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[Arijharn]

Obviously this question applies only to those who like to think about the ME world and its inhabitants with a bit more depth than having immediate fun and blowing away all those pesky Eclipse mercs, but in regards to the title consider the following: 

- Admiral Hackett was a senior member within the organisation.

- Witch-hunting for Cerberus operatives within key industrial companies of which the Alliance depends (because it's very likely to be the case) would destabilise Alliance (and thus humanity's) efforts at intergalactic politics and cause racial tensions ("You humans all support Cerberus! DIAF!") -- even if many Alliance backed programs may have done a great deal of good for not just humanity's interests and fortunes, but for the galactic community (Medi-Gel, Battle of the Citadel) and may have done so even without Cerberus influence. Remember the Cerberus Daily News when it was suggested that Cerberus operatives made their actions from certain news reports that were supposedly reported in a certain way? It lead to a huge mass of firings from supposed innocents (how innocent are journalists anyway I suppose is another matter entirely) with I think Emily Wong suggesting that if Cerberus wasn't closely tied in the media before, then after the mass firings then they'd have a good chance of being in the companies now... What I mean to say is that there'd be a huge flow on effect.

- If it was seen that many (but not all) of Cerberus' horrific experimentations did have a pay off that has helped out billions of people, aliens included. Examples could be; Medi-Gel refinements born from studying components in Thresher Maw venom, Husk-based technologies (ie, cybernetics) improving quality of life of those born with difficulties (Vrolik syndrome), better emergency response technology (offshoots from the Lazarus program)
 
- Human military forces continue to effectively protect it's colonies in large part due to Cerberus backing, and to follow on from this:

- If Narahli Bhatia's corpse was studied on by Cerberus science teams (in some manner) to better afford Alliance soldier/colony protection from highly advanced weapon designs, including those from the Geth.

- That Overlord's continued operation with the autistic David did indeed spare 'a million mothers from mourning a million sons.' To be honest; I totally feel like a complete jackass bastard (to say the least) when I leave David in that... thing, but I view it as having a huge potential from not so much making Geth humanity's lapdog, but to stave off any Geth aggression if Geth aggression would be their first response. If I was Shep though I'd make it known to Dr. Archer that his first new direction would be change the method to which David connects, then my second rule would be enforced separation time from the machine to give him some semblance of normal life as well...

[tommyt_1994]

Cerberus gets a lot of bad rep. i probably wouldn't wipe them out if all that turned out true. That would have resulted in the saving of millions of lives. That can't be som easily overlooked. They have their good and their bad, all of which can be changed I believe. People quote the thorian creepers, the rachni, the Teltin facility, Akuze, and overlord as these hugely inhumane experiments. But all of the extremely immoral experiments, weren't TIM's doings as told to us by the narrative. (which would hand wave a lot of the fear and hate of TIM) Let's look though them with all the info we have from the games:

Creepers: Exogeni sent thorian creeper (they were never human by the way, they were created by the thorian for defense) samples from Feros to Cerberus for study. That's all we know about that.

Rachni- Cerberus was looking to breed a line of shocktroopers for high risk scenarios but they didn't know how intelligent the rachni were so they abandoned them. Smart move.

Teltin: Disgusting, horrific experiments. But the narrative directly tells us that TIM didn't approve of what they were doing. They went rogue and TIM shut the project down as soon as he saw how far their experiments were.

Akuze: All we know is that an Alliance Squad was ambushed and almost entirely killed by a thresher maw and that someone survived that attack and was experimented on by a Cerberus scientist. We do not know how TIM was involved and we also do not know if Cerberus was rogue when this experiment took place. The story would indicate otherwise because Kohaku says "They have gone completely rogue" in ME1 which is after the Akuze incident. The fact that Kohaku was also stone-walled by Alliance higher ups when he wanted to investiage the deaths of his men (why would they do that) also seems to indicate that the Alliance doesn't want Cerberus being sniffed out. We really have no information on this project.

Overlord: Archer explicitly explains that he took the horrific actions without TIM's knowledge. The project did almost end in disaster, but it brought on huge results as well. I'll still end the project though.

Edit: To answer the question. if I deem them not a necessary evil anymore, I'll end them without a second thought.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Palladium_876]

I'm still wondering why cerberus even exists.

[Arijharn]

In my example though it isn't necessary to closely tie TIM's doing's into largely the business practices of Cerberus as a whole, mainly because it's irrelevant. TIM may not have given approval for the atrocities of say Pragia, but Cerberus did undertake the study regardless.



Eliminating Cerberus as a whole would (simplistically) imply that Cerberus style experimentations would cease, all my example really provided was that it would effectively bring to a stop of humanity's 'strength' of great innovation in truly unexpected avenues.



I will call a spade a spade though and will state that obviously I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a Cerberus study like Pragia, but I still view Cerberus and it's actions to be somewhat of a necessity, because no one else would do it and the First Contact War didn't really paint other species in a favourable light to us either.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Yes.



Why the witch hunt, though? Cut off the head of the snake and the body dies...

[tommyt_1994]

Arijharn wrote...

In my example though it isn't necessary to closely tie TIM's doing's into largely the business practices of Cerberus as a whole, mainly because it's irrelevant. TIM may not have given approval for the atrocities of say Pragia, but Cerberus did undertake the study regardless.

Eliminating Cerberus as a whole would (simplistically) imply that Cerberus style experimentations would cease, all my example really provided was that it would effectively bring to a stop of humanity's 'strength' of great innovation in truly unexpected avenues.

I will call a spade a spade though and will state that obviously I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a Cerberus study like Pragia, but I still view Cerberus and it's actions to be somewhat of a necessity, because no one else would do it and the First Contact War didn't really paint other species in a favourable light to us either.

As a "Cerberus isn't truly rogue" believer, I would agree with you. Many experiments are sick, yes. But we don't know how much of that is TIM/Alliance approved. It's a very supportable theory though, if Cerberus ops were sniffed out and killed within the Alliance's high ranks humans could very well be the batarians of the universe. (from an outside viewpoint and minus the slavery) Cerberus has done some evil that can't be overlooked. But the good they've done (which is possibly saving the entire galaxy by bringing back shepard) can't be forgotten either.

[fongiel24]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Yes.

Why the witch hunt, though? Cut off the head of the snake and the body dies...

But what if Cerberus is a hydra and not a snake? Cut off one head and two take its place? Since Cerberus is structured as many independent cells, linked only by TIM at the top, the removal of TIM might not necessarily shut them all down. People as ruthless, devoted, and capable as those Cerberus recruits wouldn't just roll over and die just because TIM is gone.

Taking down TIM might be a start and it would make Cerberus a much less powerful organization, but it could also make it a much more unpredictable, harder to hunt entity, particularly if the individual cells splinter into many "little Cerberuses".

[fongiel24]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Overlord: Archer explicitly explains that he took the horrific actions without TIM's knowledge. Plus, let's remember that David volunteered. The project did almost end in disaster, but it brought on huge results as well. I really don't know what I'll do when I get here on my canon.

Whoa, let's back up here. David is an autistic savant who likely functions at the level of a 6-year-old (if that). He also seems to idolize his brother. His brother could have gotten him to "volunteer" for anything. If David had the mental capacity to truly comprehend what he was signing up for, I seriously doubt he would have agreed to it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nah, TIM's charisma is the force that pulls it all together. Well, that and his financial recourses.

[tommyt_1994]

fongiel24 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Overlord: Archer explicitly explains that he took the horrific actions without TIM's knowledge. Plus, let's remember that David volunteered. The project did almost end in disaster, but it brought on huge results as well. I really don't know what I'll do when I get here on my canon.

Whoa, let's back up here. David is an autistic savant who likely functions at the level of a 6-year-old (if that). He also seems to idolize his brother. His brother could have gotten him to "volunteer" for anything. If David had the mental capacity to truly comprehend what he was signing up for, I seriously doubt he would have agreed to it.

Ohhh apparently I missed something. I've only played Overlord once but I thought I had it all down I've been in several discussion about it though, apparenlty I didn't have all the info. My apoligies.

[fongiel24]

Consider a real world organization that is set up along the lines of a similar cell structure - al-Qaeda. Almost ten years ago, the United States invaded Afghanistan and sent Osama bin Laden and the rest of al-Qaeda's senior leadership into hiding. They might not have killed them, but the invasion seriously compromised their ability to coordinate their organization. The head of the snake was effectively chopped off.

What happened? Did al-Qaeda crumble and disappear? No, it was weakened, unable to plan and carry out plots on the scale of the 9/11 attacks, but it also fractured into dozens of subfactions that have proven even harder to root out than the original organization.

TIM's charisma is what has allowed Cerberus to grow to the scale it has but even if TIM is killed, there will still be people who hold his views and have the skills to continue his work. TIM also doesn't provide all of Cerberus' financial backing. Killing TIM doesn't eliminate Cerberus' financial backers. Some of them might withdraw their funding because they don't trust TIM's successors, but there will still be enough who believe in TIM's vision to continue to support it financially.

Human supremacy isn't an artificial cause that TIM invented. There will still be human supremacists even if we take him out of the picture.

Modifié par fongiel24, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Arijharn]

Kaiser, you would still hit Cerberus and destroy it even if it could risk economic ruin and all the effects that brings?



Damn, you are braver than me by far. I might try to excise some of Cerberus' excesses, but I wouldn't be able to bring myself to slay the beast itself, for all I know it could be the only thing holding up the cave.

[AdamNW]

I don't think anything could persuade me to keep it around.

Also, there is no logical way that Witch Hunt thing would cause racial tension.

Modifié par AdamNW, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Slayer299]

Arijharn wrote...
- That Overlord's continued operation with the autistic David did indeed spare 'a million mothers from mourning a million sons.' To be honest; I totally feel like a complete jackass bastard (to say the least) when I leave David in that... thing, but I view it as having a huge potential from not so much making Geth humanity's lapdog, but to stave off any Geth aggression if Geth aggression would be their first response. If I was Shep though I'd make it known to Dr. Archer that his first new direction would be change the method to which David connects, then my second rule would be enforced separation time from the machine to give him some semblance of normal life as well...

If I believed it would stop such experiments as Teltin and Overlord? I'd push the button/pull the trigger without a blink. Because there is absolutely, ZERO justification for either those cases or the multitude of other atrocities that Cerberus has committed in the name of *humanity*. Whatever the gains were or were wanted is irrelevant once that line of abandoning ones humanity is crossed. Renegades can bluster all that they choose about the ends justifying the mans or whatever else they choose to use to show their extreme decisions are in the best interests of humanity, but its all just excuses.

tommyt_1994 wrote...
Overlord: Archer explicitly explains that he took the horrific actions
without TIM's knowledge. Plus, let's remember that David volunteered.
The project did almost end in disaster, but it brought on huge results
as well. I really don't know what I'll do when I get here on my canon.

David is autistic, that means that he's not going to understand what it means beyond he's helping his brother. So, the justification that David volunteered is a sop for Archer's conscience (and any other person who chooses to accept that line) not a statement that David understood one iota of what volunteering meant or what dangers there might be.

Cerberus in its present from is a threat to all of humanity and it needs to be treated as such....

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

Kaiser, you would still hit Cerberus and destroy it even if it could risk economic ruin and all the effects that brings.

As long as I can look good (as in stylish, not Paragon) while doing it, yes.

However, becoming the head of the snake myself is something worthy of doing. Hell, I'd say it's one of only two ME3 ending/epilogues I'd be truly content with, the other being an ultimate sacrifice.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Arijharn]

AdamNW wrote...
Also, there is no logical way that Witch Hunt thing would cause racial tension.

Of course it would, consider huge companies with staff from all racial (when I say 'racial' in this context I mean species... apologies for any confusion) types. If one senior manager is implicated, whose to believe that others wouldn't be suggested as well? Considering the size of Cerberus, at what ratio do you think that all those that stand accused would actually be a part of Cerberus stands to be?

Lets think of it this way (and even then it isn't correct even remotely):
All Cerberus employees are rich men, but not all rich men are Cerberus employees.

[Arijharn]

Slayer299 wrote...
If I believed it would stop such experiments as Teltin and Overlord? I'd push the button/pull the trigger without a blink. Because there is absolutely, ZERO justification for either those cases or the multitude of other atrocities that Cerberus has committed in the name of *humanity*. Whatever the gains were or were wanted is irrelevant once that line of abandoning ones humanity is crossed. Renegades can bluster all that they choose about the ends justifying the mans or whatever else they choose to use to show their extreme decisions are in the best interests of humanity, but its all just excuses.

The problem is, that even though you obviously vehemently disagree, they're doing it for 'humanity' as well. Why is it for them just an 'excuse' whereas for you it's obvious? Do you see what I mean? Or is it because you feel that justice is on your side? If so, why do you think that they do not have justice on their's?

My point being, justice is purely within the view of the beholder, they aren't doing their crimes for giggles. They aren't doing it for the sake of being bad, they're doing it for a sense of altruism, even if you think that's been grossly skewed. 

Cerberus in its present from is a threat to all of humanity and it needs to be treated as such....

I think it's because Cerberus is in it's present form that it's been 'successful.' It gets things done, it proved for example that humanity can produce super-biotics, it proved that it was possible to bring back someone from the dead (and come on, isn't that the holy grail in the field of medicine? How would you feel if that study killed 5+ people to get you to come back for example?), hell it even proved that they could control the Geth, it even reacted when human Terminus colonies started to disappear.

[Slayer299]

My point being, justice is purely within the view of the beholder, they aren't doing their crimes for giggles. They aren't doing it for the sake of being bad, they're doing it for a sense of altruism, even if you think that's been grossly skewed. 

I never thought the acts are being done for giggles. Altruism is "unselfish concern or devotion for others".  The last time I checked the torture/experimentation of children or adults (David) does not come anywhere near the definition of that. As how can one claim to have altruistic motives when you (or the organization) commit such acts without a second glance beyond that shred of a claim?

I think it's because Cerberus is in it's present form that it's been 'successful.' It gets things done, it proved for example that humanity can produce super-biotics, it proved that it was possible to bring back someone from the dead (and come on, isn't that the holy grail in the field of medicine? How would you feel if that study killed 5+ people to get you to come back for example?), hell it even proved that they could control the Geth, it even reacted when human Terminus colonies started to disappear.

And as its been said, the problem with Cerberus is that it does not care about the methods taken to get whatever results they want. Cerberus', successes, comes with a price tag that is constantly being justified as *acceptable*, irregardless of the deaths they cause. 

As for your question about the study, I wouldn't want 5 other people to die to bring me back from death. Thus far, the only 2 acts in Cerberus' favor are the Lazarus Project and their reaction to the disappearing human colonists in the Terminus..

Cerberus' goals aren't the problem, it's the means with which they choose to accomplish those goals at any cost.

[Arijharn]

How I define their actions as being somewhat altruistic is because of where they're sitting. They're doing it not for personal glory (how much in the lecture circuits do you think that the successful resurrection of someone would be worth? My personal opinion? A tonne. The person would not need to work ever again, and I doubt his/her children would either. They would be very very wealthy and if they did decide to work, they'd have the pick of the crop) but for their faith in humanity itself. Cerberus being what it is means that they could never take credit for the fruits of Lazarus etc.



Of course, no one wants likes the idea that people died to bring you back, but what if they did? Would that change things?



How would Cerberus be able to perform their goals if by not using the methods they did? If Pragia was to create super-biotics by manipulating anger and fear, then how would they realistically be able to produce emotional response in their biotics utilising anger and fear by not inducing anger or fear? This is besides the point that I personally see no real benefit in purposely testing for it as opposed to just collating results from actual Alliance biotic users who experience those actions in combat, but I'm inclined to think Pragia was included for the sake of mad scientist influence more than anything else.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Wiping out Cerberus doesn't necessarily mean wiping out their backers

[Nightwriter]

No.

However, the realistic likelihood of all those things being the case? Slim.

[Slayer299]

Arijharn wrote...
How I define their actions as being somewhat altruistic is because of where they're sitting. They're doing it not for personal glory (how much in the lecture circuits do you think that the successful resurrection of someone would be worth? My personal opinion? A tonne. The person would not need to work ever again, and I doubt his/her children would either. They would be very very wealthy and if they did decide to work, they'd have the pick of the crop) but for their faith in humanity itself. Cerberus being what it is means that they could never take credit for the fruits of Lazarus etc.

Of course, no one wants likes the idea that people died to bring you back, but what if they did? Would that change things?

For me, yes. It makes it unacceptable.

How would Cerberus be able to perform their goals if by not using the methods they did? If Pragia was to create super-biotics by manipulating anger and fear, then how would they realistically be able to produce emotional response in their biotics utilising anger and fear by not inducing anger or fear? This is besides the point that I personally see no real benefit in purposely testing for it as opposed to just collating results from actual Alliance biotic users who experience those actions in combat, but I'm inclined to think Pragia was included for the sake of mad scientist influence more than anything else.

Well, obviously, their ability to meet those goals would be greatly reduced. But as I said earlier, it's not the goals that are the problem, its the methods of 'whatever it takes to work is fine' that are.
Example - Project Overlord's goal was a good one, the problem was when Dr. Archer hooked his autistic brother up to the machine and no-one said 'boo' and by no-one I mean anyone working directly with him. What stopped *anyone* from dialing up TIM. Personally, I would have wanted a third option resolution in Ovelord which was to shoot Archer and take David away, at that point I wouldn't have trusted a cactus, much less another mammal to Archer. (Which is a credit to Bioware's writers)

Cerberus has no checks/safe-guards to prevent anything like this from happening on a regular basis.
Creating super-biotics on par with Asari - GOOD. Teltin - Not.

Edit - fixed formatting

Modifié par Slayer299, 22 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Elite Midget]

I wont put a bullet in all members of the organization only the top leaders that run the thing.

That's like saying we should just let corruption and inhumane things occure because they might do some good at the high cost of tons of unethical things.

[Slayer299]

When I was talking about pulling the trigger, I didn't mean the peons.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

that should be considered some guy's personal interest and not their professional concerns