119 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I'm sure they could think of all kinds of reasons in their defense. Like, tons of lives depend upon Shepard, so it isn't justifiable that Shepard be used as a test subject.

[fongiel24]

Slayer299 wrote...

Cerberus' 'ends justifies the means' reasoning might not have held water before, but now that the stakes have become literally life-or-death, the equation has changed so that the 'ends justifies the means' is a viable justification for everyone fighting the Reapers, not just Cerberus.

But that's isn't the point however. It's not whether Cerberus' methods are acceptable now because of the Reapers, because Cerberus was like this before they even *knew* about the Reapers! So how does the 'ends justify the means' become acceptable when the Reapers aren't even in the picture?

Even if the Reapers aren't in the picture, humanity is still in a vulnerable position. There might not be the imminent threat of extinction hanging over its head, but it's still the new kid on the block whom a lot of aliens at best see as overly ambitious and impulsive, and at worse think is a dangerously unpredictable threat to galactic peace. There's lots of aliens who don't like us and the Council hasn't always been forecoming with assistance in the past.

While the Alliance has the military and diplomatic strength to ward off clear, open threats, it doesn't seem like it has anything to match more underhanded threats. Species that rely primarily on massed military force are rare in the galaxy, limited to the turians and the krogan. Espionage and commando raids seem to be the preferred strategy for most races like the asari, salarians, and batarians. We can probably also include the volus, elcor, and hanar in this latter group due to their limited military capabilities.

Unfortunately, having only recently joined the galactic community, humanity lacks the experience other races do and hasn't had nearly as much time to establish extensive intelligence networks, foster contacts, etc. Humanity is thus weakest in precisely the areas that Cerberus specializes in - cloak-and-dagger work.

Seen in this light, Cerberus' ends may very well justify its means, depending on what threats humanity is facing. Since ME is naturally Shepard and Reaper focused, we don't have enough information on this.

Funny, I didn't see TIM down there next to Shep as she fought her way across the colony. And its funny you want to give TIM credit when it was his release of information that brought the Collectors there in the first place.

The resources Cerberus provides Shepard (resurrection, ship, crew, initial leads) are essential to Shepard doing anything. No Cerberus, no ME2. TIM may have lured the Collectors to Horizon, but as he correctly reasons, if it wasn't Horizon it would have been somewhere else. By luring the Collectors to Horizon while sending Shepard there at the same time, he was at least able to minimize the damage. Also in the end, Cerberus' backing of Shepard allowed the latter to end the Collector threat once and for all.

The point if this thread was would you wipe out Cerberus if the Reapers were no longer a threat.

I'm certain that all the humans and *children* who've been tortured, murdered and experimented on will just feel 'oh so much better' with the news that they've helped humanity and others.

Its laudable they accomplished some worthwhile things, the problem is the costs for those *accomplishments* are always ankle deep in blood....

Edit - fixed formatting

That depends how much you care about Cerberus being ankle deep in blood. I'm not saying I'm perfectly okay with it, but sometimes it really is impossible to make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.

[Xilizhra]

There might not be the imminent threat of extinction hanging over its head, but it's still the new kid on the block whom a lot of aliens at best see as overly ambitious and impulsive, and at worse think is a dangerously unpredictable threat to galactic peace.

And Cerberus proves them right.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...

I want to know how many of the Cerberus supporters here would volunteer as test subjects for such experiments. The arguement is that this is neccessary research, correct? So they should feel it their duty to volunteer, right?

Honestly? I would. It would depend I guess on how much simulation they've done beforehand though to be comfortable with their results?

Why would I volunteer you ask? Because I identify with transhumanism I guess. My concepts of humanity are not confined to how many fingers and toes I have, or so much our physical appearance, but who we are as individuals, what our ego's are that make us who we are.

Having said that, I'm not so much a gung ho Cerberus supporter as such someone who thinks that in this situation if there was one would necessitate the blurring of the lines between right and wrong. I will work and support with Cerberus for as long as possible and unless Cerberus does something untoward, I'd generally just tacitly allow them to continue to exist (i.e., turn a blind eye).

At the end of the day, I think that in some form, Cerberus is needed.

Xilihzra wrote...
And Cerberus proves them right.

The problem is of course that people thought humanity were violent upstarts the moment humanity had the audacity to activate an unknown Mass Relay before humanity knew other species existed, let alone the Citadel Conventions. As much as that coloured other species opinions of us, it coloured our opinions of them as much.

Why should humanity be the only ones 'suing for peace' to paraphrase Legion, if there is no real compulsion for other species to follow suit? Humanity must protect humanity's interests, because as demonstrated repeatedly in the past, the Council wont.

Besides, I find it unlikely to the extreme that various Cerberus type organisations for the other species don't exist anyway, and there's could be just as villainous as ours and have governmental oversight.

[Xilizhra]

Why should humanity be the only ones 'suing for peace' to paraphrase Legion, if there is no real compulsion for other species to follow suit? Humanity must protect humanity's interests, because as demonstrated repeatedly in the past, the Council wont.

Define "protecting our interests" and why the Alliance can't do it alone.

Besides, I find it unlikely to the extreme that various Cerberus type organisations for the other species don't exist anyway, and there's could be just as villainous as ours and have governmental oversight.

There are commandos and the STG, but I rather doubt that either one is as villainous.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus proves the new kid on the block won't be an errand boy for the local bullies.

[Xilizhra]

If we don't want to play by the Council's rules, we can close our embassy and keep to ourselves.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...
There are commandos and the STG, but I rather doubt that either one is as villainous.

Of course not, they're government sanctioned. it's because they're government sanctioned that they can't be villainous -- in the sense of public perception anyway.

[philiposophy]

Let's not forget that the STG are perfectly willing to get their hands dirty to get things done. They manufactured the genophage, after all.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

If we don't want to play by the Council's rules, we can close our embassy and keep to ourselves.

We do want to play by their rules, because we like trade and the wealth it brings. That doesn't mean we should resign ourselves completely to their nebulous whims and demands though. We are not their servants for a want of a better term, we'd like to be equals.

Our seat on the Council (or our ownership of it) wasn't built by us playing nice really, we either shocked them because one of our best and brightest managed to hunt down and slay their best and brightest or because we strong armed our way into superiority by sacrificing the last old boys club.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

If we don't want to play by the Council's rules, we can close our embassy and keep to ourselves.

You mean the Human-led Council?

Look, the aliens had their shot at us. Good thing they missed, even for themselves, 'cause if they didn't, everybody would've been Reaper chow by now. But now, Reapers or not, they all will play by our rules, and Cebrerus will make them. Anyone not liking that is welcome to take Saren's paragon self-interrupt.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Xilizhra]

We do want to play by their rules, because we like trade and the wealth it brings. That doesn't mean we should resign ourselves completely to their nebulous whims and demands though. We are not their servants for a want of a better term, we'd like to be equals.

Then we play well enough for them to want to make us their equals, a la the turians.

You mean the Human-led Council?



Look, the aliens had their shot at us. Good thing they missed, even for themselves, 'cause if they didn't, everybody would've been Reaper chow by now. But now, Reapers or not, they all Anywill play by our rules, and Cebrerus will make them. Anyone not liking that is welcome to take Saren's paragon self-interrupt.

Forgive me if I'm not playing according to your little supremacist ****** fantasy. Especially because we're talking about Cerberus in normal times, and not Reaper ones.

[Slayer299]

Even if the Reapers aren't in the picture, humanity is still in a vulnerable position. There might not be the imminent threat of extinction hanging over its head, but it's still the new kid on the block whom a lot of aliens at best see as overly ambitious and impulsive, and at worse think is a dangerously unpredictable threat to galactic peace. There's lots of aliens who don't like us and the Council hasn't always been forecoming with assistance in the past.

And so we pull out the inevitable 'but there's someone bigger/meaner/tougher than us' trend of thought. There's always going to be someone around the corner who can potentially be a threat. So with that in mind then we should just accept that the inevitable *sacrifices* are just that...inevitable. Humans don't really have any rights as long as their lives serve the greater good of the 'state'....hmmm, sounds familiar somewhere

While the Alliance has the military and diplomatic strength to ward off clear, open threats, it doesn't seem like it has anything to match more underhanded threats. Species that rely primarily on massed military force are rare in the galaxy, limited to the turians and the krogan. Espionage and commando raids seem to be the preferred strategy for most races like the asari, salarians, and batarians. We can probably also include the volus, elcor, and hanar in this latter group due to their limited military capabilities.

Okay, explain to me in non-jingoistic terms exactly how torturing and murdering children is going to help humanity in 'underhanded threats' from other races?

Unfortunately, having only recently joined the galactic community, humanity lacks the experience other races do and hasn't had nearly as much time to establish extensive intelligence networks, foster contacts, etc. Humanity is thus weakest in precisely the areas that Cerberus specializes in - cloak-and-dagger work.

Seen in this light, Cerberus' ends may very well justify its means, depending on what threats humanity is facing. Since ME is naturally Shepard and Reaper focused, we don't have enough information on this.

Well then, the *Alliance* better have itself working to create those intelligenc networks then, shouldn't it? And we're back once again to 'the ends justify the means'. Not that Cerberus' laundry list of acts of horror on *humans* makes any sense in the intelligence arena. Teltin and Overlord are really gonna help us with espionage, right? 

The resources Cerberus provides Shepard (resurrection, ship, crew, initial leads) are essential to Shepard doing anything. No Cerberus, no ME2. TIM may have lured the Collectors to Horizon, but as he correctly reasons, if it wasn't Horizon it would have been somewhere else. By luring the Collectors to Horizon while sending Shepard there at the same time, he was at least able to minimize the damage. Also in the end, Cerberus' backing of Shepard allowed the latter to end the Collector threat once and for all.

I will grant you that Cerberus provided the resources you needed initially, but Cerberus is not the one who went to the Collector Base, Shep did that. But that's neither here nor there.

That depends how much you care about Cerberus being ankle deep in blood. I'm not saying I'm perfectly okay with it, but sometimes it really is impossible to make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.

Actually I care a lot about being ankle deep in blood and I don't support Cerberus means or methods one iota. As I said initially, I'm not against Cerberus' stated goals for humanity, its their methods that need to be altered one way or another.

You're not 'perfectly okay with it', but you're comparing human lives to some eggs...

Edit - fixed formatting

Modifié par Slayer299, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:46 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]You mean the Human-led Council?

Look, the aliens had their shot at us. Good thing they missed, even for themselves, 'cause if they didn't, everybody would've been Reaper chow by now. But now, Reapers or not, they all will play by our rules, and Cebrerus will make them. Anyone not liking that is welcome to take Saren's paragon self-interrupt.[/quote]
Forgive me if I'm not playing according to your little supremacist ****** fantasy. Especially because we're talking about Cerberus in normal times, and not Reaper ones.[/quote]

Forgive me if I'm not playing according to your  little "Alianz R kewl - screw teh humons" ****** fantasy. I happen to be playing pretty close to the Default Scenario - just sayin'. And I was just sayin' about the Reapers too, as I believe was clear form the "Reapers or not" part.

So yes, the aliens had their shot at us. They missed, and now they will all play by our rules. Cerberus is just there to make sure of it.[/quote]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

I've never played a human-screwer and never will, fear not. Also, default does not mean canon; if anything, considering the much larger amount of content for it, total Paragon is.



Regardless, in my own situation, I still have the Council around, and Cerberus is a liability to galactic peace.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

I want to know how many of the Cerberus supporters here would volunteer as test subjects for such experiments. The arguement is that this is neccessary research, correct? So they should feel it their duty to volunteer, right?

Can you give a basis for why the two must be connected, other than a vague 'if they don't say yes to both, they must be hypocrites neenirneenir'?

[fongiel24]

Slayer299 wrote...

And so we pull out the inevitable 'but there's someone bigger/meaner/tougher than us' trend of thought. There's always going to be someone around the corner who can potentially be a threat. So with that in mind then we should just accept that the inevitable *sacrifices* are just that...inevitable. Humans don't really have any rights as long as their lives serve the greater good of the 'state'....hmmm, sounds familiar somewhere

It sounds familiar because every major power in the history of the world has thought this way to some degree. It's hard to keep up with everyone else if you insist on abiding by a set of arbitrary rules and constraints on behaviour that the other side won't, particularly if you don't possess any appreciable advantages in any other areas. 

Okay, explain to me in non-jingoistic terms exactly how torturing and murdering children is going to help humanity in 'underhanded threats' from other races?

Who said "underhanded" is jingoistic? We do the same things too. The asari are the most powerful biotics in the galaxy. Humanity has to level the playing field somehow. Cerberus tried to cut some corners to do so. They went too far in doing so, but their ends are understandable, even if the means are not.  

Well then, the *Alliance* better have itself working to create those intelligenc networks then, shouldn't it? And we're back once again to 'the ends justify the means'. Not that Cerberus' laundry list of acts of horror on *humans* makes any sense in the intelligence arena. Teltin and Overlord are really gonna help us with espionage, right? 

The Alliance doesn't have anything which can match the effectiveness of Cerberus in the latter's areas of expertise. If it did, Cerberus wouldn't have so many backers. First of all, you can't keep bringing up Teltin and Overlord because neither of these are confirmed to be sanctioned by TIM. We can speculate that TIM is just misleading Shepard to make Cerberus look less extreme, but there's no actual evidence to support this. Secondly, superpowered biotics and human-controlled geth forces do have considerable strategic value.

Actually I care a lot about being ankle deep in blood and I don't support Cerberus means or methods one iota. As I said initially, I'm not against Cerberus' stated goals for humanity, its their methods that need to be altered one way or another.

Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument. Your opinion still doesn't invalidate the argument that some of what Cerberus does might be necessary any more than mine is able to prove it. We don't know enough to conclusively say what the ME universe looks like.

You're not 'perfectly okay with it', but you're comparing human lives to some eggs...

It's a commonly used metaphor. Would you like me to spell it out directly? This is geopolitics on a galactic scale. It's not always possible to avoid bloodshed. Some of Cerberus' experiments go too far, but almost everything they do has to skirt the boundaries of ethical and moral behaviour. Even if Cerberus cuts out the really insane projects (which I'm not arguing they shouldn't), they'll always have to do some shady things.

Modifié par fongiel24, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Slayer299]

fongiel24 wrote...
It sounds familiar because every major power in the history of the world has thought this way to some degree. It's hard to keep up with everyone else if you insist on abiding by a set of arbitrary rules and constraints on behaviour that the other side won't, particularly if you don't possess any appreciable advantages in any other areas. 

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that morals were arbitrary....

Who said "underhanded" is jingoistic? We do the same things too. The asari are the most powerful biotics in the galaxy. Humanity has to level the playing field somehow. Cerberus tried to cut some corners to do so. They went too far in doing so, but their ends are understandable, even if the means are not.  

I seem to have been unclear. I did not mean that underhanded is jingoisitic, but rather the use of jingoistic phrases when justifying actions that used to justify their actions.

The Alliance doesn't have anything which can match the effectiveness of Cerberus in the latter's areas of expertise. If it did, Cerberus wouldn't have so many backers. First of all, you can't keep bringing up Teltin and Overlord because neither of these are confirmed to be sanctioned by TIM. We can speculate that TIM is just misleading Shepard to make Cerberus look less extreme, but there's no actual evidence to support this. Secondly, superpowered biotics and human-controlled geth forces do have considerable strategic value.

While I can technically agree with you about Teltin, how can you say that Overlord was a rogue operation? And I keep bringing them up because of what occurred at those two sites. One was the toture, experimentation of children to *try* and make powerful biotics. The other was very near to being a galaxy-wide disaster that would have crippled civilization. Besides have you ever spoken to EDI after she's *unshackled* and how TIM likes to keep the total number of cells small so that he can maintain oversight. So, I fail to understand your reasoning.

Again, I said nothing about 'strategic' value with regards to those two, but you seem to be quite comfortable with the methods used since they both had 'strategic value'.

Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument. Your opinion still doesn't invalidate the argument that some of what Cerberus does might be necessary any more than mine is able to prove it. We don't know enough to conclusively say what the ME universe looks like.

Of course it invalidates what Cerberus is doing, because its methods are *wrong*!  You keep justifying Cerberus actions with the same mindset phrases of 'the ends justify the means', that whatever actions Cerberus takes is in humanities benefit. But when did torture and murder become acceptable?

It's a commonly used metaphor. Would you like me to spell it out directly? This is geopolitics on a galactic scale. It's not always possible to avoid bloodshed. Some of Cerberus' experiments go too far, but almost everything they do has to skirt the boundaries of ethical and moral behaviour. Even if Cerberus cuts out the really insane projects (which I'm not arguing they shouldn't), they'll always have to do some shady things.

Cerberus is *not* humanity nor a govermental body, it is a private organization that has nothing to do with geopolitics. And all of Cerberus' experiments go too far, as a results only organization there is no middle range, its all or nothing and those are the ones that almost always end catastrophically for all involved, which we have seen again and again and again and again.....

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Slayer299 wrote...
I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that morals were arbitrary....
[/quote]Of course they are. There is no inherent morality we naturally have: children don't come up certain 'this is bad', they are taught it. Morals are culturally-varrying as well, taught from outside influences.


Arbitrary does not, however, mean invalid. Reciprocacity is a obvious basis for building moral systems from.

[quote]
I seem to have been unclear. I did not mean that underhanded is jingoisitic, but rather the use of jingoistic phrases when justifying actions that used to justify their actions. [/quote]Still not clear, I'm afraid.

[quote]
While I can technically agree with you about Teltin, how can you say that Overlord was a rogue operation? And I keep bringing them up because of what occurred at those two sites. One was the toture, experimentation of children to *try* and make powerful biotics. The other was very near to being a galaxy-wide disaster that would have crippled civilization. [/quote]And neither of them were sanctioned Cerberus policy. In Teltin they hid their actions from TIM and Cerberus, undeniable indications of wrongdoing. In Overlord, Asher admits to not having told TIM what he was doing (intending to brief it in a later, never realized presentation), and we also hear that he defied rules to do so.

[quote]Besides have you ever spoken to EDI after she's *unshackled* and how TIM likes to keep the total number of cells small so that he can maintain oversight. So, I fail to understand your reasoning. [/quote]Do you also notice how she does not contest any of the admissions uncovered in any of the projects? Teltin was long before EDI was made, and may have been one of the reasons for such a policy.
[quote]
Again, I said nothing about 'strategic' value with regards to those two, but you seem to be quite comfortable with the methods used since they both had 'strategic value'. [/quote]Being comfortable does not mean not accepting. It never has.

Utility has a morality all of its own. We, as a civilization, already accept that smaller evils now are justified to prevent larger evils later: the imposition of restrictions on what we can do in the name of safety, the right for governments to maintain and use armies, romanticised vigilantiism in culture. Differences in acceptablitiliy will always be argued, but greater threats allow for greater costs.

[quote]
Of course it invalidates what Cerberus is doing, because its methods are *wrong*!  You keep justifying Cerberus actions with the same mindset phrases of 'the ends justify the means', that whatever actions Cerberus takes is in humanities benefit. But when did torture and murder become acceptable? [/quote]When they could prevent massacre, genocide, and otherwise far more loss of life. Something even the European Union accepts privately, if not publicly.


[quote]
Cerberus is *not* humanity nor a govermental body, it is a private organization that has nothing to do with geopolitics. Simply because it is not governmental does not mean it does not have an interest or influence in geo(spatial?)politics.

[quote]
And all of Cerberus' experiments go too far, as a results only
organization there is no middle range, its all or nothing and those are
the ones that almost always end catastrophically for all involved, which
we have seen again and again and again and again.....
[/quote]
How did Lazarus experiement go too far? Firewalker? The Arc Projector project? Cerberus armor? TIM's spy net? 

Hell, how were experiments on Thorians too far? Thorians are just thralls.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sure they could think of all kinds of reasons in their defense. Like, tons of lives depend upon Shepard, so it isn't justifiable that Shepard be used as a test subject.

But is anyone really anything other than 'expendable' using the logic presented? Shepard has been affected by the beacon. Doesn't that make him a more important test subject?

Who chooses who becomes a test subject rather than the tester?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus proves the new kid on the block won't be an errand boy for the local bullies.

That might be a meaningful arguement if the locals were really bullies as opposed to not giving their lunch money to the whiney newcommer.

In addtion the 'new guy' is reacting to 'local bullies' by bullying his family (extreme experiments on fellow humans).

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

I want to know how many of the Cerberus supporters here would volunteer as test subjects for such experiments. The arguement is that this is neccessary research, correct? So they should feel it their duty to volunteer, right?

Can you give a basis for why the two must be connected, other than a vague 'if they don't say yes to both, they must be hypocrites neenirneenir'?

The tests that are allegedly neccessary require test subjects. For the most part Cerberus does not use volunteers, they use whoever is available.

Assuming that they do use volunteers though, if the research is really that neccessary, wouldn't it be the duty of everyone in support of said neccessity to line up to volunteer? If they are not, how 'neccessary' do the really feel it is?

It is much easier to be in favour of the sacrifices of others than of yourself.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus proves the new kid on the block won't be an errand boy for the local bullies.

That might be a meaningful arguement if the locals were really bullies as opposed to not giving their lunch money to the whiney newcommer.

In addtion the 'new guy' is reacting to 'local bullies' by bullying his family (extreme experiments on fellow humans).

You are perverting the analogy. Cerberus isn't the "new kid". Mankind is. And Cerberus is this kid's intelligence.

As for the evil experimnets: "no pain, no gain", they say.

[GuardianAngel470]

I'd like to reiterate how silly I find any action taken against Cerberus because of their moral ambiguity. This is War for the survival of all life everywhere, morals take a back seat to logic. You need to do what you need to do to survive, it's like eating the elderly in a survival situation or cutting off your arm to get out from under a fallen boulder. Despite how loathsome cannibalism is to most of the world, in a survival situation you do what you have to.



That said, I would destroy Cerberus without a second thought if I were given the opportunity. They're reckless, they take unnecessary risks towards goals that make no sense. They also don't prepare properly for possible failure scenarios. They act as if Murphy's Law has never entered their brains.



After a long series of catastrophes regarding experiments gone wrong because the operatives in the cells went essentially rogue, you would expect TIM to wise up and take a more active role of operations.



Their track record is appalling. I've never heard of an organization with more failures and more fatal results be defended so vehemently. Let's ignore the moral implications for a moment while we look at some of Cerberus' past operations.



Rachni: Seriously, did they not read the history books? The rachni were a SPACE FARING species when they were discovered. How could they possibly assume they weren't intelligent? It's as if they were taken completely unawares. Their space station was overrun and the rachni spread out into the galaxy. All operatives were killed.



Thorian Creepers: Based on what ExoGeni was doing with Zu's Hope, Cerberus should have known that the Thorian exerted control of subjects and thralls telepathically. What could they honestly hope to gain? Shock troops? Whatever it was they were trying to do, they failed because of an obvious connection. If they really wanted expendable shock troops, why not an AI controlled army of Mechs? So far, EDI has proved willing to help and overall benign, it seems this would be the best option.



Husks: A bit more ambiguous, given the fact that understanding husks is important. However, they were again being used as shock troops, so it wasn't an academic pursuit but a military one, which is stupid. The husks can't be controlled currently and even if they could they'd require a human or otherwise body for each husk, and if you simply trained that person with a weapon and tactics, they would be more effective.



Jack: Seriously, the experiments conducted here were moronic. Lower core temperatures to see what it would do? We already know what that would do, it would kill them. You can't use a corpse for biotics, no matter what biotic benefit is gained. And the fact that TIM didn't know what was happening is either suspicious or simply indicative of a larger problem.



Lazarus: Shepard is by far the most important person in the galaxy. As is later discovered, the geth want his leadership, the krogan leader owes him loyalty, paragons have the rachni, and all around species answer to him. So why, if he is so important, didn't TIM ensure that security clearances were adequately investigated? My dad works for the military as a private contractor, from his description of security clearance questions, Wilson would have been caught before he could be a problem. They could also have prepared better against the possibility of infiltration. Yes, Shep was saved, but every other person on the station was killed. Not exactly a rousing success.



Grayson: This one is from the novel Retribution. TIM injects a former operative with Reaper self-replicating nanotechnology and sticks around to watch because Grayson betrayed him. That in and of itself is indicative that TIM isn't the ruthlessly logical character he wants you to believe he is. The only real protection against unforseen circumstances is an assassin named Kai Leng, ex N7. TIM and Leng sit there and study Grayson, help along his eventual possession with drugs, and when turians attack the station they are completely unprepared to eliminate Grayson. One would think that when dealing with Reaper tech in any form the best course of action is extensive preparation and failsafe systems. There were none. No remote activated plasma jets, no atmosphere venting system, no station self destruct, nothing. Once Leng is separated from Grayson, there were no other options.



TIM and Cerberus don't prepare for the unforeseen, they don't consider that "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong". They simply charge ahead with no regards to safety, no regards to the consequences of failure, just the end goal and how to reach it the fastest and the easiest.



I'm all for unethical experiments if they are done safely and actually provide something useful. As I said, in survival situations, morals get thrown out the window and run over with a semi packed with elephants.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus proves the new kid on the block won't be an errand boy for the local bullies.

That might be a meaningful arguement if the locals were really bullies as opposed to not giving their lunch money to the whiney newcommer.

In addtion the 'new guy' is reacting to 'local bullies' by bullying his family (extreme experiments on fellow humans).

You are perverting the analogy. Cerberus isn't the "new kid". Mankind is. And Cerberus is this kid's intelligence.

As for the evil experimnets: "no pain, no gain", they say.

Pardon, but Cerberus claims to represent mankind and certainly isn't any older than Humanity. What did you mean by 'cerberus proves the new kid on the block won't be an errand boy for the local bullies?' If Cerberus isn't even representing the 'new guy', who are Cerberus representing and how are they proving anything?

Or do you mean that Cerberus is proving that Humanity won't be kicked around by Cerberus, who are acting like a local bully?
 
Lol... If Cerberus is mankind's intelligence, what does that say for the fact that Cerberus is operating independantly of mankind and often against mankind? Are you saying that mankind has a brain disorder called Cerberus? Seriously, your analogy needs work.