119 réponses à ce sujet

[fongiel24]

My thinking is that although Cerberus does serve an essential role for the Alliance, doing the black ops, grey area stuff, shouldn't the Alliance be doing this for themselves? I think it's pretty obvious the Alliance isn't because otherwise so many people wouldn't be backing Cerberus.



Black ops groups like Cerberus don't work well when they're not under the control of a government because although it's expected that sometimes they'll have to skirt the line or even cross it, government oversight (even if it's limited) prevents them from going too far over it. Cerberus' problem isn't that it sometimes goes over the line. It's the degree to which it does.

[Moiaussi]

fongiel24 wrote...

My thinking is that although Cerberus does serve an essential role for the Alliance, doing the black ops, grey area stuff, shouldn't the Alliance be doing this for themselves? I think it's pretty obvious the Alliance isn't because otherwise so many people wouldn't be backing Cerberus.

Black ops groups like Cerberus don't work well when they're not under the control of a government because although it's expected that sometimes they'll have to skirt the line or even cross it, government oversight (even if it's limited) prevents them from going too far over it. Cerberus' problem isn't that it sometimes goes over the line. It's the degree to which it does.

The existance of the CIA does not reassure nor prevent paramilitary or survivlist movements from cropping up in the US. The S.A.S. did not convince either side of the Irish conflict to leave it all to them. Even Canada had the FLQ crisis. Greenpeace probably counts as an example too, in at least some of their operations.

There are always times in history when certain factions in the populace feel the government is not doing enough and that 'drastic measures' are needed. Sometimes radical measures are needed, but more often than not that is simply an assumption on the part of the rogue organization.

[Jacen987]

Oh please,Cerberus is so obviously evil,they might as well have "Evil" written on their uniforms.One or 2 projects i can overlook but come on.After a while,you really must turn around and smell the bull coming from every explanations.

[Dave of Canada]

Jacen987 wrote...

Oh please,Cerberus is so obviously evil,they might as well have "Evil" written on their uniforms.

I don't see how being radical makes one evil.

[Ryzaki]

They are terrorists though.



...I mean when the people working for them calls them terrorists that's pretty damning.

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

They are terrorists though.

...I mean when the people working for them calls them terrorists that's pretty damning.

From Jacob, who's essentially an Alliance soldier but with a Cerberus logo.

They don't go around blowing things up and saying "HUMANS FIRST!", they may have a human-above-all agenda but it isn't being pushed by them. They remain in the shadows and work from there, not involving themselves too much into the affairs of other political groups and people while working on improving the human species as a whole.

If they were terrorists, they'd be attacking alien colonies and kicking the aliens when they are down. They don't do any of this though, they do their own little thing (creating super-soldiers or trying to protect human lives).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

They are terrorists though.

...I mean when the people working for them calls them terrorists that's pretty damning.

From Jacob, who's essentially an Alliance soldier but with a Cerberus logo.

They don't go around blowing things up and saying "HUMANS FIRST!", they may have a human-above-all agenda but it isn't being pushed by them. They remain in the shadows and work from there, not involving themselves too much into the affairs of other political groups and people while working on improving the human species as a whole.

If they were terrorists, they'd be attacking alien colonies and kicking the aliens when they are down. They don't do any of this though, they do their own little thing (creating super-soldiers or trying to protect human lives).

...Right because turning people into husks and setting thresher maws loose is oh so innocent and protecting human lives. 

Harboring children and torturing them to turn them into super biotics is also protecting human lives....

Really? I can understand saying they get (some) useful intel. But they're terrorists. 

And considering Jacob is working with them and has seen their projects firsthand I'm pretty damn sure if they were being altrustic he wouldn't have such a problem with them. 

Most of the people on your ship haven't been in Cerberus long or weren't involved with said projects (I wish we had gotten a Cerberus vet other than Miranda. And the fact that Miranda eventually turns against TIM is pretty damning of itself. She knows him pretty well...and if she's worried about what he'd do with the base...)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Right because turning people into husks and setting thresher maws loose is oh so innocent and protecting human lives. 

Harboring children and torturing them to turn them into super biotics is also protecting human lives....

Really? I can understand saying they get (some) useful intel. But they're terrorists.

That stuff doesn't make them terrorists, it isn't linked with terrorism at all. They aren't pushing a political agenda on anybody but doing those things. You could say they are unethical (and I'd agree with you to a certain extent) but they aren't terrorists in the sense of the word.

They are labeled terrorists by Jacob, who's essentially an Alliance soldier that would spit out anything he's told and believe it.

If they were actual terrorists, they would've let loose the thresher maws and husks on alien colonies as warnings or kidnap and torture alien children. However, they didn't and used it for studying in making humanity stronger.

Most of the people on your ship haven't been in Cerberus long or weren't involved with said projects

Probably to make you (the player) feel better having them around and explain why they stay with you in the epilogue when you flip off Cerberus. I too would've liked having another vet that experienced more projects.

And the fact that Miranda eventually turns against TIM is pretty damning of itself. She knows him pretty well...and if she's worried about what he'd do with the base

I blame the whole Paragon writing of the epilogue, Miranda's concerns being voiced I'm fine with but her essentially betraying Cerberus and going "TIM IS A MORON" alongside everybody in the crew? It just screams poor writing, especially when people like Legion and Mordin who support keeping the base turn around and scold you too.

No where did I feel that she doubted Cerberus or lost loyalty with them, she always pushed the Cerberus agenda on my Shepard and now suddenly she's betraying them?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

All those
Harboring children and torturing them to turn them into super biotics is also protecting human lives....

So all those dead children were "saved" by Cerberus? Jack was "saved" by Cerberus? I'm sure they're happy to know that.  All those dead researchers were "saved" by Cerberus? Bull****. That project saved no one. The only thing it did was kill a lot of people and produce a mentally unstable super biotic who hates Cerberus. 

That stuff doesn't make them terrorists, it isn't linked with terrorism at all. They aren't pushing a political agenda on anybody but doing those things. You could say they are unethical (and I'd agree with you to a certain extent) but they aren't terrorists in the sense of the word.

The advancement of humanity is suddenly not a political agenda? 

They are labeled terrorists by Jacob, who's essentially an Alliance soldier that would spit out anything he's told and believe it.

...And where does he show this? He's a bit of an ass to be sure but even TIM acknowledges Jacob's honesty and down to earth-ness. 

If they were actual terrorists, they would've let loose the thresher maws and husks on alien colonies as warnings or kidnap and torture alien children. However, they didn't and used it for studying in making humanity stronger.

So setting them loose on Alliance soldiers not count because they're humans?   Turning said humans they are supposedly trying to protect into shock troops doesn't count either? The very act of using shock troops indicates terrorism! 

Probably to make you (the player) feel better having them around and explain why they stay with you in the epilogue when you flip off Cerberus. I too would've liked having another vet that experienced more projects.

I have the feeling if we had more vets they'd have been "survival of the fittest" like people and straight up "the end justifys the means" types. With the work Cerberus does...

I blame the whole Paragon writing of the epilogue, Miranda's concerns being voiced I'm fine with but her essentially betraying Cerberus and going "TIM IS A MORON" alongside everybody in the crew? It just screams poor writing, especially when people like Legion and Mordin who support keeping the base turn around and scold you too.

No where did I feel that she doubted Cerberus or lost loyalty with them, she always pushed the Cerberus agenda on my Shepard and now suddenly she's betraying them?

 

I always thought they were fine with keeping the base. But practically no one on that ship trusted TIM with it. The fact that you gave the base to TIM is what had them concerned not keeping it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[fongiel24]

Moiaussi wrote...

The existance of the CIA does not reassure nor prevent paramilitary or survivlist movements from cropping up in the US. The S.A.S. did not convince either side of the Irish conflict to leave it all to them. Even Canada had the FLQ crisis. Greenpeace probably counts as an example too, in at least some of their operations.

There are always times in history when certain factions in the populace feel the government is not doing enough and that 'drastic measures' are needed. Sometimes radical measures are needed, but more often than not that is simply an assumption on the part of the rogue organization.

The IRA, the FLQ, and Greenpeace don't have the level of financial backing by wealthy donors that allows them to secretly build state-of-the-art stealth warships and hire scientists to research technology that allows them to resurrect people from the dead. Cerberus obviously does. Even the IRA, as organized and well-armed as they were at times, doesn't even come close to having Cerberus' resources and expertise. I'd venture that Cerberus could even rival many real world intelligence services in its capabilities. 

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

So all those dead children were "saved" by Cerberus? Jack was "saved" by Cerberus? I'm sure they're happy to know that.

I didn't say that, you just requoted your post but with my name on it.

The advancement of humanity is suddenly not a political agenda? 

It doesn't interfere with other people's agendas. Cerberus and their goals haven't threatened the Council or any of the alien species, they are just working on rising humans. If I'm working on getting a promotion above my boss but I don't sabotage anything my boss does, does that still make me a cheat?

...And where does he show this? He's a bit of an ass to be sure but even TIM acknowledges Jacob's honesty and down to earth-ness.

Pretty much everything he says or does is about the Alliance and how they handle things compared to Cerberus.

So setting them loose on Alliance soldiers not count because they're humans? 

Did it advance their political agenda? Were the aliens they hate weakened in any way? It's unethical but not terrorism. Look up the definition of terrorism.

I always thought they were fine with keeping the base. But practically no one on that ship trusted TIM with it. The fact that you gave the base to TIM is what had them concerned not keeping it. 

Well, I forget what Mordin and Garrus say but Legion and Grunt don't question TIM but question keeping the base itself. Legion scolds you for using technology that isn't your own and Grunt scolds you for being "weak", however on the base itself they both firmly support keeping the base because it's data and a weapon.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Well, I forget what Mordin and Garrus say but Legion and Grunt don't question TIM but question keeping the base itself. Legion scolds you for using technology that isn't your own and Grunt scolds you for being "weak", however on the base itself they both firmly support keeping the base because it's data and a weapon.

Alright. Cerberus aren't terrorists. 

I just hope I have the option to shoot TIM in the head in ME3. 

[lovgreno]

fongiel24 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

I think killing TIM is letting him off easy. Humiliating him in a public trial on the other hand would hurt his rather inflated ego much more. But more importantly that way you can get some usefull things he knows out of him.

A public trial would be the best way for TIM to go out. It would probably end up similar to Gold Roger's execution in One Piece.

If this is taking place after the reapers were defeated, all he would have to say is that it is because of him and Cerberus that Shepard was alive to save the galaxy.

Given that Cerberus has the backing of some very wealthy, very influential people in the galaxy and has done some seriously messed up stuff while still with the Alliance (like Akuze), he could also stand up in court and say, "I've got a list of everyone I've ever collaborated with, knew what I was doing, and either supported it or did nothing to stop it."

How much damage would that do to the Alliance politically? I don't think anybody in the Alliance would want TIM's trial to be open to the public. They might as well as hand him a noose to hang them with. I'd wager that this is precisely why the Alliance has been so unsuccessful in tracking Cerberus down - they're not actually trying for fear of what TIM could do to them.

You are right. Most of the Alliance would probably prefer to have TIMmy dissapear discretely. They may very well be planning to do that right now. It would be best for Shepard to not risk going down with him.

[Asheer_Khan]

Yes, yes.... ceberus is nothing more than intergalactic Salvation Army...

[Dean_the_Young]

TIM should either be a karmic houdini, or make his death a boon for humanity in a final last act of defiance.

[Xilizhra]

Why so?

[SetsunaF]

Arijharn wrote...


- That Overlord's continued operation with the autistic David did indeed spare 'a million mothers from mourning a million sons.' To be honest; I totally feel like a complete jackass bastard (to say the least) when I leave David in that... thing, but I view it as having a huge potential from not so much making Geth humanity's lapdog, but to stave off any Geth aggression if Geth aggression would be their first response. If I was Shep though I'd make it known to Dr. Archer that his first new direction would be change the method to which David connects, then my second rule would be enforced separation time from the machine to give him some semblance of normal life as well...

Interesting point of view, but I always released David. if you completed Legion's loyalty mission, you effectively removed the 'heretic' geth which were the ones attacking Citidel space. So for me having Legion and the main geth understand my cause and discovering they did not want war, Project Overlord thus became unnecessary.
If I want to communicate with the geth, I have Legion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why so?

TIM and Cerberus are supposed to remain morally ambiguous, capable of great evil and great good at the same time. If, however, ME3 included a 'the Council kills TIM like a mad dog', it comes away as a punishment, and the ambiguity is lost. A karmic houdini is beyond simple good and evil, much like Cerberus is.

And, of course, it would make me laugh at likely reactions.

If he dies, though, it almost certainly will be for him to let himself go in a manner most advantageous to humanity: not selling out the Aliance from beyond the grave or such.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Saremei]

SetsunaF wrote...

Interesting point of view, but I always released David. if you completed Legion's loyalty mission, you effectively removed the 'heretic' geth which were the ones attacking Citidel space. So for me having Legion and the main geth understand my cause and discovering they did not want war, Project Overlord thus became unnecessary.
If I want to communicate with the geth, I have Legion.

Who is a geth sent to learn about you.  Legion is good and all, but I dunno.  He's a machine of logic, but he isn't vulcan or anything. he is capable of deception.  That and the fact that even after Legion's loyalty mission, there are still hostile geth in the ME2 universe.

But that's probably just me. I prefer the Geth as the enemy.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's also no proof conflict won't come later. Learning about the Geth marks a markedly decreased risk of conflict, but the future is always uncertain: before Sovereign showed up, the Heretics weren't exactly going to attack Eden Prime either.