261 réponses à ce sujet

[Asepsis]

Hello! Sorry if this has been asked before but I searched the forums and all I managed to read was just about losing Alistair, which is not my question.



I was wondering is there a way to recruit Loghain WITHOUT having to force Alistair to marry Anora in order for him to be King. Iwant to recruit Loghain, but NOT allow Anora to be queen. I'd prefer Alistair on the throne (since I can't stand being stabbed in the back *coughanoracough*)



Just wondering, this is the first time since the game first came out I've actually allowed Loghain to live, and it irks me that Anora has to be Queen, and shoves Alistair out of the way to make her speeches (Graaa!), so...I am stuck here.



First time through I told Anora I'd support her so I could avoid the whole landsmeet fight, and it made me choose between making her Queen (sparingLoghain), making Alistair king (and killing loghain) or making Alistair marry her (sparing loghain).



I then went through again after telling her I would not support her back stabbing, traitorous, slytherin-esque, arrogant, self righteous self, which obviously made her lie about the Wardens in the landsmeet and I had to start a fight like a d-bag, thus shaming the Wardens.



Someone please tell me there is a way to do this without making Anora Queen! I hate her and her little rich girl, entitled, poopy attitude.

If not, I shall grin and bare. Although I won't be happy about it.

What's the point of hardening Alistair if Anora still steals the spotlight? Gosh darn Anora and her speechphilia.

Thanks in advance!

Modifié par Asepsis, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Aigyl]

'fraid it's not possible to spare Loghain and keep Anora off the throne, she's rather picky that way. If Loghain is in your group you have no choice but to listen to the beautiful sound of Anora screeching before the Final Battle.

The only way to have Alistair ruling solo or be the one giving the epic speeches is to execute Loghain. Alistair is happy with dead Loghains.

If you absolutely want to spare Loghain, the best outcome for a hardened Alistair is to marry him off to Anora. He'll hate you, but he'll still make a decent king. Anora will be a happy panda no matter what if Loghain survives the Landsmeet.

Hope that helps

Modifié par Aigyl, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[Asepsis]

Thanks! I knew I'd end up losing Alistair (which I was sad about), but I was hoping for a way to save myself and Alistair (since I like living) without the whole dark ritual.



Oh wells...*sigh*



Thanks again!



Also I don't get why my computer formats my posts like that, blegh.

[CalJones]

It's not your computer - this forum adds automatic line breaks unless you are quoting someone or editing a post.

As for Anora, how she behaves generally depends on how you deal with her. If you're interested, there's an Anora discussion thread here.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Anora and I got along pretty well in our pre-Landsmeet discussions and I was sympathetic to her concerns about sparing Loghain if possible. I was a little miffed, therefore, when immediately after I agreed to spare her father, even at the cost of losing Alistair, she demanded that Alistair be executed. Hi --hypocritical much? I did convince her to let him go, but she as much as called me a fool. But allowing her father to live, who still has at least as much support and influence with the people as Alistair, and who hates me and has wanted me dead for months, that's not foolish at all. . .?

I'm not regretting sparing Loghain at all; I'm having a blast in battles with him and he and my Mage are getting on like the proverbial house on fire, all things considered. But Anora's attitude definitely soured the moment for me at Landsmeet.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Monica21]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Anora and I got along pretty well in our pre-Landsmeet discussions and I was sympathetic to her concerns about sparing Loghain if possible. I was a little miffed, therefore, when immediately after I agreed to spare her father, even at the cost of losing Alistair, she demanded that Alistair be executed. Hi --hypocritical much? I did convince her to let him go, but she as much as called me a fool. But allowing her father to live, who still has at least as much support and influence with the people as Alistair, and who hates me and has wanted me dead for months, that's not foolish at all. . .?

There are political implications around leaving Alistair alive. He's the last Theirin and he can gain enough support to take the throne. And if you do leave him alive with Anora on the throne, you learn that a failed rebellion took his name, although there's no evidence Alistair was behind it. The nobles love their Theirin blood, and neither Anora nor Loghain has does not have the kind of support she would need to lead a rebellion for the throne. Loghain is popular yes, but as a general, not as a ruler.

It's simply politics. Even if he's not an enemy now, he could become one later.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Monica21 wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Anora and I got along pretty well in our pre-Landsmeet discussions and I was sympathetic to her concerns about sparing Loghain if possible. I was a little miffed, therefore, when immediately after I agreed to spare her father, even at the cost of losing Alistair, she demanded that Alistair be executed. Hi --hypocritical much? I did convince her to let him go, but she as much as called me a fool. But allowing her father to live, who still has at least as much support and influence with the people as Alistair, and who hates me and has wanted me dead for months, that's not foolish at all. . .?

There are political implications around leaving Alistair alive. He's the last Theirin and he can gain enough support to take the throne. And if you do leave him alive with Anora on the throne, you learn that a failed rebellion took his name, although there's no evidence Alistair was behind it. The nobles love their Theirin blood, and neither Anora nor Loghain has does not have the kind of support she would need to lead a rebellion for the throne. Loghain is popular yes, but as a general, not as a ruler.

It's simply politics. Even if he's not an enemy now, he could become one later.

I don't deny that Anora has a legitimate point. I'm just saying that I'm also taking a risk --at least a personal risk, if not a political one-- in sparing Loghain, with which she's totally fine, but then she derides me for choosing compassion over politics with Alistair. Of course, she has a personal interest in her father's welfare that she doesn't have in Alistair's, but as long as she's being logical she does have to recognize her hypocrisy there.

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Anora and I got along pretty well in our pre-Landsmeet discussions and I was sympathetic to her concerns about sparing Loghain if possible. I was a little miffed, therefore, when immediately after I agreed to spare her father, even at the cost of losing Alistair, she demanded that Alistair be executed. Hi --hypocritical much? I did convince her to let him go, but she as much as called me a fool. But allowing her father to live, who still has at least as much support and influence with the people as Alistair, and who hates me and has wanted me dead for months, that's not foolish at all. . .?

There are political implications around leaving Alistair alive. He's the last Theirin and he can gain enough support to take the throne. And if you do leave him alive with Anora on the throne, you learn that a failed rebellion took his name, although there's no evidence Alistair was behind it. The nobles love their Theirin blood, and neither Anora nor Loghain has does not have the kind of support she would need to lead a rebellion for the throne. Loghain is popular yes, but as a general, not as a ruler.

It's simply politics. Even if he's not an enemy now, he could become one later.

I don't deny that Anora has a legitimate point. I'm just saying that I'm also taking a risk --at least a personal risk, if not a political one-- in sparing Loghain, with which she's totally fine, but then she derides me for choosing compassion over politics with Alistair. Of course, she has a personal interest in her father's welfare that she doesn't have in Alistair's, but as long as she's being logical she does have to recognize her hypocrisy there.

I agree with both of you here. The first time I spared Loghain and she immediately ordered Alistair's execution....I went...."Wait, WHAT?".

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...

I agree with both of you here. The first time I spared Loghain and she immediately ordered Alistair's execution....I went...."Wait, WHAT?".

Eh, it's all water under the bridge at this point. All I know is that Loghain fights like a possessed hyena on speed, and that he and Dog are happy as pigs in poo to be tearing through the Deep Roads together, clearing out any hostile elements I left behind while doing the Orzammar treaty quest. I swear they have a race to see who can get to wherever the enemy's been spotted, kill as many as possible, and get back to me the fastest. Half the time my Mage is left hanging with her staff in the air like

"Never fear, faithful companions! I see the enemy horde but I will cast Sleep on them, and then Waking Nightmare, and then I will cast Tempest in their area so we can all stand comfortably at a distance and watch them die like bugs in a microwave, and then--

You're back already? But I haven't even cast Tempest yet!

What do you mean, you killed them all?

No, that's great, wow, no, I appreciate it. You, too, that was a great job. Good boy. Yes, you may have a piece of cheese.

. . .um. . .

Who wants to see me turn into a bear? :wizard:"

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 22 octobre 2010 - 06:36 .

[DWSmiley]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Good boy. Yes, you may have a piece of cheese.

. . .um. . .

Who wants to see me turn into a bear? :wizard:"

LOL.  Which one are you offering the cheese too?

It's never occured to me to leave parts of main quests undone til after the Landsmeet.  I shall have to do that sometime.  The Brecilian Forest is another area where one could leave a lot to do.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

DWSmiley wrote...

LOL.  Which one are you offering the cheese too?

It's never occured to me to leave parts of main quests undone til after the Landsmeet.  I shall have to do that sometime.  The Brecilian Forest is another area where one could leave a lot to do.

I was offering it to Dog, but since Loghain keeps cheese in his pocket specifically for that purpose I guess I'm not needed for that either.

I conceived of and played my Mage character with the specific intent of recruiting Loghain, so I deliberately left as much for us to do as possible. (It also fit in RP-wise with my character, who is pretty businesslike. If she's looking for Branka and Oghren says she's in Ortan Thaig, and they find the way to Ortan Thaig, there's no reason for her to explore any more of Caridin's Cross.) We've cleared out the Deep Roads and the remaining areas of the Carta hideout now (minus Cadash Thaig, which I'm actually doing without Freak & Freak Inc. because I have to bring Shale, and I'd like Sten to accompany her, and then I need a Rogue for locks), but I also have unexplored areas of the Brecilian Forest, the Brecilian Ruins, and the Ruined Temple to cover. I also still have to kill the High Dragon and Flemeth (and I'll also probably take care of Kolgrim too because he's too crazy to live), and I also haven't visited the warehouse in Denerim with all the maleficar, or paid a visit to Gaxkang the Unbound, or solved the mystery of the Alienage. And then, we get to go back to Ostagar. . .

Good, good times.

Leaving unfinished areas --especially of the Deep Roads-- can also help to break up any tedium that players may experience in the course of their umpteenth playthrough where they just want to move the story along as quickly as possible. By all means, move the story along; then if you're still interested in picking up the items, cash and XP you left behind, bring Loghain. It'll all go real, real fast. . .

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 22 octobre 2010 - 06:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
 Of course, she has a personal interest in her father's welfare that she doesn't have in Alistair's, but as long as she's being logical she does have to recognize her hypocrisy there.

Two different situations. If Loghain is executed, but Anora is placed on the throne, she does nothing to Alistair because he swears fealty and retracts his claim to the throne. If however Loghain is spared, Alistair does not swear fealty, in essence not rejecting his claim to the throne and he does not yield. Loghain on the otherhand yielded.
So there is no hypocracy there.

[Sarah1281]

(since I can't stand being stabbed in the back *coughanoracough*)

In this case, I recommend, NOT telling Cauthrien who she is two seconds after she tells you not to tell ANYONE who she is, going to see her like she asks and promising to let her stay Queen (you can even set up the marriage then), and then also not outright telling her you want to kill Loghain. Which you apparently don't.

'fraid it's not possible to spare Loghain and keep Anora off the throne, she's rather picky that way.

Oh rather, Alistair is. If he is King and Anora is not there to fight him then he'll insist on Loghain dying.

I don't deny that Anora has a legitimate point. I'm just saying that I'm also taking a risk --at least a personal risk, if not a political one-- in sparing Loghain, with which she's totally fine, but then she derides me for choosing compassion over politics with Alistair. Of course, she has a personal interest in her father's welfare that she doesn't have in Alistair's, but as long as she's being logical she does have to recognize her hypocrisy there.

I don't see why that would be hypocrisy. If she has to, she will allow her father to be executed. Putting him in the Wardens is a way to neutralize his threat and allow him to live. Alistair is already a Warden but is still being pushed as a candidate for king so it's not like they can just shove him in the Wardens like Loghain was to make him no longer a threat (and does she know the story with Sophia?) Loghain also doesn't have a claim to the throne except through her so he can hardly have a rebellion aimed at deposing her so that he can take the throne...through his connections with her. Alistair on the other hand can have such a rebellion even if he isn't personally involved. People say that her trying to kill Alistair only if Loghain lives is a game mechanic because you can't have them both in your party but I think it's more of a game mechanic that she says 'Yeah, my dad died and Alistair won't stop beaming about that but I'm going to let him live anyway because, um, vengeance is bad?' when Loghain dies because you need another Warden in your party.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

If Alistair was being pushed as a candidate for king I would concede that it's a similar situation to the Bhelen/Harrowmont debate, in which the loser pretty much has to die for rebellion or civil war not to break out almost immediately. But what if Alistair is not being pushed for king? Eamon proposed it, but I supported Anora alone and Alistair certainly wasn't pushing himself forward. And the Landsmeet sided with the Grey Wardens, not Eamon.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

If Alistair was being pushed as a candidate for king I would concede that it's a similar situation to the Bhelen/Harrowmont debate, in which the loser pretty much has to die for rebellion or civil war not to break out almost immediately. But what if Alistair is not being pushed for king? Eamon proposed it, but I supported Anora alone and Alistair certainly wasn't pushing himself forward. And the Landsmeet sided with the Grey Wardens, not Eamon.

If you want to spare Loghain, Alistair is certainly pushing himself for the throne, does not swear fealty and thus does not retract his claim to the throne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 octobre 2010 - 05:28 .

[ejoslin]

Alistair was being pushed for king. The nobles are talking about that at the gnarled tavern beforehand.

[Sarah1281]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

If Alistair was being pushed as a candidate for king I would concede that it's a similar situation to the Bhelen/Harrowmont debate, in which the loser pretty much has to die for rebellion or civil war not to break out almost immediately. But what if Alistair is not being pushed for king? Eamon proposed it, but I supported Anora alone and Alistair certainly wasn't pushing himself forward. And the Landsmeet sided with the Grey Wardens, not Eamon.

Eamon was pushing him as king and Alistair even pushed himself as king over Loghain. He was just standing there not doing much until you decide to spare Loghain and then he tries to seize the throne so he can kill Anora's father.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

If Alistair was being pushed as a candidate for king I would concede that it's a similar situation to the Bhelen/Harrowmont debate, in which the loser pretty much has to die for rebellion or civil war not to break out almost immediately. But what if Alistair is not being pushed for king? Eamon proposed it, but I supported Anora alone and Alistair certainly wasn't pushing himself forward. And the Landsmeet sided with the Grey Wardens, not Eamon.

If you want to spare Loghain, Alistair is certainly pushing himself for the throne, does not swear fealty and thus does not retract his claim to the throne.

Oh, that's true. He does change his tune about being king as soon as you accept the proposal to conscript Loghain. I had forgotten about that because in my mind it wasn't an actual bid to be king but to put himself in a position where he could force Loghain to be executed. Of course, that still amounts to a bid to be king, and of course, Alistair would wake up the morning after executing Loghain and --surprise!-- he'd be king, but either that doesn't sound like such a bad idea to him anymore or he's temporarily forgotten that tiny consideration.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That was a facepalm moment for all kinds of reasons, yes.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

So then, if you don't get along with Anora before the Landsmeet, or don't agree to support her, or whatever, does she ever just order Alistair's execution anyway? She doesn't have to grant you that "boon" to spare him, and the only way you could stop her would be to start another brawl in the Landsmeet chamber, which would be both politically disastrous and not a good way to kick things off with your newest Grey Warden recruit. Does she still think she needs to stay on your good side? Yes, you're now responsible for her father's life, but she's okay with giving that up if she has to. . .

Ugh, too many layers of an onion I never wanted to eat in the first place. . .This is why the political parts of this game always give me a headache, and why I'm so happy to be done with it.

I am somewhat interested in the conversation I'll have with Eamon back in Redcliffe, though. He wasn't happy in my other playthroughs when I executed Loghain but supported Anora for the throne. This time for some reason, he bolted from Denerim as soon as the Landsmeet was over so I didn't get to hear his thoughts. . .and with guests still in his house, too. . .

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 22 octobre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you want to spare Loghain, Alistair is certainly pushing himself for the throne, does not swear fealty and thus does not retract his claim to the throne.

Anora doesn't give him the chance to swear fealty.  She immediately calls for his execution.  When, the Warden having asked that Alisteir be spared, she asks him to renounce his claim to the throne he immediately does so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Anora doesn't give him the chance to swear fealty.  She immediately calls for his execution.

After he said that he was leaving without renouncing his claim. So yes, of course.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Anora doesn't give him the chance to swear fealty.  She immediately calls for his execution.

After he said that he was leaving without renouncing his claim. So yes, of course.

Execute first, ask later isn't a great policy.

Plus, she has no right to go around executing my wardens out of hand.

[Sarah1281]

Sure she does. She's the queen now and he's not there in his Warden capacity but rather in his 'I'm not renouncing my claim to the throne' capacity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Execute first, ask later isn't a great policy.

Plus, she has no right to go around executing my wardens out of hand.

She has the right to execute someone who pushed himself for the throne and who did not renounce his claim when he said he was leaving. It's perfectly within her power to do so.