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[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Are you saying that Eamon has left Denerim and gone back to Redcliffe? Because that means that, in less than two years' time even a sole, unhardened, King Alistair has stopped listening to Eamon's advice and essentially gone off the reservation. Nothing in the epilogue slides leaves us to believe that this would be the case.

No, he doesn't have to. He has a senechal there presumabely and he is still Arl of Redcliff even as Chancellor. He doesn't have to be there to excercize his power as such. He could even have Teagan as Arl of Redcliff and the two can coordinate their efforts.

I don't think it's Alistair, Eamon is worried about, but the other nobles, specifically the two Teyrns. So of course he would want a power base loyal to him. He could even make Redcliff a Ternir.

But this still means that even a hardened Alistair is sitting on the throne and allowing his Chancellor to give him headaches. I just don't see that, and I don't think I'm giving Alistair too much credit by thinking that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
But this still means that even a hardened Alistair is sitting on the throne and allowing his Chancellor to give him headaches. I just don't see that, and I don't think I'm giving Alistair too much credit by thinking that.

Maybe he trusts Eamon. Or maybe he is that stupid.
It's really a slow process and it isn't obvious. It's a trend. It's not like the Bannorn jumped and declared their allegience to Redcliff.

Eamon is not necessarily giving him headaches with this. He might say it's just a collaborative effort to reconstruct what was lost during the blight. Or because there are problems in the Bannorn as per Awakening, Eamon could say that Redcliff can act as mediator.

Eamon is smart, if he is indeed consolidating his power, he won't make it obvious.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

But this still means that even a hardened Alistair is sitting on the throne and allowing his Chancellor to give him headaches. I just don't see that, and I don't think I'm giving Alistair too much credit by thinking that.

In addition to him being more subtle about it than that, all we know of how Alistair handles a chancellor is through what the epilogue says about Chancellor Warden.

<FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was a regular face at court--at least for a time. Alistair deferred to his advisor's judgment on most matters, and when the king traveled away from the capital, as he did often, he was more than willing to leave the throne entirely in <FirstName/>'s hands.

If he acts even remotely like this with Eamon then he's leaving him in charge whenever he leaves and deferring to him a great deal. The 'at least for a time' part could mean that this tendency lessens as more time goes by.

[Monica21]

Honestly, I just don't see it. I don't see Alistair falling for a "collaborative effort" line when he left Vigil's Keep because there were problems with the Bannorn. If he knows there are problems, then he will know that it's because Redcliffe should be standing behind the throne and they aren't. His chancellor can solve that problem rather easily.

Sarah, is that slide for a hardened or unhardened Alistair, or both? And I can see how that might happen "for a time" but it seems to me that if something is really going on in Redcliffe and Eamon is consolidating power from there, Alistair could come back and ask "WTF?" Except in a more noble fashion, of course.

The only way this map note can make sense to me is if Eamon is not Chancellor.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

Honestly, I just don't see it. I don't see Alistair falling for a "collaborative effort" line when he left Vigil's Keep because there were problems with the Bannorn. If he knows there are problems, then he will know that it's because Redcliffe should be standing behind the throne and they aren't. His chancellor can solve that problem rather easily.

But Redcliff is not standing against the throne currently. What is said in WH is that IF this trend continues, Redcliff will be a new center of power and that might split Ferelden in two. But it didn't happen yet, it will take some time for this to happen.

If Eamon is Chancellor, what he is doing can very well support the throne and thus his chancellorship. So I don't see Alistair minding.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Sarah1281]

That's hardened. Unhardened is even worse.

<FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was the face most often seen at court. In truth, the chancellor ruled the nation, and did so with King Alistair's blessing. Whenever the chancellor left Denerim on personal affairs, the business of the court effectively came to a standstill.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Honestly, I just don't see it. I don't see Alistair falling for a "collaborative effort" line when he left Vigil's Keep because there were problems with the Bannorn. If he knows there are problems, then he will know that it's because Redcliffe should be standing behind the throne and they aren't. His chancellor can solve that problem rather easily.

But Redcliff is not standing against the throne currently. What is said in WH is that IF this trend continues, Redcliff will be a new center of power and that might split Ferelden in two. But it didn't happen yet, it will take some time for this to happen.

If Eamon is Chancellor, what he is doing can very well support the throne and thus his chancellorship. So I don't see Alistair minding.

Redcliffe is not standing against the throne, but they're doing enough that the Bannorn is no longer looking to Denerim. Eamon can stop the trend, and in fact, should have stopped it before it started.

How can whatever Eamon is doing support the throne if it causes the Bannorn to look for political support in Redcliffe?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Redcliffe is not standing against the throne, but they're doing enough that the Bannorn is no longer looking to Denerim. Eamon can stop the trend, and in fact, should have stopped it before it started.

How can whatever Eamon is doing support the throne if it causes the Bannorn to look for political support in Redcliffe?

Yes, but is Alistair smart enough to realise this before a few years?

With Eamon as chancellor, support to Recliff means support to him, which he gives to the king since he is his chancellor (because without the king, he can't be chancellor). So in the short term, this is benefitting the throne if Alistair is on it. So it goes like this: bannorn --> Recliff / Eamon --> Alistair, since Eamon needs him.

In the long term it could potentially create a disaster, but i don't see Alistair being bright enough to notice before a few years.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:48 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, but is Alistair smart enough to realise this before a few years?

With Eamon as chancellor, support to Recliff means support to him, which he gives to the king since he is his chancellor (because without the king, he can't be chancellor). So in the short term, this is benefitting the throne if Alistair is on it. So it goes like this: bannorn --> Recliff / Eamon --> Alistair, since Eamon needs him.

In the long term it could potentially create a disaster, but i don't see Alistair being bright enough to notice before a few years.  

Well, okay. I don't think it's about whether Alistair is smart enough, but instead about how politically naive he is. And he is.  And he trusts Eamon far too much. So, maybe.

I still don't like it though and I still think it's kind of an in-your-face notice about succession problems which most of us had already figured out anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh well, I don't think it's necessarily goign to turn into a disaster. It could, but it's not inevitable. But the whole Ferelden situation is somewhat depressing despite the potential.

[Monica21]

It is depressing. I feel strangely patriotic towards Ferelden and am disappointed that DA2 isn't set there. I fear finding out the fate of Ferelden through codex entries.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's why me leaving with Morrigan was a much harder choice than it should have been. i like Ferelden a lot.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 06:09 .

[ejoslin]

TJPags wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the templar in Lothering (I can't think of his name) certainly thinks Anora is not fit to be queen as Loghain is a commoner.

And one reason why there is so much Eamon hate: If you believe what Alistair says, Eamon had him sleeping with the hounds, ignoring him for the most part, then shipping him away when his wife asked him to. There are Alistair fangirls who feel this is as bad as Zevran's upbringing (yes, I'm serious) and so of course they'll hate Eamon.

I don't like the way Eamon, Anora, and Loghain all treat my warden as a tool. But that is politics. I think Anora is the most honest about it, though.

Wasn't the whole sleeping with the hounds thing largely exageration and a joke on Ali's part?  I'm pretty sure that, when pressed, he admits he only slept with the dogs sometimes, and on his own choice, not that he was forced to do so.

Shipping him off the the Chantry when his new wife complains about the unknown bastard living in the castle - is that so bad, really?  The chantry is hardly an orphanage, and did Isolde know who Alistair's father is?  She might well have assumed that Eamon was the father, and wanted him out of the way of her own son.  Maybe a little cold, but perfectly understandable, and hardly a terrible thing, IMO.

I'm certainly not going to argue with what OTHER people believe but I do not.  Just explaining some of the Eamon hate.  I thought I made it clear that I didn't like that he (along with Anora and Loghain) treated my warden as a tool in their own power game.  And that I think Anora was the most honest about it, which I respect.

Edit: As far as how Eamon treated Alistair?  The hounds comment is not something you can press him about, really.  He doesn't admit to what you think he does.  Whether he's exaggerating or not, I don't know.  I really don't care.  My opinion about Eamon has nothing to do with that.  I was just trying to explain WHY a lot of people hate him.

(I'm not being mistaken for an Alistair fangirl, am I?)

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh. I always so Eamon as more emotionally neglectful than anything. Which in some cases can be just as damaging as physical abuse. But that's just personal experience talking.

Regardless I don't think anyone other than the PC (and that's only with HN origin) has the possibility of having a completely peaceful normal childhood. (Well...and Sten.)

Though...I hope they don't have some drama start up in Fereldan with our PC (possibly) still being there and I can't have my PC deal with it. D: 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 06:38 .

[ejoslin]

I'm sorry, while emotional neglect IS a bad thing, it's not quite the same as beatings, then physical torture at older ages, is on TOP of emotional neglect.

Gah, ok, the conversation IS going there :/  What can I say?  Orphans don't have an easy lot in life for sure in Ferelden.  Whether they spend their formative years in relative comfort or in horrendous abusive circumstances does make a difference.  As does the relative strength of character of the orphan I suppose.

Edit: But still, how Eamon treated Alistair is irrelevant to me.  He took in the king's bastard, made sure he was fed, clothed, schooled, took him on trips, bought him gifts.  He may have not been that close to Alistair, but honestly, given that so many people seemed to know and care for Alistair, it's hard to believe that Ali was really THAT neglected.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
(I'm not being mistaken for an Alistair fangirl, am I?)

Heh, I certainly would never mistake you for that.

I share your view of Eamon and I'm not an Alistair fangirl either. (I'm actually a Gilmore fangirl now that I have Immortality's mod.) He's opportunistic, and I dislike that quality, but I can respect that he's a good politician, even if I cut his legs out from under him at the Landsmeet.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Asepsis wrote...

I WANNA SEE YOU TURN INTO A BEAR! Lol, just wanted to say this cheered me up! Lol! I'm loving playing as a mage, so fun!

Glad it made you laugh, I laugh every time it happens to me.

I only wonder if Riordan had told him the reason for why he wanted Loghain spared if he'd have seen reason. I hope he would but after the talk in Denerim before he leaves makes me think maybe not. He was angry.

That would have been an interesting scenario, which would have opened up a lot of new RP options. (1) Alistair says "Ah, I see now, yes, let's recruit him and then make him sacrifice himself"; (2) the PC convinces Alistair to let Loghain live by pointing out that he could be the sacrifice; (3) Alistair still refuses because he doesn't want Loghain to get any of the "glory"; (4) Alistair refuses anyway because he just hates Loghain that much and refuses to work with him in any capacity. Additional RP nuances could also manifest in whether or not Riordan, Alistair and the PC choose to let Loghain in on their little secret, or just let him sacrifice himself unknowingly. Perhaps the PC could originally choose to keep silent but then change his or her mind later and perhaps have a falling out with Alistair over it. So many possibilities. . .

. . .and perhaps that's why Riordan keeps his mouth shut until after Landsmeet. Maybe the game developers just didn't have time to deal with all those options.

Also, I'm having fun with Loghain as well, very interesting. Epic good fighter! I've been itching to get even more insight into his character and this play through is proving very interesting!!! I didn't realize you could do the landsmeet so early on in the game. I'm tempted to restart a playthrough that way since I'm almost done with this playthrough and I feel like I'm being rushed into getting to know him. It makes listening to Anora's speeches almost worth it, we'll see.

As far as I know, your only restrictions for how soon you can do Landsmeet is how quickly you can get those treaties honored (or in some cases, switched --for instance, my Mage has an army of Werewolves instead of Dalish). For the sidequests, just make sure that if any part of the sidequest has to be completed in Redcliffe, that you get that part of it done before Landsmeet or else you won't be able to finish it.

Looking forward to having him redeem himself by killing the arch demon too, I think that's a fitting end for a hero like Loghain. Epic bonus being no need for the old God baby! Yay for no dark rituals!!!

I don't know, I might try to convince Loghain to do that DR. The way things are going, I don't want him to die; nor does he act or talk like a man who wants to die, either. I've heard some people say that his only goal in life after Landsmeet is to give up that life to save Ferelden. I'm not getting that from him in my playthrough. Save Ferelden, sure, and die in the process if necessary; but he's very much *not* the Dead Man Walking that I had expected. More like Extremely Vital and Energetic Warrior Sprinting.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:27 .

[Monica21]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Save Ferelden, sure, and die in the process if necessary; but he's very much *not* the Dead Man Walking that I had expected. More like Extremely Vital and Energetic Warrior Sprinting.

LOL!

Not bad for a 50+ year old, eh? Ah, I do <3 Loghain.

[ejoslin]

 I love this talk with Loghain, when one of you are going to die, and he tries to convince you YOU still have a life worth living.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm sorry, while emotional neglect IS a bad thing, it's not quite the same as beatings, then physical torture at older ages, is on TOP of emotional neglect.

Gah, ok, the conversation IS going there :/  What can I say?  Orphans don't have an easy lot in life for sure in Ferelden.  Whether they spend their formative years in relative comfort or in horrendous abusive circumstances does make a difference.  As does the relative strength of character of the orphan I suppose.

Edit: But still, how Eamon treated Alistair is irrelevant to me.  He took in the king's bastard, made sure he was fed, clothed, schooled, took him on trips, bought him gifts.  He may have not been that close to Alistair, but honestly, given that so many people seemed to know and care for Alistair, it's hard to believe that Ali was really THAT neglected.

 

True. Some have it worth and it's not quite the same. But getting shot in the leg is not the same as someone sawing it off. One maybe preferable but they both pretty much suck. 

My point was no one in the game with the exceptions of perhaps the HN PC and Sten had peaceful ordinary (for their societies) lives. True there is plenty to be said about strength of characters, all the characters were shaped by their childhood experiences and all of them turned to be functioning (mostly) individuals. I'm not trying to have a X character had a worst life than Y, contest.

Perhaps. I'm just not okay with the whole "Oh here give him to the chantry because my new wife thinks he's my bastard" (I'm not overly fond of Isolde (is it an I or E?) either) when the chantry drugged up their templars. Eamon surely knew that. Alistair was lucky he got taken in by Duncan, who knows what would've happened after he started taking lyrium? 

That said. I doubt Eamon completely neglected Alistair either. He probably tried but didn't know what to do. The guy tried to give Alistair his mother's pendant but was constantly stonewalled. 

Edited to be less inflammatory 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:03 .

[ejoslin]

Oh, I apologize if I read too much into what you were saying. It's just hard for me to believe that someone leading a reasonably comfortable childhood with people who cared about him can be compared to one of hideous torture.

But I've had that argument here in the forums before!

Edit: Very few people have had a perfect childhood.  The HN has had a supportive family life.  The DN probably also had as good and as comfortable a life as is possible in the cutthroat ways of dwarven society as well.  Her dad loved her, even if her brothers were very obnoxious.  The dalish, though an orphan, obviously had a guardian who cared for her greatly, and was very much supported by her clan.

The CE and DC, though, had horrible lives.  And still, most likely better than my favorite assassin's (whom I have been told by many that Alistair had just as bad a childhood).

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I apologize if I read too much into what you were saying. It's just hard for me to believe that someone leading a reasonably comfortable childhood with people who cared about him can be compared to one of hideous torture.

But I've had that argument here in the forums before!

...When did I compare the two? That was you. I never compared Alistair and Zevran. Not once. 

I said in certain circumstances emotional neglect could be just as damaging to a person as physical abuse. I said nothing about torture. 

I accept your apology. I've jumped the gun myself on several occassions. 

Edit: I hope the above doesn't sound too antagonistic I'm just wondering what I did to suggest that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I apologize if I read too much into what you were saying. It's just hard for me to believe that someone leading a reasonably comfortable childhood with people who cared about him can be compared to one of hideous torture.

But I've had that argument here in the forums before!

...When did I compare the two? That was you. I never compared Alistair and Zevran. Not once. 

I said in certain circumstances emotional neglect could be just as damaging to a person as physical abuse. I said nothing about torture. 

I accept your apology. I've jumped the gun myself on several occassions. 

Which is why I apologized  It's not a new argument here but it was one that wasn't happening either.

ANYWAY!  Back to business.

Eamon is obnoxious.  And a manipulator.  AND I think I should have been able to smother him instead of search for the ashes and Bann Teagan should have mobilized the troops.

Edit: *grin* I really don't feel THAT strongly about it.  But I do hate that I have to go on a search for ashes when a blight is going on and that Teagan refuses to call the landsmeet.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 octobre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...


Which is why I apologized  It's not a new argument here but it was one that wasn't happening either.

ANYWAY!  Back to business.

Eamon is obnoxious.  And a manipulator.  AND I think I should have been able to smother him instead of search for the ashes and Bann Teagan should have mobilized the troops.

Edit: *grin* I really don't feel THAT strongly about it.  But I do hate that I have to go on a search for ashes when a blight is going on and that Teagan refuses to call the landsmeet.

He is. I just wished there had been another arl we could've gone too or that he could've died in certain instance. But alas, Plot immortality. Can't even kill him in the final battle even when I did it on purpose. He was still in the next scene. Gah. 

The search for the ashes was a bit of a wallbanger everything else in the game made logical sense except for that. Why exactly am I going on a wild goosechase for something that might not even exist? Now if it was optional it wouldn't be so glaring annoying. But since its not...

[TJPags]

ejoslin wrote...

TJPags wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the templar in Lothering (I can't think of his name) certainly thinks Anora is not fit to be queen as Loghain is a commoner.

And one reason why there is so much Eamon hate: If you believe what Alistair says, Eamon had him sleeping with the hounds, ignoring him for the most part, then shipping him away when his wife asked him to. There are Alistair fangirls who feel this is as bad as Zevran's upbringing (yes, I'm serious) and so of course they'll hate Eamon.

I don't like the way Eamon, Anora, and Loghain all treat my warden as a tool. But that is politics. I think Anora is the most honest about it, though.

Wasn't the whole sleeping with the hounds thing largely exageration and a joke on Ali's part?  I'm pretty sure that, when pressed, he admits he only slept with the dogs sometimes, and on his own choice, not that he was forced to do so.

Shipping him off the the Chantry when his new wife complains about the unknown bastard living in the castle - is that so bad, really?  The chantry is hardly an orphanage, and did Isolde know who Alistair's father is?  She might well have assumed that Eamon was the father, and wanted him out of the way of her own son.  Maybe a little cold, but perfectly understandable, and hardly a terrible thing, IMO.

I'm certainly not going to argue with what OTHER people believe but I do not.  Just explaining some of the Eamon hate.  I thought I made it clear that I didn't like that he (along with Anora and Loghain) treated my warden as a tool in their own power game.  And that I think Anora was the most honest about it, which I respect.

Edit: As far as how Eamon treated Alistair?  The hounds comment is not something you can press him about, really.  He doesn't admit to what you think he does.  Whether he's exaggerating or not, I don't know.  I really don't care.  My opinion about Eamon has nothing to do with that.  I was just trying to explain WHY a lot of people hate him.

(I'm not being mistaken for an Alistair fangirl, am I?)

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that you were arguing that viewpoint.  I quoted you only because you mentioned it.

I have learned since that previous post that I was confusing a dialogue option with Alistair - where he says he was raised by flying dogs - and his statement about sleeping in the stable, which are NOT part of the same conversation, and the second is simply a comment he makes, NOT part of a discussion.  So, yes, I combined those in my mind, mistakenly.

I still don't think he was treated that poorly.  He had a roof, food, some level of education, etc.  Certainly, he (I don't want to make this a "who had it worse?" issue) could have had it worse - Eamon never had to take him in at all, for example, he could have lived in an orphanage, grown up on the streets, etc.

As I've indicated, I seem to agree with you that Ali didn't have it so bad, and his childhood etc is NOT a reason to dislike Eamon, IMO - and in yours, it seems.

And no, I'm not confusing you with an Alistair fangirl.    I know how THOSE are.