261 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
He's an illegitmate bastard with no proof. Any rebellion raised in his name will be a rebellion that would've happened regardless but needed an excuse. Without Alistair they'll just find something else.

They need a claim to the throne, without Alistair, they will have a much ahrder time.
Notr saying his execution is going to remove all possible rebellions and discontent. It will hwoever make any rebellion in his name impossible. 

Ryzaki wrote...
Also could there not be rebellions over Anora killing the last heir to the Therrin throne? Yes I know the people in the landsmeet was fine with it but maybe some die hard royalists will use him as some sort of martyr. 

What's the point? If they have no Therein to take the throne, why rebel?
They could use him as a martyr if they had another Therein to put on the throne, they don't.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
After he said that he was leaving without renouncing his claim. So yes, of course.

  Alistair always renounces his claim.  Just because he doesn't say it explicitly, that's like cutting someone's head off because they forgot to sign on the dotted line.

If it isn't done explictily, then it has no legal or effective bearing. He has to say it explicitly. If he leaves without saying it, that's like him not renouncing his claim.

Executing him without giving him a chance to do so is like... executing him without giving him a chance to do so.

It's obvious that at that point Anora considers him a threat and doesn't care about whether he renounces his claim, explicitly or otherwise.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Murder, oh I so love to argue in semantics.



The Landsmeet gives the Warden the decision to place the crown on Anora's head. She is the leader by then and it is perfectly within her rights to kill Alistair.



Kill Eamon as well while you are at it I would say.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I haven't seen anyone declare Anora regent or put a crown on her head. So obviously it's not legitimate and therefore murder.

What? By that point we made her Queen in the Landsmeet. She wasn't officially crowned, but she is Queen. Just like if you say Alistair is king, he acts like one before coronation.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Executing him without giving him a chance to do so is like... executing him without giving him a chance to do so.

Leaving without doing so is forfeiting your chance to do so.

[Sarah1281]

I know. Which is why I wonder why Anora is so bothered that I chose (the one time I got this ending) to allow Alistair to be exiled. She acts like he'll come back a greater threat...when...that's not liable to happen.

So you're saying she overestimated him?

Since she failed to get any legal cover, and didn't even have the decency to do her murdering quietly and with plausible deniability.



Executing your rival after a failed rebellion is one thing, but all Alistair did was put his claim forward to a landsmeet called for that purpose, in accordance with Ferelden tradition.

She doesn't need plausible deniability. If her killing him was in any way illegal then she wouldn't have done it so publicly. She's been raised to be queen since Cailan was born. She knows the law.

Also could there not be rebellions over Anora killing the last heir to the Therrin throne? Yes I know the people in the landsmeet was fine with it but maybe some die hard royalists will use him as some sort of martyr.

Not everyone is as obsessed with blood as Eamon seems to be. No one in the Landsmeet objects at all to wiping out the Theirins. And what's more, a rebellion to displace the monarch to put someone you feel should be king (a Theirin) on the throne is one thing. A rebellion to displace the monarch because it's impossible to put someone you feel should be king on the throne? Why in the world would they do that?

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They could use him as a martyr if they had another Therein to put on the throne, they don't.

They don't need another Theirin.  They just need someone who isn't a murderer.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
They don't need another Theirin.  They just need someone who isn't a murderer.

Oh please. It's not a murder. It's a legal execution in front of the Landsmeet that gave its implicit consent.
No one thought it was a murder, not even Eamon.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


They need a claim to the throne, without Alistair, they will have a much ahrder time.
Notr saying his execution is going to remove all possible rebellions and discontent. It will hwoever make any rebellion in his name impossible.

Considering Anora was only married to the king and not actually royalty, all they would need to do is find someone with a close relation to the Therrin throne. (Did Maric have any siblings or cousins?) 

What's the point? If they have no Therein to take the throne, why rebel? 
They could use him as a martyr if they had another Therein to put on the throne, they don't.

Not now. But Maric's/Fiona's kid may still be running around. There's always the possibility he could be used. Or heck some other relative. 

[Costin_Razvan]

And Alistair is not a murderer now is he?

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I only place Anora on the throne alone if I'm leaving Fereldan. If my PC plans on staying there its always Anora + Hardened Alistair. They do work the best together after all. It's the only royal ending I seen the Golden Age result from.  

Oh no, someone else has seen the epilogue card that doesn't exist. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Considering Anora was only married to the king and not actually royalty, all they would need to do is find someone with a close relation to the Therrin throne. (Did Maric have any siblings or cousins?)

Loghain makes this clear.

"All the Theirins got executed by Meghren."

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Sarah1281]

Considering Anora was only married to the king and not actually royalty, all they would need to do is find someone with a close relation to the Therrin throne. (Did Maric have any siblings or cousins?)

Maric is an only child and the Orlesians did their best to wipe out all the other relatives he had.

Not now. But Maric's/Fiona's kid may still be running around. There's always the possibility he could be used. Or heck some other relative.

Maric has no other relatives. And if Alistair isn't Fiona's and one day her child is tracked down and is revealed to be the son of an Orlesian Grey Warden mage then there's no way in hell he's getting the throne.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I haven't seen anyone declare Anora regent or put a crown on her head. So obviously it's not legitimate and therefore murder.

What? By that point we made her Queen in the Landsmeet. She wasn't officially crowned, but she is Queen. Just like if you say Alistair is king, he acts like one before coronation.

Just because the Landsmeet agreed to follow the Warden's choice this doesn't make Anora insta-Queen the moment you choose her. It's simply telling the Landsmeet the course of action.

[CalJones]

I'd sooner execute Eamon than Alistair. Alistair never asked to be Maric's son and didn't want to be king at all - it was Eamon who put him up to it and wouldn't take no for an answer.

But yes, Alistair does demand to be king if you don't let him get his way with regard to Loghain, so I certainly don't blame Anora for wanting him out of the picture. I generally exile him, though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Considering Anora was only married to the king and not actually royalty, all they would need to do is find someone with a close relation to the Therrin throne. (Did Maric have any siblings or cousins?)

No, he didn't. If Alistair is dead, all Thereins are gone.

Eamon and Teagan could claim the throne on the basis of being related to Rowan. But they don't.

Not now. But Maric's/Fiona's kid may still be running around. There's always the possibility he could be used. Or heck some other relative. 

Anora doesn't know about him, so she can't plan for that.
And most people think that Fiona's kid is in fact Alistair.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Allowing Anora such arbitrary tyranny puts anyone who might find themselves on her bad side at risk.  To permit her the unprovoked murder of the last of the Theirin bloodline is to give her the same absolute power enjoyed by the Empress of Orlais.

If anyone had a problem with it, the Landsmeet would have spoken against it. They didn't, thus they gave their implicit consent. So it's not arbitrary tyranny.

It's a legal and legitimate execution that was unopposed in front of the Landsmeet. Not a murder.

No one is going to stop her, but it certainly is the mark of a tyrant.  Alistair had done nothing but assert a legitimate claim to the throne, in a legal forum, and when his bid is defeated and he is given an opportunity, he renounces that claim.  He had done nothing wrong at that point.  It's one thing to execute someone for trying to raise a rebellion, but executing him because someone might somewhere sometime?  Furthermore, Anora knows he doesn't want the throne for himself and has no such ambitions.  It's one of her stock arguments against him.  It may not be murder in a legal sense, but in a moral sense it comes pretty close.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:43 .

[ejoslin]

That card does NOT exist. OMG, with ALL the bugs they leave in the epilogue, I'm just so sure that they physically take out a card, though there are TONS of other things in the game that are not taken out but are specifically designed not to trigger (with notes saying it shouldn't trigger). Including in the epilogue file.



Anyway, Anora is not a murderer. She was within her rights, as Alistair was a threat to her rule and a threat to the stability of the country. She's also not a tyrant, is she is not calling for the deaths of all that opposed her, just the one who really IS a threat.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Just because the Landsmeet agreed to follow the Warden's choice this doesn't make Anora insta-Queen the moment you choose her. It's simply telling the Landsmeet the course of action.

Yes, yes it does. That was the point of the duel. The Landmseet will abide by the winnder's decision.

If that is indeed so, then why does Alsitair make you leader of the war effort if you say he is king?
If you believe that you picking him isn't enough, then who the hell is he to make you general of Ferelden's army? Who is he to emprison Anora?

He could do all this because he was king at that point. Likewise, Anora was also Queen.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...


So you're saying she overestimated him?

Yeah pretty much.   

Not everyone is as obsessed with blood as Eamon seems to be. No one in the Landsmeet objects at all to wiping out the Theirins. And what's more, a rebellion to displace the monarch to put someone you feel should be king (a Theirin) on the throne is one thing. A rebellion to displace the monarch because it's impossible to put someone you feel should be king on the throne? Why in the world would they do that?

I never said everyone was. It would just take a few people in the right positions of power who think they'll benefit from her being gone. That said I know it's not plausible, neither is Alistair leading a rebellion. 

Who knows maybe it'll be over the food shortages and they'll make a point on how she doesn't care about royal blood either by how she killed Alistair.

Also there was no rebellion to replace Anora. Her father kept acting for her and she overracted and saw him as a threat (I love how fast she turns on you if you don't dance on her strings) frankly the only reason the landsmeet was called was because of Loghain. If not for him she could've stayed in power just fine.

 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:46 .

[Addai]

@ejoslin:  Yeah ok, the card doesn't exist.  So you say.  But people keep reporting they've seen it. Whatevs...

Modifié par Addai67, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eamon and Teagan could claim the throne on the basis of being related to Rowan. But they don't.

Because they see Alistair as having a stronger position. 

Anora doesn't know about him, so she can't plan for that.
And most people think that Fiona's kid is in fact Alistair.

I doubt it. From what I've seen on the forums Maric seems to have gotten around. 

Besides judging from these forums Morrigan's Maric's kid too. 

Another reason I'll never do the DR again. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
No one is going to stop her, but it certainly is the mark of a tyrant.

Whatever you want to call it, it was legal and no one opposed it and it was vindicated at the end.

I don't mind "tyrants", so it's a non-issue for me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Because they see Alistair as having a stronger position. 

They still don't when rebelliosn were raised in his name.

They could in the future. But Anora can't kill them all at that moment.
What she can do is remove an "ace in the hole", which is a Therein, that will make all potential rebellions in the future much harder to do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I only place Anora on the throne alone if I'm leaving Fereldan. If my PC plans on staying there its always Anora + Hardened Alistair. They do work the best together after all. It's the only royal ending I seen the Golden Age result from.  

Oh no, someone else has seen the epilogue card that doesn't exist. 

Okay, I'm checking the toolset.

Unhardened Alistair and Anora marry: In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora fell into the routine of ruling Ferelden. Anora was a skilled governor, adept at matters of court and more than willing to spend her time judging matters of law from the throne... and Alistair was quite happy to let her do so. He traveled frequently, making personal appearances that delighted commoners to no end.

Hardened Alistair and Anora marry: In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora proved themselves a surprisingly effective pair. Alistair spent a great deal of time at court, showing willingness to learn the art of governing from Anora and often deferring to her judgment--and no one was more surprised by this than Anora herself. The two of them made numerous outings into Denerim and the other settlements in Ferelden, supervising the reconstruction process and greeting their subjects personally, much to the commoners' enthusiastic approval. Many said the chaos of the civil war and Landsmeet were worth it for delivering such beloved monarchs.

Unhardened Alistair solo King: In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair proved to be a popular king... if largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing. He traveled often, making appearances in towns throughout Ferelden to the great delight of the commoners. They referred to him as a king with the "common touch," even if a few knew it was a simple aversion to life at court.

Hardened Alistair solo King: In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair surprised many by studying the art of governance and doing his best to rule the kingdom with a fair and even hand. He proved quite popular with the people, his humor and easy grace winning them over as much as his willingness to sneak out of the castle and mingle in the lower-class taverns on occasion.

No Romance Marry Alistair: <FirstName/> married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden. As both their savior and new ruler, she proved incredibly popular among the people, and Alistair allowed his bride a great deal of leeway to act as she wished.

Romance Alistair: <FirstName/> married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden. The two toured the nation soon afterwards, and the people were ecstatic to see how the king adored his new bride.

Anora Solo Ruler: In the months that followed her coronation, Anora proved herself an adept ruler. Trade agreements with other lands quickly brought new funds into the royal coffers, and with them, the queen saw the capital rebuilt. The army was restored, laws were passed to encourage freeholders to produce sufficient harvests, and plans were conceived for a university.

Anora Marry Cousland: <FirstName/> married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

I only see one mention of a golden age. Of course, the 'the Blight and Landsmeet? Totally worth it' is pretty impressive for hardened Alistair/Anora. Just because people said it might turn into one doesn't mean that it will or that any of the other ones won't. That epilogue slide was clearly written not long into the reign as it's not even clear whether they'll end up fighting for power or not so it's not a guarentee that that's the best possible outcome.