261 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Executing him without giving him a chance to do so is like... executing him without giving him a chance to do so.

Leaving without doing so is forfeiting your chance to do so.

He hadn't left, just announced his intention to do so.  When he says "what else do you want from me?", that is Anora's cue to say "you need to renounce your claim publicly."  Which he will always do when called upon to do so.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

@ejoslin:  Yeah ok, the card doesn't exist.  So you say.  But people keep reporting they've seen it. Whatevs...

/shrug It was probably posted somewhere, and honestly, since people report they saw it "a year ago", sometimes memory is a very funny thing.  It doesn't exist.  *sigh*  See, the thing is, there is a lot that is left in the toolset that is not supposed to trigger -- but it is NOT taken out, a note is made not to use it.  And Alistair and Anora do get VERY positive cards.  And the power of suggestion is quite strong.

What makes it very unlikely that the card never existed, though, is there are bugs in the epilogue with both Morrigan and Zevran, and incorrect cards triggering. They're very easy to fix, and quite widely reported.  Had something THAT major been done to the file, it's very VERY hard to believe that the other bugs would not at least be addressed.

Plus a new card would have to be written.  It's just so unlikely they would do a change like that, which is NOT a bug, yet leave very well known bugs in.  But whatever...  I'm sure the people who are in charge of all that would take the time and money to write a new card and not fix some flags @@

Edit: Leaving this in, but realizing no one really cares whether there was a card there or not.  It certainly isn't in there now while many bugs are, but people will believe what they want to believe.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
He hadn't left, just announced his intention to do so.  When he says "what else do you want from me?", that is Anora's cue to say "you need to renounce your claim publicly."  Which he will always do when called upon to do so.

She didn't execute him immediately either, she announced her intention to do so and she explained why.

In any case, this is not really relevent. She wants him dead to remove the threat that his name poses. She isn't happy about it, but for her it must be done.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Crap. I could've sworn I saw it. D:

Well...sorry folks I was wrong. *Hangs head*

Edit: Also why does M!Cousland and Anora get the chance for a Golden Age but F!Cousland and Alistair doesn't? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Sarah1281]

Furthermore, Anora knows he doesn't want the throne for himself and has no such ambitions.

Sure, he says that. Sure, she says that he doesn't want it. Then Alistair goes all 'Make me king!' which seems to imply otherwise.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
No one is going to stop her, but it certainly is the mark of a tyrant.

Whatever you want to call it, it was legal and no one opposed it and it was vindicated at the end.

I don't mind "tyrants", so it's a non-issue for me.

I think what is vindicated metagame-wise is that Alistair shows he's the bigger man.  Anora even acknowledges it when she says of his treatment of her, "that is uncharacteristically wise of you."   Which he did after Anora has continued to foment open rebellion after the Landsmeet has decided against her- something, as I'll say again, Alistair never does.  Anora simply believes that everyone is as ruthless and calculating as she is and acts accordingly.  In a lot of instances she would be right, but it just makes me all the more glad to put Alistair on the throne instead of her.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:53 .

[ejoslin]

Some may say that marks Alistair as a weaker ruler. I personally believe it's not the wisest move not only keeping her alive, but declaring her heir in that situation, but I'm prepared to be shouted down

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I think what is vindicated metagame-wise is that Alistair shows he's the bigger man.  Anora even acknowledges it when she says of his treatment of her, "that is uncharacteristically wise of you."   Which he did after Anora has continued to foment open rebellion after the Landsmeet has decided against her- something, as I'll say again, Alistair never does.  Anora simply believes that everyone is as ruthless and calculating as she is and acts accordingly.  In a lot of instances she would be right, but it just makes me all the more glad to put Alistair on the throne instead of her.

Completely different situations.

Alistair is going to battle, as a Warden, and knows there is a great chance he might die and he has no heir. So to leave Anora alive is indeed wise. Anora on the otherhand is not going to fight and there is a lesser chance for her to die, so she does not have to spare Alistair at all.

And let's not get into Alistair being a "bigger man". I think there was a situation where him being that would have been very much appreciated.

[Ryzaki]

I can't place Anora on the throne simply because what's the point? The only reason I see placing Anora on the throne is if you don't want any power at all, are leaving Fereldan, want Alistair to yourself or want to marry her as a male. You get a lot more power with an unhardened Alistair on the throne if that's what you want.

Since most of my characters are wanderers they place Anora+Alistair but the few that were powerhungry always went with unhardened Alistair and (rarely) hardened Alistair.

Edit: Heck Alistair still lets you be chancellor even if he hates your guts. 

Edit: KnightofPhoenix who is your avatar? I feel like I know him and it's on to top of my head but...gah! It's driving me mad. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Anora even acknowledges it when she says of his treatment of her, "that is uncharacteristically wise of you."

It's wise of him to keep her around as his heir in case he dies in the Blight because he's going to fight it and probably die. Anora will not fight in the Blight and so has a far greater chance of surviving and thus doesn't need an heir. Particularly not one who is too disgusted to so much as stay in the country.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

I can't place Anora on the throne simply because what's the point? The only reason I see placing Anora on the throne is if you don't want any power at all, are leaving Fereldan, want Alistair to yourself or want to marry her as a male. You get a lot more power with an unhardened Alistair on the throne if that's what you want.

Since most of my characters are wanderers they place Anora+Alistair but the few that were powerhungry always went with unhardened Alistair and (rarely) hardened Alistair.

You can have power if you're her chancellor. Not as much as an unhardened or even hardened Alistair will give you but it's still nothing to laugh at. Plus, if you can use your hero status wisely then you'll be able to amass even more power.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I can't place Anora on the throne simply because what's the point? The only reason I see placing Anora on the throne is if you don't want any power at all, are leaving Fereldan, want Alistair to yourself or want to marry her as a male. You get a lot more power with an unhardened Alistair on the throne if that's what you want.

Since most of my characters are wanderers they place Anora+Alistair but the few that were powerhungry always went with unhardened Alistair and (rarely) hardened Alistair.

You can have power if you're her chancellor. Not as much as an unhardened or even hardened Alistair will give you but it's still nothing to laugh at. Plus, if you can use your hero status wisely then you'll be able to amass even more power.

That was exactly my point. 

If you want power generally you're going to want as much of it as you can get. 

Plus I won't have to worry about getting stabbed in the back if he thinks I'm getting too much of it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

I can't place Anora on the throne simply because what's the point?

Caring about Ferelden and thinking that Anora is better for the country?
Even as Prince Consort, you can have a lot of power by also being Teyrn of Gwaren, brother to the Teyrn of Highever, and general of Ferelden's armies. Plus, extreme popularity.

Of course if power is the only thing you care about, being chancellor to an unhardened weak Alistair is quite a lot of power.

Ryzaki wrote...
Edit: KnightofPhoenix who is your avatar? I feel like I know him and it's on to top of my head but...gah! It's driving me mad. 

David Xanatos.

[KnightofPhoenix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
He hadn't left, just announced his intention to do so.  When he says "what else do you want from me?", that is Anora's cue to say "you need to renounce your claim publicly."  Which he will always do when called upon to do so.

She didn't execute him immediately either, she announced her intention to do so and she explained why.

In any case, this is not really relevent. She wants him dead to remove the threat that his name poses. She isn't happy about it, but for her it must be done.

Also, she does not execute him if he remains a Warden. It's the fact that he is leaving that makes her want to do it and it's a factor at play here.

She could have asked for his execution if Loghain is dead and Alistair was a warden, but she didn't. So it's Alistair leaving the order that makes him a threat.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caring about Ferelden and thinking that Anora is better for the country?

If I cared about Fereldan I'd put both her and hardened Alistair on the throne and hope they reproduce. 

Better for the country how? The only evidence I have of her being good is the state Fereldan was in before which depending on origin may not look so good. 

Even as Prince Consort, you can have a lot of power by also being Teyrn of Gwaren, brother to the Teyrn of Highever, and general of Ferelden's armies. Plus, extreme popularity.

Of course if power is the only thing you care about, being chancellor to an unhardened weak Alistair is quite a lot of power.

Once again my point. Plus you get those titles with Alistair too. So...I'm still not seeing the point in choosing Anora unless you're planning on marrying her or just don't want Alistair to be king.   

David Xanatos.

Hm...Not so familiar after all. 

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Some may say that marks Alistair as a weaker ruler. I personally believe it's not the wisest move not only keeping her alive, but declaring her heir in that situation, but I'm prepared to be shouted down

It's a case where I think being "a little bit weak," as Alistair says in one of his banters, is the greater good.  I'd rather have a ruler err on the side of compassion and restraint, as long as he gets the job done at the end of the day.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Completely different situations.

Alistair is going to battle, as a Warden, and knows there is a great chance he might die and he has no heir. So to leave Anora alive is indeed wise. Anora on the otherhand is not going to fight and there is a lesser chance for her to die, so she does not have to spare Alistair at all.

Anora has no heir, either, and with a Blight coming, it doesn't matter much if you're on the front lines.  Everyone is under mortal threat.  She acted unwisely and IMO out of overweening personal ambition.  No one's butt is golden enough for that throne but hers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
If I cared about Fereldan I'd put both her and hardened Alistair on the throne and hope they reproduce. 

Better for the country how? The only evidence I have of her being good is the state Fereldan was in before which depending on origin may not look so good.

She was trained to rule from childhood. She is smart. A capable of admnistrator, she is well liked by the nobility. And she is cunning.
Alistair on the otherhand has had no training, no experience at all in running a country, flat out tells you he doesn't like to lead and can't do it, is not known, nobles in the Tavern were skepitcal about him, in some instances doesn't even want to rule. 

So you might not know if she is the best for the country, but by comparing both options, Anora has a more impressive resume. Unless of course you are a city elf, then of course perspective might change quite a lot.

Once again my point. Plus you get those titles with Alistair too. So...I'm still not seeing the point in choosing Anora unless you're planning on marrying her or just don't want Alistair to be king. 

No actually you can't be Teyrn of Gwaren and chancellor at the same time.

And what's the point of making Alistair king unless you want power (thus using him), want to be Queen or don't want Anora on the throne? What's your point?

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anora even acknowledges it when she says of his treatment of her, "that is uncharacteristically wise of you."

It's wise of him to keep her around as his heir in case he dies in the Blight because he's going to fight it and probably die. Anora will not fight in the Blight and so has a far greater chance of surviving and thus doesn't need an heir. Particularly not one who is too disgusted to so much as stay in the country.

When does a ruler ever not need an heir?  See how well that worked out for Cailan.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Plus if she was oh so concerned about Fereldan instead of objecting to Alistair's crowning she would have suggested serving as her advisor. Instead she sputters and clings to a throne that doesn't belong to her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Anora has no heir, either, and with a Blight coming, it doesn't matter much if you're on the front lines.  Everyone is under mortal threat.  She acted unwisely and IMO out of overweening personal ambition.  No one's butt is golden enough for that throne but hers.

Not on an equal level, no. She is not putting her life at direct danger for her to need an heir. Alistair is. If the blight kills everyone, then all this is moot. Point is, Anora is not placing herself at risk like Alistair is. He needs an heir as a Warden, she doesn't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus if she was oh so concerned about Fereldan instead of objecting to Alistair's crowning she would have suggested serving as her advisor. Instead she sputters and clings to a throne that doesn't belong to her.

"Plus, if Alistair was oh so concerned about Ferelden, he would have remained to fight and not abandon it and its people that he was saying he wanted to rule a few seconds ago".

So let's not try to compare here. Both have flaws.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:20 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


She was trained to rule from childhood. She is smart. A capable of admnistrator, she is well liked by the nobility. And she is cunning.
Alistair on the otherhand has had no training, no experience at all in running a country, flat out tells you he doesn't like to lead and can't do it, is not known, nobles in the Tavern were skepitcal about him, in some instances doesn't even want to rule.

Yet he has people surronding him who knows these things including by your choice the Warden.

So you might not know if she is the best for the country, but by comparing both options, Anora has a more impressive resume. Unless of course you are a city elf, then of course perspective might change quite a lot.

Or Dalish, or a dwarf and the fact that...you know you've been traveling with this guy for the past year or so and know him pretty well by now wheres theres a possibility this woman has already betrayed you twice when you've known her for a few days.  

No actually you can't be Teyrn of Gwaren and chancellor at the same time.

And what's the point of making Alistair king unless you want power (thus using him), want to be Queen or don't want Anora on the throne? What's your point?

You can be Teryn of Gwaren and chancellor at the same time with Anora? Plus isn't that title just a "formality" when you pick Anora? It's decoration. With Alistair you actually have power (either that or it was a formality with her and hardened alistair). 

Actually you can let Alistair throne himself and not make him king at all. That doesn't happen with Anora. 

Plus at this point Alistair (unless you spare Loghain and even that's not really a betrayal as much as desertion) has never betrayed you while Anora could've twice. I'm going to have to go with the person who's been honest with me so far...

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus if she was oh so concerned about Fereldan instead of objecting to Alistair's crowning she would have suggested serving as her advisor. Instead she sputters and clings to a throne that doesn't belong to her.

"Plus, if Alistair was oh so concerned about Ferelden, he would have remained to fight and not abandon it and its people that he was saying he wanted to rule a few seconds ago".

So let's not try to compare here. Both have flaws.

Did I say he didn't have flaws?   Frankly I could've done without the whole Loghain OR Alistair choice. 

Yet that's another reason for me not to make her Queen she's more concerned about her power and position than the country itself. 

She has no problem with the last remaining wardens being executed if you don't agree to support her bid for the throne. Alistair never attacks you. He simply leaves. That doesn't truly hinder your ability to end the blight. He may be a bit of a brat for doing it, but he doesn't get in your way. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yet he has people surronding him who knows these things including by your choice the Warden.

Then I would much rather put them on the throne and not him.

Or Dalish, or a dwarf and the fact that...you know you've been traveling with this guy for the past year or so and know him pretty well by now wheres theres a possibility this woman has already betrayed you twice when you've known her for a few days.

Why would a dwarf not like the state Ferelden was in?
And yes, I've travelled with Alistair enough to know that he can't lead, with his own admittance, doesn't want to lead, and has not shown me any particular trait that I would deem good enough to make him king (I did not harden him, it must be said).

It goes both ways.

You can be Teryn of Gwaren and chancellor at the same time with Anora? Plus isn't that title just a "formality" when you pick Anora? It's decoration. With Alistair you actually have power (either that or it was a formality with her and hardened alistair).

No, you can be Prince Consort and Teyrn of Gwaren with Anora. Chancellor with Anora has not much power no. Prince Consort on the otherhand does, being the leader of the Ferelden's armies.

Plus at this point Alistair (unless you spare Loghain and even that's not really a betrayal as much as desertion) has never betrayed you while Anora could've twice. I'm going to have to go with the person who's been honest with me so far...

Betrayed you, you mean when you told Cauthrien about her after she told you not to do it? Who is betraying who?
Betrayed you, you mean her siding against you when you tell her that you will not support her? How dare she?

Pick whover you want, I am not here to judge your decisions nor do I care.  There is enough reason to want to pick either. If you don't see it, good for you.