261 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Which is why I'd be more inclined to lop off Eamon's head.

Why? What does Eamon do that warrants death?
He's a politician, as is Anora. He hasn't commited any crime, quite the opposite, he's the one who called the Landsmeet. He wants to put Alistair on the throne because of the Theirin blood and he thinks the boy is going to turn to him for advice. Like Anora and Loghain he thinks he's better equipped to deal with the trouble. That's a good plan, even if it would have been smarter to train Alistair properly to begin with but hey, everyone makes mistakes.

Failing that, Eamon is willing to stand down and support Anora or Loghain and hope for the best. Anora and Loghain obviously would rather see their country go to hell than give up.

I still don't see what's wrong with Eamon's attitude.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[TJPags]

klarabella wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Which is why I'd be more inclined to lop off Eamon's head.

Why? What does Eamon do that warrants death?
He's a politician, as is Anora. He hasn't commited any crime, quite the opposite, he's the one who called the Landsmeet. He wants to put Alistair on the throne because of the Theirin blood and he thinks the boy is going to turn to him for advice. Like Anora and Loghain he thinks he's better equipped to deal with the trouble. That's a good plan, even if it would have been smarter to train Alistair properly to begin with but hey, everyone makes mistakes.

Failing that, Eamon is willing to stand down and support Anora or Loghain and hope for the best. Anora and Loghain obviously would rather see their country go to hell than give up.

I still don't see what's wrong with Eamon's attitude.

Exactly.  So many people seem to have serious dislike for Eamon, and I don't get it.

I mean, I don't like the guy much, but neither do I dislike him.  Here he goes and gets poisoned on Loghain's orders, nearly dies, perhaps loses family members in the process, and wakes up to find out Caillan is dead, Loghain is acting as Regent for Anora, there's been no Landsmeet, there's a Blight going on, and the land is in civil war.  Can he really be blamed for calling a Landsmeet and seeking to remove Anora/Loghain from power, and putting the last surviving Theiren on the throne?

He doesn't call for Loghain's execution, and doesn't open his mouth if you make him a Grey Warden, so that part is out.  He doesn't publicly call for Anora's execution or imprisonment, so I can't see that.  In fact, other than suggesting Alistair as King, and calling the Landsmeet, he doesn't do a whole heck of a lot of talking . . .and when he does, he even speaks favorably about Anora and a possible Alistair-Anora match.

So why the hate?

[Xilizhra]

I think that in Return to Ostagar, it turns out that Eamon was encouraging Cailain to dump Anora and marry the Orlesian empress, effectively vassalizing Ferelden to their old oppressors while probably giving Eamon a nice spot of extra power.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that in Return to Ostagar, it turns out that Eamon was encouraging Cailain to dump Anora and marry the Orlesian empress, effectively vassalizing Ferelden to their old oppressors while probably giving Eamon a nice spot of extra power.

Not so.

While it seems clear he was suggesting Caillan leave Anora, the only thing that links this to Caillan marrying Celene is the fact that the letters are all in the same chest.  There's nothing in Eamon's letter which suggests he advises Caillan to consider marrying Celene.

Now, if you want to consider that, it's fine - Eamon is married to an Orlesian himself, so I suppose you can legitimately RP that.  But it's a jump that the game doesn't make for you.

[Wulfram]

I think the main thing which counts against Eamon is that you're rather stuck with him in game.  So if you don't like him, it would get frustrating.

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that in Return to Ostagar, it turns out that Eamon was encouraging Cailain to dump Anora and marry the Orlesian empress, effectively vassalizing Ferelden to their old oppressors while probably giving Eamon a nice spot of extra power.

He wants Cailan to divorce Anora, but the extent of his connection to the proposed Orlesian marriage is less clear.

[Nerys]

I think that it can be interpreted that Eamon wants to be the power behind the throne. He basically orders Alistair to come forward as king, though it is not what Alistair wants (initially at least). I always thought he sort of still saw Alistair as the little boy he knew, rather than the Grey Warden and the man that Alistair had become. I have played it though several times. Sometimes I like Eamon, and sometimes I think he is a manipulative bastard. It just depends on how you interpreted his actions, and what responses you got while talking to him I think.

[Sarah1281]

He doesn't call for Loghain's execution, and doesn't open his mouth if you make him a Grey Warden, so that part is out. He doesn't publicly call for Anora's execution or imprisonment, so I can't see that. In fact, other than suggesting Alistair as King, and calling the Landsmeet, he doesn't do a whole heck of a lot of talking . . .and when he does, he even speaks favorably about Anora and a possible Alistair-Anora match.

Actually, he does call for Anora's imprisonment but - to be fair - this is after he first asks her to renounce her claim to the throne and she basically tells him to go to hell. He doesn't really like Anora, though so the last part isn't true. He DOES say that Anora on their side presents the strongest case to the Landsmeet before the Landsmeet but he tries to backstab her at the Landsmeet. If Loghain dies, he's all 'So it is decided. Alistair will take his father's throne.'



If Anora and Alistair have arranged to be married, Anora lampshades this with "So much for our plan to rule together." If you actutally go through with the match, post-Landsmeet Eamon says "Marrying Alistair to Anora would NOT have been my first choice." Then he tells you that he SUPPOSES he ought to thank you. Really, he hates the idea. Given that he thinks she's barren and wants a Theirin heir, that's really not surprising.

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think that in Return to Ostagar, it turns out that Eamon was encouraging Cailain to dump Anora and marry the Orlesian empress, effectively vassalizing Ferelden to their old oppressors while probably giving Eamon a nice spot of extra power.

Eamon was encouraging Cailan to dump Anora and remarry, so there might be a Theirin heir. It is never stated anywhere that Eamon wanted Cailan to marry Celene. I fail to see how this would fit into Eamon's agenda. He wants a Theirin heir and a fair bit of influence if possible, the 38-y-o Emperess of Orlais is certainly not  a candidate Eamon would approve of.

Unless you think Ferelden is lost without Anora as the secret administrator behind the puppet king, I don't see how encouraging Cailan to divorce Anora is such a terrible thing.

And btw, RtO as it got implemented doesn't  even state that Cailan was going to marry Celene, it's only a conclusion Loghain is drawing when he's confronted with the letters.

[TJPags]

Wulfram wrote...

I think the main thing which counts against Eamon is that you're rather stuck with him in game.  So if you don't like him, it would get frustrating.

Oh, this is very true.  Like I said, I don't much like the guy, and he does annoy me - mainly because of all the dame time I spend trying to revive the useless guy.  But it's a far jump from me not likiing him much to actively disliking him and farther still to 'he deserves his head lopped off'

Sarah1281 wrote...

He doesn't call for Loghain's execution, and doesn't open his mouth if you make him a Grey Warden, so that part is out. He doesn't publicly call for Anora's execution or imprisonment, so I can't see that. In fact, other than suggesting Alistair as King, and calling the Landsmeet, he doesn't do a whole heck of a lot of talking . . .and when he does, he even speaks favorably about Anora and a possible Alistair-Anora match.

Actually, he does call for Anora's imprisonment but - to be fair - this is after he first asks her to renounce her claim to the throne and she basically tells him to go to hell. He doesn't really like Anora, though so the last part isn't true. He DOES say that Anora on their side presents the strongest case to the Landsmeet before the Landsmeet but he tries to backstab her at the Landsmeet. If Loghain dies, he's all 'So it is decided. Alistair will take his father's throne.'

If Anora and Alistair have arranged to be married, Anora lampshades this with "So much for our plan to rule together." If you actutally go through with the match, post-Landsmeet Eamon says "Marrying Alistair to Anora would NOT have been my first choice." Then he tells you that he SUPPOSES he ought to thank you. Really, he hates the idea. Given that he thinks she's barren and wants a Theirin heir, that's really not surprising.

Yes, all true, but he doesn't suggest she die.  Imprisoning her in that scenario makes a whole lot of sense.  Killing her makes more, actually, but again, he doesn't suggest that. 

As for Loghain, sure, he doesn't seem broken up about him dying, but again - Loghain's orders had him poisioned, which possibly resulted in the death of his wife or child, Loghain's failed charge/withdrawal is linked with Caillan's death, the civil war, etc.  As these are some of the reasons why the warden is even given the option of killing Loghain, it makes MORE sense (IMO) for Eamon to be pissed at this, but he never speaks up and says "kill him".

And while he may not have really WANTED Alistair to marry Anora, again, he doesn't try to talk Ali out of it or speak against it.

A lot of this is game mechanics, I admit, but still - it's there.

[Sarah1281]

And while he may not have really WANTED Alistair to marry Anora, again, he doesn't try to talk Ali out of it or speak against it.

He can't really do either of those. He already shows his hand by trying to get the Landsmeet to accept just Alistair. Anora objects and Alistair points out that it hasn't been decided and so Eamon turns to you. If you are given the power to choose between them and choose to marry them (and they both agree) then that is what the Landsmeet has decided. They will be joint rulers and Eamon just has to live with it. The only way Alistair can get out of marrying Anora since she has an equal claim to the throne post-Landsmeet is if he decides he's not interested in being king after all and gives up his own claim.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Actually, he does call for Anora's imprisonment but - to be fair - this is after he first asks her to renounce her claim to the throne and she basically tells him to go to hell. He doesn't really like Anora, though so the last part isn't true. He DOES say that Anora on their side presents the strongest case to the Landsmeet before the Landsmeet but he tries to backstab her at the Landsmeet. If Loghain dies, he's all 'So it is decided. Alistair will take his father's throne.'

I don't think this has anything to do with wether he likes Anora or not. He's a politician. He even admits that she's a capable administrator, but he doesn't trust Anora to stop her own father ... and he's not entirely wrong with that as Anora's support depends on what she believes her chances to grab the throne are. 

Eamon obviously still believes a Theirin ruler under his influence is the better option and of course he's trying to make this happen. And why not? He's a well-respected man and obviously knows his fair share of politics.
You may call that backstabbing but since you totally approve of Bhelen's and Anora's backstabbing ... why is Eamon's doing the same so terrible?

Modifié par klarabella, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Actually, he does call for Anora's imprisonment but - to be fair - this is after he first asks her to renounce her claim to the throne and she basically tells him to go to hell. He doesn't really like Anora, though so the last part isn't true. He DOES say that Anora on their side presents the strongest case to the Landsmeet before the Landsmeet but he tries to backstab her at the Landsmeet. If Loghain dies, he's all 'So it is decided. Alistair will take his father's throne.'

I don't think this has anything to do with wether he likes Anora or not. He's a politician. He even admits that she's a capable administrator, but he doesn't trust Anora to stop her own father ... and he's not entirely wrong with that as Anora's support depends on what she believes her chances to grab the throne are. 

Eamon obviously still believes a Theirin ruler under his influence is the better option and of course he's trying to make this happen. And why not? He's a well-respected man and obviously knows his fair share of politics.
You may call that backstabbing but since you totally approve of Bhelen's and Anora's backstabbing ... why is Eamon's doing the same so terrible?

It's my interpretation of the scenes Anora and Eamon are in that they don't like each other. I feel it is backstabbing when he knows the plan is to put them both in power and then immediately and without Anora saying or doing anything he tries to go back on the deal.

I don't happen to particularly dislike Eamon or think he's terrible, though. I was just pointing out that he's not in favor of Anora/Alistair which somoeone above claimed that he was. If you'll notice, I also mentioned that I understood that his wanting an heir and theory about Anora's inability to have one plays at least some part in this.

[nos_astra]

Oh, then I misread something. You're right, he grudgingly accepts Anora and as you said, it makes sense as he blames her for the lack of an heir. He's a politician.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He is a reasonable politician and I've always respected Eamon. Heck, he even speaks well of Loghain almost all the time. I dislike how he in some ways uses Alistair, but more so how he doesn't show that much respect. You don't refer to the man you want to be king in the 3rd person while he is there, not letting him speak his mind, and then expect me to be convinced.

What I am worried about however is what potentially could happen later, as hinted in Witch Hunt. apparently the Bannorn are polarizing around Redcliff and its Arl for leadership. If this continues, this could lead to Ferelden being split in two. I do not know if Eamon is deliberately doing this, or if the civil war experience is leading the Bannorn to do this out of their own accord. But if this continues, the Guerreins would be a threat to Fereldeen and they will have to be dealt with one way or the other.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I am worried about however is what potentially could happen later, as hinted in Witch Hunt. apparently the Bannorn are polarizing around Redcliff and its Arl for leadership. If this continues, this could lead to Ferelden being split in two. I do not know if Eamon is deliberately doing this, or if the civil war experience is leading the Bannorn to do this out of their own accord. But if this continues, the Guerreins would be a threat to Fereldeen and they will have to be dealt with one way or the other.

Why shouldn't they?  From their perspective, Denerim produced a tyrant and Redcliffe helped liberate them from that tyrant.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I am worried about however is what potentially could happen later, as hinted in Witch Hunt. apparently the Bannorn are polarizing around Redcliff and its Arl for leadership. If this continues, this could lead to Ferelden being split in two. I do not know if Eamon is deliberately doing this, or if the civil war experience is leading the Bannorn to do this out of their own accord. But if this continues, the Guerreins would be a threat to Fereldeen and they will have to be dealt with one way or the other.

Why shouldn't they?  From their perspective, Denerim produced a tyrant and Redcliffe helped liberate them from that tyrant.

Just because they might have a reason doesn't make this turn of events any less of a threat for the centralized government in Denerim.

[CalJones]

This happens even if Alistair is sole king. It's not looking good either way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Why shouldn't they?  From their perspective, Denerim produced a tyrant and Redcliffe helped liberate them from that tyrant.

I understand perfectly why they are doing it.
It  doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. Or Denerim has to. The Bannorn has always been a thorn in Ferelden's back and  without a centralised government, the country has little chance.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I am worried about however is what potentially could happen later, as hinted in Witch Hunt. apparently the Bannorn are polarizing around Redcliff and its Arl for leadership. If this continues, this could lead to Ferelden being split in two. I do not know if Eamon is deliberately doing this, or if the civil war experience is leading the Bannorn to do this out of their own accord. But if this continues, the Guerreins would be a threat to Fereldeen and they will have to be dealt with one way or the other.

Why shouldn't they?  From their perspective, Denerim produced a tyrant and Redcliffe helped liberate them from that tyrant.

This.  And now, potentially, a king who has no training, no experience, and doesn't even WANT the job (unhardened Alistair) and is a Grey Warden (who shouldn't have any titles, yes?) or some up-jumped commoners daughter (Anora) as Queen.  Not to mention the last man on the throne, who it seems was universally regarded as a babbling idiot (Cailan).

Denerim hasn't done much good lately, has it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Denerim hasn't done much good lately, has it?

With Anora, it does.

[Sarah1281]

We have no evidence that ANYONE thinks Anora is a 'jumped-up commoners daughter.' Loghain suspects Eamon secretly thinks that but that's it. Everyone else is perfectly fine with her being the daughter of a war hero and Teyrn and have had over two decades prior to Origins to get used to the idea.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Denerim hasn't done much good lately, has it?

With Anora, it does.

True, but there's still the commoner's daughter issue.

Sarah1281 wrote...

We have no evidence that ANYONE thinks Anora is a 'jumped-up commoners daughter.' Loghain suspects Eamon secretly thinks that but that's it. Everyone else is perfectly fine with her being the daughter of a war hero and Teyrn and have had over two decades prior to Origins to get used to the idea.

I distinctly remember a rumor - I believe it comes from Bodahn, but could be mistaken there - about people thinking either the Blight was punishment for having a commoner's daughter on the throne, or that her barreness is due to the Maker's anger over a commoner on the throne.

Either way, some people ARE thinking it.

[Sarah1281]

I distinctly remember a rumor - I believe it comes from Bodahn, but could be mistaken there - about people thinking either the Blight was punishment for having a commoner's daughter on the throne, or that her barreness is due to the Maker's anger over a commoner on the throne.



Either way, some people ARE thinking it.

The banns are turning to Redcliffe. The commoners are the ones with that idiotic rumor.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I distinctly remember a rumor - I believe it comes from Bodahn, but could be mistaken there - about people thinking either the Blight was punishment for having a commoner's daughter on the throne, or that her barreness is due to the Maker's anger over a commoner on the throne.

Either way, some people ARE thinking it.

The banns are turning to Redcliffe. The commoners are the ones with that idiotic rumor.

Well, when people are saying something, it gets around to those in charge.  That's one.
Or, it starts with those in charge, and gets to those commoners you mention.   That's two.

And, well, after Loghain tried to bully the hell out of them, WHILE Anora was ostensibly Queen, would it be so out of line for them to not be happy if she's on the throne?  That's three.

Or, why would they turn to Alistair, when the man who PROMOTED Ali for the throne, and wanted to advise them, is sitting there in Redliffe?   That's four.

All various reasons for them to turn to Redcliffe.  Which is not completely a bad thing - remember, umarried Anora never remarries, so no heir.  Alistair is a Grey Warden - chance of heir, with Anora, the HNF, or anyone else - pretty slim.  They need to look SOMEWHERE for stability, and Eamon is well-respected, no?

[Sarah1281]

I refuse to believe that the nobles are so stupid as to ACTUALLY buy that the Maker was punishing Ferelden for putting a commoner on the throne by not letting her conceive. Everyone knew that Anora wasn't the ruling queen as Loghain was her REGENT and ruling queens who are present, of age, and not debilitated don't have those. They'd see him as taking her power as well and none of that has anything to do with them thinking she's a commoner.



And since Eamon's son is a mage and his possible daughter is also a mage, turning to him for a new line is stupid.