261 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Well, the templar in Lothering (I can't think of his name) certainly thinks Anora is not fit to be queen as Loghain is a commoner.



And one reason why there is so much Eamon hate: If you believe what Alistair says, Eamon had him sleeping with the hounds, ignoring him for the most part, then shipping him away when his wife asked him to. There are Alistair fangirls who feel this is as bad as Zevran's upbringing (yes, I'm serious) and so of course they'll hate Eamon.



I don't like the way Eamon, Anora, and Loghain all treat my warden as a tool. But that is politics. I think Anora is the most honest about it, though.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I refuse to believe that the nobles are so stupid as to ACTUALLY buy that the Maker was punishing Ferelden for putting a commoner on the throne by not letting her conceive. Everyone knew that Anora wasn't the ruling queen as Loghain was her REGENT and ruling queens who are present, of age, and not debilitated don't have those. They'd see him as taking her power as well and none of that has anything to do with them thinking she's a commoner.

And since Eamon's son is a mage and his possible daughter is also a mage, turning to him for a new line is stupid.

Oh, I think that's dumb too . . . but it's really just an excuse for not liking the commoner on the throne, no? 

Frankly, I can see nobles not liking this more than commoners - wouldn't a commoner, logically, LIKE seeing another commoner getting ahead?  It would be minor nobles who WOULDN'T like this, I would think.

And hey, they want guidance from somone respected, who did NOT allow their country to get walked over by a tyrant, or ravaged by a Blight.  Makes sense to me.

Re: Anora as Queen.  Loghain specifically says "Anora is Queen, I am her Regent".  It's his own words that give her that title.  Remember, I don't think she has ANY right to the throne, per se - being the dead King's wife is not, IMO, a qualification for the throne.  So, while I agree she wasn't ACTUALLY Queen, Loghain frames his power grab (yes, my words and impression) as taking place under her rule.  She never disavows him until the Landsmeet - and silence sometimes is viewed as consent.
I can easily see one of the Banns viewing the scenario as follows:
Loghain rules in Anora's name, acts on her behalf.  She says nothing negative about it.  Only at the Landsmeet, when he is on the verge of losing - thus, HER losing the throne - does she renounce him.  Yes, it seals his defeat, but also keeps her as a viable condidate for power - perhaps to continue acts like her father started.
Now, I don't see this as what she's doing, but it's a reasonable interpreation, and reason for the Banns to look to someone else for guidance.

[Sarah1281]

And Anora is called queen when Cailan is alive and she has no official power but has to rule in Cailan's name as well.

[TJPags]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the templar in Lothering (I can't think of his name) certainly thinks Anora is not fit to be queen as Loghain is a commoner.

And one reason why there is so much Eamon hate: If you believe what Alistair says, Eamon had him sleeping with the hounds, ignoring him for the most part, then shipping him away when his wife asked him to. There are Alistair fangirls who feel this is as bad as Zevran's upbringing (yes, I'm serious) and so of course they'll hate Eamon.

I don't like the way Eamon, Anora, and Loghain all treat my warden as a tool. But that is politics. I think Anora is the most honest about it, though.

Wasn't the whole sleeping with the hounds thing largely exageration and a joke on Ali's part?  I'm pretty sure that, when pressed, he admits he only slept with the dogs sometimes, and on his own choice, not that he was forced to do so.

Shipping him off the the Chantry when his new wife complains about the unknown bastard living in the castle - is that so bad, really?  The chantry is hardly an orphanage, and did Isolde know who Alistair's father is?  She might well have assumed that Eamon was the father, and wanted him out of the way of her own son.  Maybe a little cold, but perfectly understandable, and hardly a terrible thing, IMO.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And Anora is called queen when Cailan is alive and she has no official power but has to rule in Cailan's name as well.

She didn't have to, she wanted to and Cailan let her make the decisions. However, whatever she decided would still have to be ordered by the king himself.

And of course she is called queen. She's a queen-consort.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:26 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Anora is called queen when Cailan is alive and she has no official power but has to rule in Cailan's name as well.

Sure, but her only power comes from him - whatever power he gives her.  I don't think she was running around issuing orders in her own name - rather, issuing them over Cailan's seal, basically using his authority.

She was Queen-consort, not Queen-regnant.  She HAD no power, except what Cailan gave her, and that ended when he died.

I thought you and I agreed on this??

[Sarah1281]

She didn't have to, she wanted to and Cailan let her. And of course she is called queen.

Sorry, by 'had to' I meant not that she was being forced to rule but that her ruling had to be done in her husbands name and that her being called 'queen' by Loghain doesn't have to mean that she's been confirmed as a ruling queen.

She was Queen-consort, not Queen-regnant. She HAD no power, except what Cailan gave her, and that ended when he died.



I thought you and I agreed on this??

We do. I just don't think that Loghain clearly pulling a military coup and claiming it was legitimate because Anora had been the queen-consort would make people have a problem with Anora since it's not like she can do anything.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
I can easily see one of the Banns viewing the scenario as follows:
Loghain rules in Anora's name, acts on her behalf.  She says nothing negative about it.  Only at the Landsmeet, when he is on the verge of losing - thus, HER losing the throne - does she renounce him.  Yes, it seals his defeat, but also keeps her as a viable condidate for power - perhaps to continue acts like her father started.
Now, I don't see this as what she's doing, but it's a reasonable interpreation, and reason for the Banns to look to someone else for guidance.

Which means that you shouldn't get that map note if Alistair is sole king, but you still do. Clearly there's something going on in the Bannorn as early as Awakening because a King Alistair has to leave Vigil's Keep to "take care of the business in the Bannorn" or something like that.

Honestly though, I think it's just game mechanics to set up problems with succession and a pretty big upheaval with Ferelden's nobility.

[nos_astra]

You never know what people think.

I agree, it's just meant to make things interesting. Or did you believe the new monarch was going to have no troubles at all? Especially after the Blight I'd expect upheaval.

I always pictured a good part of Ferelden as blighted and barren the north is swamped with refugees, the bannorn are devastated, there's no harvest to expect, food shortages, epidemics, violence. In my mind it would take years to heal, maybe even decades. I'm fairly sure Ferelden is in pretty bad shape after the Blight.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I always pictured a good part of Ferelden as blighted and barren the north is swamped with refugees, the bannorn are devastated, there's no harvest to expect, food shortages, epidemics, violence. In my mind it would take years to heal, maybe even decades. I'm fairly sure Ferelden is in pretty bad shape after the Blight.

Yep, and that's why it's Denerim and its coastland allies that will have the ressources necessary to help them (via trade), and not the pitiful fishing village that is Redcliff.

The situation can be handled, it isn't a catastrophe. And Anora's policies are certainly the right way to go to deal with both Ferelden's internal problems and its weakness in the international arena.  Unless something extra-ordinary happens, or some exterior event, I dont' see this resulting in civil war if Denerim plays it right.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...

You never know what people think.

I agree, it's just meant to make things interesting. Or did you believe the new monarch was going to have no troubles at all? Especially after the Blight I'd expect upheaval.

I always pictured a good part of Ferelden as blighted and barren the north is swamped with refugees, the bannorn are devastated, there's no harvest to expect, food shortages, epidemics, violence. In my mind it would take years to heal, maybe even decades. I'm fairly sure Ferelden is in pretty bad shape after the Blight.

Well, the epilogue slides certainly make you think the new monarch will have no trouble, or at least not much trouble. Especially the HNM and Anora "Golden Age" slide. And there's a big difference between "oh, some people are fighting over trees again" and looking to Redcliffe for power.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I can easily see one of the Banns viewing the scenario as follows:
Loghain rules in Anora's name, acts on her behalf.  She says nothing negative about it.  Only at the Landsmeet, when he is on the verge of losing - thus, HER losing the throne - does she renounce him.  Yes, it seals his defeat, but also keeps her as a viable condidate for power - perhaps to continue acts like her father started.
Now, I don't see this as what she's doing, but it's a reasonable interpreation, and reason for the Banns to look to someone else for guidance.

Which means that you shouldn't get that map note if Alistair is sole king, but you still do. Clearly there's something going on in the Bannorn as early as Awakening because a King Alistair has to leave Vigil's Keep to "take care of the business in the Bannorn" or something like that.

Honestly though, I think it's just game mechanics to set up problems with succession and a pretty big upheaval with Ferelden's nobility.

Well, Alistair is untried, unknown, and if unhardened, doesn't even want the job.  So why would they trust him?  Plus his Grey Warden-ness.

But yes, I agree, that note is mainly game mechanics, possibly some kind of DA3 set up.  I'm just trying to mention logical reasons for it.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Well, Alistair is untried, unknown, and if unhardened, doesn't even want the job.  So why would they trust him?  Plus his Grey Warden-ness.

But yes, I agree, that note is mainly game mechanics, possibly some kind of DA3 set up.  I'm just trying to mention logical reasons for it.

Well, yes, I agree on the problems that might cause, but the entire reason he was pushed for the throne was because he was the last Theirin. I'm not sure if two years is enough time to give people reason to get antsy about the state of things.

Not to mention, like I stated above, you're not really given much of a clue that any of the rulers could be a problem based on the epilogue slides. And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

Modifié par Monica21, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
 And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

A backup plan from Eamon?
I would do the same. What if Alistair becomes too strong? What if the Teyrns of Gwaren and Highever, and other Coastland nobles, start objecting? Eamon will need a strong power base and that is the Bannorn.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Well, Alistair is untried, unknown, and if unhardened, doesn't even want the job.  So why would they trust him?  Plus his Grey Warden-ness.

But yes, I agree, that note is mainly game mechanics, possibly some kind of DA3 set up.  I'm just trying to mention logical reasons for it.

Well, yes, I agree on the problems that might cause, but the entire reason he was pushed for the throne was because he was the last Theirin. I'm not sure if two years is enough time to give people reason to get antsy about the state of things.

Not to mention, like I stated above, you're not really given much of a clue that any of the rulers could be a problem based on the epilogue slides. And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

No, 2 years is not long enough, true, but if they didn't trust it from the start, and kep getting good advice out of Eamon, they would start "increasingly" doing so.  Again, just a logical situation, IMO.

Good point on the chancelor aspect - since I never make Alistair king, I've never run into that, so it slipped my mind.   But it doesn't make much sense that way . . .  .unless they simply view Eamon (as chancelor) as the real power behind the throne, and simply choose to cut out the middleman, so to speak.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

A backup plan from Eamon?
I would do the same. What if Alistair becomes too strong? What if the Teyrns of Gwaren and Highever, and other Coastland nobles, start objecting? Eamon will need a strong power base and that is the Bannorn.

Are you saying that Eamon has left Denerim and gone back to Redcliffe? Because that means that, in less than two years' time even a sole, unhardened, King Alistair has stopped listening to Eamon's advice and essentially gone off the reservation. Nothing in the epilogue slides leaves us to believe that this would be the case.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

A backup plan from Eamon?
I would do the same. What if Alistair becomes too strong? What if the Teyrns of Gwaren and Highever, and other Coastland nobles, start objecting? Eamon will need a strong power base and that is the Bannorn.

Are you saying that Eamon has left Denerim and gone back to Redcliffe? Because that means that, in less than two years' time even a sole, unhardened, King Alistair has stopped listening to Eamon's advice and essentially gone off the reservation. Nothing in the epilogue slides leaves us to believe that this would be the case.

If he stays in Denerim, he abdicates in favor of Teagan, right? Teagan always goes along with Eamon's plans.

[Wulfram]

I don't really see much need to read anything into it except that Eamon is about the most important noble left alive, aside perhaps from the Grey Warden, and thus naturally one of Ferelden's leaders.



Ferelden is naturally a country with multiple centers of power, not an absolute monarchy like Orlais.



The Guerrins are also the most obvious successors to the throne, though they do also suffer from the same lack of heirs that pretty much everyone in Ferelden seems to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Are you saying that Eamon has left Denerim and gone back to Redcliffe? Because that means that, in less than two years' time even a sole, unhardened, King Alistair has stopped listening to Eamon's advice and essentially gone off the reservation. Nothing in the epilogue slides leaves us to believe that this would be the case.

No, he doesn't have to. He has a senechal there presumabely and he is still Arl of Redcliff even as Chancellor. He doesn't have to be there to excercize his power as such. He could even have Teagan as Arl of Redcliff and the two can coordinate their efforts.

I don't think it's Alistair, Eamon is worried about, but the other nobles, specifically the two Teyrns. So of course he would want a power base loyal to him. He could even make Redcliff a Ternir.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really see much need to read anything into it except that Eamon is about the most important noble left alive, aside perhaps from the Grey Warden, and thus naturally one of Ferelden's leaders.

Ferelden is naturally a country with multiple centers of power, not an absolute monarchy like Orlais.

The Guerrins are also the most obvious successors to the throne, though they do also suffer from the same lack of heirs that pretty much everyone in Ferelden seems to.

Why would Eamon be more powerful than Fergus? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why would Eamon be more powerful than Fergus? 

Because he is smarter....

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why would Eamon be more powerful than Fergus? 

Because he is smarter....

You mean because of the Amaranthine thing? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes. The Couslands could have controlled half the Coastlands, and with Cousland as Teyrn of Gwaren, 3/4. And if Prince Consort, almost all of it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
 And if Eamon is chancellor, why is anyone looking to Redcliffe? It doesn't make sense.

A backup plan from Eamon?
I would do the same. What if Alistair becomes too strong? What if the Teyrns of Gwaren and Highever, and other Coastland nobles, start objecting? Eamon will need a strong power base and that is the Bannorn.

Are you saying that Eamon has left Denerim and gone back to Redcliffe? Because that means that, in less than two years' time even a sole, unhardened, King Alistair has stopped listening to Eamon's advice and essentially gone off the reservation. Nothing in the epilogue slides leaves us to believe that this would be the case.

If he stays in Denerim, he abdicates in favor of Teagan, right? Teagan always goes along with Eamon's plans.

But if Alistair is too strong, what the hell is he doing by allowing Eamon and Teagan to let Redcliffe get away from him? If Eamon is still in Denerim, wouldn't that mean that Alistair is much weaker and letting Eamon walk all over him? If Eamon has left it means that he didn't like that Alistair wasn't accepting his advice and left on his own or Alistair told him to leave.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really see much need to read anything into it except that Eamon is about the most important noble left alive, aside perhaps from the Grey Warden, and thus naturally one of Ferelden's leaders.

Ferelden is naturally a country with multiple centers of power, not an absolute monarchy like Orlais.

The Guerrins are also the most obvious successors to the throne, though they do also suffer from the same lack of heirs that pretty much everyone in Ferelden seems to.

Why would Eamon be more powerful than Fergus? 

respect, mainly.

Eamon himself is well-respected.  Fergus, while a Cousland, is NOT his father.  He may be well thought of, and holds a powerful position, but hasn't yet earned the personal respect that Eamon seems to have.