339 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

aznsoisauce wrote...

Ooh~ Nice article

You're comparing the pictures side by side, though. Had it just been the `new' Dante, one may have been expecting the caption to be something like "MR. PILGRIM! I AM RAMONA'S FIRST EVIL EX BOYFRIEND!"

I lolled. Hahahaha. Oh man, Scott Pilgrim. /wipes away tear.

If they passed the series on to another studio specifically to visually reboot the series, and that's what the studio is doing... seems like a successful design to me. Perhaps others are more invested in the series, but I've seen quite enough modern urban fantasy stylebashing (looking at you, Tetsuya Nomura of the Belts and Zippers) out of Japan and something that is legitimately "this world" is a nice change. They also have the entire series' lore to keep on track so things people are objecting to, like the hair and cigarette and hipster bratness, well, they can't retcon away four games. DmC Dante becomes DMC Dante and there should be an excellent story about how that happens.

Edit to add: You are one funny person. Just read the Hideo bit of your reply. I think he's just proven he knows what he's doing beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'd write him a blank check to say "defecation" in my presence.

Phew, off topic.

Anyway my point is that time, money and resources are at stake with every decision so no decision is made "just because." If the design was changed it was because this one does the job better. We can't see why it does so yet because all we have is a screenshot and our gut reactions. I'm pretty sure that when they reveal the big picture, the old darkspawn would look very odd in it, and people will prefer the new one... as with every change they have made thus far. (Edit to add: people will inevitably still gripe about everything, but perhaps it will be more informed griping.)

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 octobre 2010 - 05:00 .

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Because you are fighting the same Darkspawn you were fighting in Origins except for no reason other than artist thinking it was neat, they look different.  Storywise, this makes not sense.  I am a big stickler on story making sense and continuity so this bothers me...a lot.  There is no justifiable reason that the same darkspawn you were fighting in origins all of a sudden look radically different.  

Next, I have not played Awakening but I assume the Disciples are a different sect of Darkspawn so it would at least have a story justification.  

No - the disciples are just hurlocks that drank darkspawn blood. All it did was supposedly free them for the archdemon. It makes no sense why they would magically evolve a new appearance. Hell, the children (or whatever they were called) from the human brood mother also made zero sense since it basically meant we've just evolved an entirely new kind of darkspawn that seems to have nothing to do with the one species = one corruption rule we saw previously.

As for them "looking" different. They don't. From the PoV of DA2, they've always looked like that. We, as players, obviously know they look different. But in-game there is no change, so it makes absolutely no sense to frame this as a continuity issue.

If in-game they observed a new darkspawn appeareance and then it was never explained, that would be a continuity issue. But this is just a re-imaging.

Brockololly wrote...
Well, it makes sense that the Disciples
look different as there is a lore justification for them looking
different as they're Awakened and a new breed basically. All I'm saying
with the new chalkspawn in DA2 is that at a glance they seem too similar
to the Disciples in that they're pale faced and wear the coif, yet lore
wise, the hurlocks in DA2 that we've seen are just supposed to be run
of the mill mindless hurlocks.

How is this a lore justification? All we know from the anti-Joining is that it seems to remove the call of the old god and grant free will. We don't know if they are a new breed. We have no reason to believe they are altered in any way other than the soul. The appearance of the Architect is even more nonsensical since he seems to be some kind of super special darkspawn.

Lore-wise, if you're going to invent plausible reasons for why the disciples look as they do, then just invent the what someone else in this thread did - they're just an evolution or whatever of the darkspawn. If that's the sort of way you're willing to resolve the dissonance, that is. Me, if it isn't mentioned explicitly, it didn't happen. So if everyone acts like the Disciples look like regular darkspawn (no one in-game comments on this) then the diciples are regular darkspawn.

Brockololly wrote...
The Flemeth one I can sort of buy into,
but the qunari retcon is weak. Even if you ignore the horns, they look
like gargoyles or something now. 

The qunari one is
stupid. They should have simply said they initially imagined them with
horns, decided against adding that model in, then changed their minds
that the qunari should look alien. Simple as that. All of these
ass-backwards leaps are just more implausible. Sometimes bitting the
bullet is good.

Brockololly wrote...
Because one person's looking cooler is
another person's looking lame. But its all subjective.

I completely agree. But this is what this argument boils down to. Did you subjectively like DA:O or not, re: art style?

Brockololly wrote...
It matters to me because video games are a
visual medium in addition to the story, gameplay and everything else.
Could Origins have improved visually? Sure! But I thought the visual
deficiencies of Origins had more to do with the technology than the art
style. Again, its subjective to be sure and all I'd like to see is some
consistency and continuity. 

Well, I'd happily grant tha the visual medium adds to the story. But then I'd go out and disagree and say that the art on the darkspawn in DA:O was horrible and failed completely to convey what the darkspawn were. The chalkspawn aren't much better, IMO - I actually like the disciple look best, minus their stupidly ornate armour. And hell, they're the only ones who even make sense wearing it, because they're at least smart enough to make it.

Brockololly wrote...
Its like with the first game informer
cover with Flemeth on it- did anyone immediately go "Oh thats clearly
Flemeth!" No, you had most people thinking that was an old Morrigan or
everything but Flemeth- fair enough she is a shapeshifter. Or with the
horned Qunari. Honestly, if somebody didn't tell me the horned Qunari
was a Qunari, I would have thought it to be a new race. 

I never saw the cover. The only Flemeth picture I saw was the old Hawke & Bethany one. Does Flemeth look significantly different now?

So yeah, if they change things up drastically again in DA3,
it hurts any sense of continuity you have in the DA universe. It makes
sense if things look different in a different country or something, but
not stuff that we saw a hundred times over in Origins.

And I loathe
cel-shading with an entirely irrational hatred that burns with the
intensity of a thousand suns. If DA3 went cel-shaded, I can say I would
not buy it entirely out of principle.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

I guess the darkspawn were just not iconic enough for me, and DA:A already broke any kind of - let's pretend this is not just the artist going out and drawing cool stuff vibe.

I'm very irate over the design change for Dante. The hair, mostly. That white hair is iconic. Everything else can change. But mess with Dante's hair and it's like giving hurlocks tentacles.

... Note to Bioware art team: giving hurlocks tentacles is not a good idea.

[In Exile]

aznsoisauce wrote...

But I have to ask...WHERE are all you people getting this Eastern/Asian/Japanese influence in design coming from? It keeps getting mentioned but no examples are provided. It's becoming offensive.

I believe it was one of the artists in a blog/interview that mentioned this as a major influence. This is the same group of artists that worked on JE, also. You can see that in similarities between the JE ogre and the DA2 ogre as an example.

I mean, personally I'm cutting a huge amount of slack to DA2 since I just loved the art and atmosphere in JE so much those artists can do no wrong for me. But still, this is where this whole "anime-is-like-a-slur" meme is coming from.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

In Exile wrote...
 But still, this is where this whole "anime-is-like-a-slur" meme is coming from.

Anime has such a bad rep. Like any media the IP with the brightest colors that makes the most noise gets the most attention regardless of whether it deserves it (like a certain highest grossing film I can think of), but there is some legitimately thought provoking, stimulating anime out there... as there are thought provoking, stimulating american cartoons.

(edit for specificity)

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[mellifera]

I think the influence they cite is a Japanese film, not even animation or games. One by Kurosawa, if I recall correctly, who is a highly influential and well regarded director.



And about anime, what pseudocognition said. Looking gritty and uber realistic does not a good and engaging story make either.

[aznsoisauce]

In Exile wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

But I have to ask...WHERE are all you people getting this Eastern/Asian/Japanese influence in design coming from? It keeps getting mentioned but no examples are provided. It's becoming offensive.

I believe it was one of the artists in a blog/interview that mentioned this as a major influence. This is the same group of artists that worked on JE, also. You can see that in similarities between the JE ogre and the DA2 ogre as an example.

I mean, personally I'm cutting a huge amount of slack to DA2 since I just loved the art and atmosphere in JE so much those artists can do no wrong for me. But still, this is where this whole "anime-is-like-a-slur" meme is coming from.

I see. Thank you for the clarification. 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

yukidama wrote...

I think the influence they cite is a Japanese film, not even animation or games. One by Kurosawa, if I recall correctly, who is a highly influential and well regarded director
.

He's responsible for the Seven Samurai, and judging by the reaction from people when I say I haven't seen it (HOW DARE YOU, WHAT KIND OF ART STUDENT ARE YOU) it's a significant work.

[Aumata]

So basically they got their art inspired by a Japanese film. So that means we can stop with the whole this is anime thing right? Because I still fail to see the difference with this and anime. Even with the whole art design, it still seem to me be in the same realm in Dragon Age art style, just that it was revamp.

[Morroian]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Because you are fighting the same Darkspawn you were fighting in Origins except for no reason other than artist thinking it was neat, they look different.  Storywise, this makes not sense.  I am a big stickler on story making sense and continuity so this bothers me...a lot.  There is no justifiable reason that the same darkspawn you were fighting in origins all of a sudden look radically different.

Why does there have to be a strory reason? Accept the meta reason that they changed the art style for whatever reason and move on. Heck I thought Star Trek were stupid for giving an instory reason for the change in Klingons. Its not needed.

crimzontearz wrote...

but I can tell they are darkspan because I spent some 250 hours on dragon age and I come to the forums all the time and whatnot and because I was TOLD that was darkspawn. But if someone just showed me a picture of the Darkspawn from DAO and one from DA2 and asked me if they were the same thing without me knowing much about it I'd have said NO

I'd have said yes. They are clearly darkspawn.

[Lumikki]

aznsoisauce wrote...

But I have to ask...WHERE are all you people getting this Eastern/Asian/Japanese influence in design coming from? It keeps getting mentioned but no examples are provided. It's becoming offensive.

If you would have played eastern videogames or mmorpgs or watch they anime, you would notice that they animation has this exaggerated style. Western style is more earth like, there isn't so much exaggeration unless it's superhero stuff.

If you don't know what we talk, Google it, you will find alot of information about it. Why you feel it's offensive? It's about style differences, what there is to be offensive about it?

About anime style..

Many commentators refer to anime as an art form.  As a visual medium, it can emphasize visual styles. The styles can vary from artist to artist or from studio to studio. Some titles make extensive use of common stylization: FLCL, for example, has a reputation for wild, exaggerated stylization. Other titles use different methods: Only Yesterday or Jin-Roh take much more realistic approaches, featuring few stylistic exaggerations; Pokémon  uses drawings which specifically do not distinguish the nationality of characters.

While different titles and different artists have their own artistic styles, many stylistic elements have become so common that people[who?] describe them as definitive of anime in general. However, this does not mean that all modern anime share one strict, common art-style. Many anime have a very different art style from what would commonly be called "anime style", yet fans still use the word "anime" to refer to these titles. Generally, the most common form of anime drawings include "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs... and dramatically shaped speech bubbles, speed lines and onomatopoeic, exclamatory typography."

Anime also tends to borrow many elements from manga, including text in the background and panel layouts. For example, an opening may employ manga panels to tell the story, or to dramatize a point for humorous effect. See for example the anime Kare Kano.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 octobre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

I guess Origins and Awakening was "anime" too.

[Lumikki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I guess Origins and Awakening was "anime" too.

Little bit yes, but DA2 seem to push it even beyond of them. I think it's caused the increase speed of animation and action.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Morroian wrote...
Why does there have to be a strory reason? Accept the meta reason that they changed the art style for whatever reason and move on. Heck I thought Star Trek were stupid for giving an instory reason for the change in Klingons. Its not needed.

While I do think significant anatomical changes (like the qunari horns) require at least some sort of lore explanation, making little things in the game BETTER shouldn't require lore justifications.

For example, there's the new Duke Nukem coming out.  What if the devs for that game refused to update the graphics for "lore" reasons?  Do devs have to give lore reasons every time a sequel improves upon the engine of the previous game?  When omnigel disappeared from Mass Effect?  Does every Zelda have to be eight-bit and blocky to be lore compatible?  Dear me, it's a GAME.

[aznsoisauce]

Lumikki wrote...
*SNIP*

The point. You've missed it. The "Eastern/Asian/Japanese influence in design" claims sound baseless when no examples for comparison are provided. However, it has been brought to my attention at apparently a dev has admitted that Eastern/Asian styles has been a major influence.

And it isn't that I don't know what "anime style" is. It's offensive since it is being referred to as a negative aspect. 

[Lumikki]

aznsoisauce wrote...

And it isn't that I don't know what "anime style" is. It's offensive since it is being referred to as a negative aspect. 

Just because something is referred as negative to something, doens't make it offensive. Example I love anime, I actually collect it. Still I'm agaist that style of in DA serie, the question is why?

Answer is that not everyting fits to every theme. Example if I love classic music like Mozart, that doesn't mean Mozarts music fits in every movie made. It's about does the style fits the theme or lore of DA serie as what we know. It's not about been offensive, it's about defending the style of DA series world.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:30 .

[nightcobra]

 as for the japanese film they were inspired on, i believe they said it was yojimbo (the original fistful of dollars)

[Anarya]

I think you can clearly see the East Asian influences just by looking at the stuff we've seen, even without the art director citing Kurosawa as an inspiration. But I don't see it coming from anime, personally. Perhaps if anime is all you know of that region of the world or something.

Edit: and the film cited was Throne of Blood, by the way.

Modifié par Anarya, 25 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[nightcobra]

Anarya wrote...

I think you can clearly see the East Asian influences just by looking at the stuff we've seen, even without the art director citing Kurosawa as an inspiration. But I don't see it coming from anime, personally. Perhaps if anime is all you know of that region of the world or something.

Edit: and the film cited was Throne of Blood, by the way.

i don't see it as anime influenced either but rather using elements from both east and west to create their own design.

[aznsoisauce]

Lumikki wrote...
Just because something is referred as negative to something, doens't make it offensive. Example I love anime, I actually collect it. Still I'm agaist that style of in DA serie, the question is why?

Answer is that not everyting fits to every theme. Example if I love classic music like Mozart, that doesn't mean Mozarts music fits in every movie made. It's about does the style fits the theme or lore of DA serie as what we know. It's not about been offensive, it's about defending the style of DA series world.

This is a better post.

But I was more referring to posts saying things like "utterly cliche and stylized anime crap you would see from some mainstream japanese game developers", not what you were saying specifically.

Anarya wrote...

I think you can clearly see the East Asian influences just by looking at the stuff we've seen, even without the art director citing Kurosawa as an inspiration. But I don't see it coming from anime, personally. Perhaps if anime is all you know of that region of the world or something.

Agreed.

[Jestina]

DA2=What you get when Mass Effect crashes into a badly done JRPG.

[Oloos]

I'd say the main problem with the "new" darkspawns is that they look too "clean" and not scary at all... I mean... They are supposed to be some kind of sick and scary pseudo-zombies right ? But they look so clean now...



It's... Weird...

[nightcobra]

Oloos wrote...

I'd say the main problem with the "new" darkspawns is that they look too "clean" and not scary at all... I mean... They are supposed to be some kind of sick and scary pseudo-zombies right ? But they look so clean now...

It's... Weird...

look at it this way, they could be missing textures such as wounds or jagged teeth or blood/taint or maybe some textures will be replaced. it's still a long way until the game is out for sale so i can imagine the retexturing of a few enemy models to be done until then.

[Rykoth]

Plus, why would all darkspawn look the same? That makes no sense either - so the new look could, as far as -player interpretation goes- just be different people mutated.

[Arkynomicon]

Oloos wrote...

I'd say the main problem with the "new" darkspawns is that they look too "clean" and not scary at all... I mean... They are supposed to be some kind of sick and scary pseudo-zombies right ? But they look so clean now...

It's... Weird...

I disagree. Now they look sickly pale, have eyes running with some dark fluid and a more primal look to their faces.

[elearon1]

Things look different and I'm angry because different is bad! Like that time I wanted lasagna and lasagna never *used* to have spinach in it - but this time it did - and totally ruined my dinner. Darkspawn are just like that - spinach in lasagna.