339 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Personally I thought Origins had a nice look, it just needed to be beefed up on the technical side of things to make the art stand out more. I'm just wondering if DA3 or every DA game in the future gets totally revamped again art style wise? Where does it stop?

When we want it to stop?

Seriously, folks. Are you able to tell they're darkspawn? Yes, you are. Isn't everything beyond that just a lot of hand-wringing? There is no in-game explanation for why the darkspawn look different. The visual style of the game has changed. Period, the end.

Well...actually....I didn't know they were darkspawn at first.....

BUT I actually like the way they look, they've definitely grown on me, and playing DA:O again, the darkspawn don't look as interesting as they do in DA2.

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Personally I thought Origins had a nice look, it just needed to be beefed up on the technical side of things to make the art stand out more. I'm just wondering if DA3 or every DA game in the future gets totally revamped again art style wise? Where does it stop?

When we want it to stop?

Seriously, folks. Are you able to tell they're darkspawn? Yes, you are. Isn't everything beyond that just a lot of hand-wringing? There is no in-game explanation for why the darkspawn look different. The visual style of the game has changed. Period, the end.

Still doesn't make sense.  I would have saved the new artistic style on the new enemies rather than changing something that was already established, especially since you all said the darkspawn weren't even going to be prominent in this game.

But whatever, I am still buying it.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:36 .

[ChickenDownUnder]

To me the new darkspawn look unfinished because of how all those sharp angles are handled. In 3D modeling, such angles are a big no-no, so it looks incomplete, like it needs a good 1000 more polygons. If Bioware really wants to keep the sharp angle look, then I'd like to suggest giving the darkspawn some kind of equally angled helmet, as well as giving the sharper points a blade-like appearance. So that it looks more like the armor is not just for protection, but also to maim anyone in contact with it. The coif thing they're currently wearing is too smooth compared to the rest of the armor, so if it were me I'd get rid of it.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:39 .

[Daerog]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

To me the new darkspawn look unfinished because of how all those sharp angles are handled. In 3D modeling, such angles are a big no-no, so it looks incomplete, like it needs a good 1000 more polygons. If Bioware really wants to keep the sharp angle look, then I'd like to suggest giving the darkspawn some kind of equally angled helmet, as well as giving the sharper points a blade-like appearance. So that it looks more like the armor is not just for protection, but also to maim anyone in contact with it. The coif thing they're currently wearing is too smooth compared to the rest of the armor, so if it were me I'd get rid of it.

The pointy armor does look like it was just slapped on, which is perfect for darkspawn I would think. The coif does ruin it a bit though, with it being neat and smooth. It should be a little more messed up, maybe with a hole here or there. Why waste good armor on fodder when the Alpha's armor needs more attention? Stupid ghoul!

Again I will like to state my opinion that I like both of the darkspawn (the armor of the hurlocks in Origins and the body/skin/features of these new hurlocks as they fit more with the genlocks and ogres than the deep fried hurlocks in Origins), but my biggest gripe is the uniformity of all the hurlock armors. They are not a professional army under some lord, they are a horde of monsters (under an archdemon during a Blight), aren't they supposed to be a little more... motley? I understand the limitations and whatnot, but it would be nice if the darkspawn had more armor options like the elf and human npcs. Or even have some hurlocks take armor off humans they killed.

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Gaider, it is not a matter of not liking the change (which I don't) but imagine how it would be in ME2 if everyone was talking about the Geth like they were in the last game and then when you started Tali's mission you end up facing somethings that looked like they were from transformers.  The beginning of DA2 is even supposed to be at the same time as Origins was with them fleeing the blight and for purely artistic reasons, the Darkspawn have changed from orcs to an army of skeletors.  It really makes no sense.  

I don't understand this sentiment. I really don't. Why do changes in art style matter in this way? It's a different game where everything looks different.

Hell, this already happened in Awakening. The Disciplines look nothing like the hurlocks. And that wasn't an art style change. If everything looks different that's one thing to hand wave.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote..

Yeah, my issue with the "new" darkspawn is more a matter of visual consistency more than anything. The new hurlocks and ogres just look too different visually than what we saw in Origins- and you can't chalk this retcon up to some Qunari "Oh, we only saw a couple" type rationale. And you can't give it the Flemeth "Oh, she's super HAWT now because she is a shapeshifter" reasoning. 

But we already had to deal with this in Awakening - the Disciplies look a lot like the chalkspawn and nothing like the regular hurlock. All the seeping wounds are closed, the flesh is pasty white instead of ghoul-like, etc.

Personally, I think the qunari justification and the Flemeth justifications are stupid. It's like the ME2 ammo clip thing. Cosmetic or gameplay changes absolutely should be retcons.

Its fair enough that they wanted to change up stuff, but it bothers me when its just changing stuff for the hell of it because it subjectively looks "cooler" yet visually makes for a more detatched feeling from everything we saw in Origins and has no sort of in game reasoning as to why the darkspawn look totally different.

Why is looking cooler not a good reason?

Personally I thought Origins had a nice look, it just needed to be beefed up on the technical side of things to make the art stand out more. I'm just wondering if DA3 or every DA game in the future gets totally revamped again art style wise? Where does it stop?

I thought the Origin looked sucked. But why does it matter? What if they change in DA3? What if they make everything cell-shaded?

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Gaider, it is not a matter of not liking the change (which I don't) but imagine how it would be in ME2 if everyone was talking about the Geth like they were in the last game and then when you started Tali's mission you end up facing somethings that looked like they were from transformers.  The beginning of DA2 is even supposed to be at the same time as Origins was with them fleeing the blight and for purely artistic reasons, the Darkspawn have changed from orcs to an army of skeletors.  It really makes no sense.  

I don't understand this sentiment. I really don't. Why do changes in art style matter in this way? It's a different game where everything looks different.

Hell, this already happened in Awakening. The Disciplines look nothing like the hurlocks. And that wasn't an art style change. If everything looks different that's one thing to hand wave.

Because you are fighting the same Darkspawn you were fighting in Origins except for no reason other than artist thinking it was neat, they look different.  Storywise, this makes not sense.  I am a big stickler on story making sense and continuity so this bothers me...a lot.  There is no justifiable reason that the same darkspawn you were fighting in origins all of a sudden look radically different.  

Next, I have not played Awakening but I assume the Disciples are a different sect of Darkspawn so it would at least have a story justification.  

[Daerog]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Next, I have not played Awakening but I assume the Disciples are a different sect of Darkspawn so it would at least have a story justification.  

No, they are just hurlocks who were given Grey Warden blood and no longer hear the Call and have individual wills and such. Like the Architect, who was a hurlock and somehow radically changed the way he looked, possibly using blight magic.

Story justification? Well, you could always say that it is a superior or new kind of breed of broodmother who can produce hurlocks who don't look like they are rotting. Really, the hurlocks (usual ones, not the disciples) looked really different compared to the ogres and genlocks, and I wondered why. These new hurlocks fit more with the other darkspawn imo. Shrieks were also pretty wierd to me and I wouldn't mind if they altered them a bit as well to make their features stand out a bit more.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
But we already had to deal with this in Awakening - the Disciplies look a lot like the chalkspawn and nothing like the regular hurlock. All the seeping wounds are closed, the flesh is pasty white instead of ghoul-like, etc.

Well, it makes sense that the Disciples look different as there is a lore justification for them looking different as they're Awakened and a new breed basically. All I'm saying with the new chalkspawn in DA2 is that at a glance they seem too similar to the Disciples in that they're pale faced and wear the coif, yet lore wise, the hurlocks in DA2 that we've seen are just supposed to be run of the mill mindless hurlocks.

In Exile wrote...
Personally, I think the qunari justification and the Flemeth justifications are stupid. It's like the ME2 ammo clip thing. Cosmetic or gameplay changes absolutely should be retcons.

The Flemeth one I can sort of buy into, but the qunari retcon is weak. Even if you ignore the horns, they look like gargoyles or something now. 

I'm just reminded of this Manly Guys Doing Manly Things comic:

In Exile wrote...
Why is looking cooler not a good reason?

Because one person's looking cooler is another person's looking lame. But its all subjective.

In Exile wrote...
I thought the Origin looked sucked. But why does it matter? What if they change in DA3? What if they make everything cell-shaded?

It matters to me because video games are a visual medium in addition to the story, gameplay and everything else. Could Origins have improved visually? Sure! But I thought the visual deficiencies of Origins had more to do with the technology than the art style. Again, its subjective to be sure and all I'd like to see is some consistency and continuity.

Its like with the first game informer cover with Flemeth on it- did anyone immediately go "Oh thats clearly Flemeth!" No, you had most people thinking that was an old Morrigan or everything but Flemeth- fair enough she is a shapeshifter. Or with the horned Qunari. Honestly, if somebody didn't tell me the horned Qunari was a Qunari, I would have thought it to be a new race.

So yeah, if they change things up drastically again in DA3, it hurts any sense of continuity you have in the DA universe. It makes sense if things look different in a different country or something, but not stuff that we saw a hundred times over in Origins.

And I loathe cel-shading with an entirely irrational hatred that burns with the intensity of a thousand suns. If DA3 went cel-shaded, I can say I would not buy it entirely out of principle.

[crimzontearz]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Personally I thought Origins had a nice look, it just needed to be beefed up on the technical side of things to make the art stand out more. I'm just wondering if DA3 or every DA game in the future gets totally revamped again art style wise? Where does it stop?

When we want it to stop?

Seriously, folks. Are you able to tell they're darkspawn? Yes, you are. Isn't everything beyond that just a lot of hand-wringing? There is no in-game explanation for why the darkspawn look different. The visual style of the game has changed. Period, the end.

uh......you know David not to be the devil's advocate here....

but I can tell they are darkspan because I spent some 250 hours on dragon age and I come to the forums all the time and whatnot and because I was TOLD that was darkspawn. But if someone just showed me a picture of the Darkspawn from DAO and one from DA2 and asked me if they were the same thing without me knowing much about it I'd have said NO

[Dave of Canada]

crimzontearz wrote...

uh......you know David not to be the devil's advocate here....

but I can tell they are darkspan because I spent some 250 hours on dragon age and I come to the forums all the time and whatnot and because I was TOLD that was darkspawn. But if someone just showed me a picture of the Darkspawn from DAO and one from DA2 and asked me if they were the same thing without me knowing much about it I'd have said NO

Really? They don't look like Darkspawn?



Look close to Disciples to me.

[crimzontearz]

Dave of Canada wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

uh......you know David not to be the devil's advocate here....

but I can tell they are darkspan because I spent some 250 hours on dragon age and I come to the forums all the time and whatnot and because I was TOLD that was darkspawn. But if someone just showed me a picture of the Darkspawn from DAO and one from DA2 and asked me if they were the same thing without me knowing much about it I'd have said NO

Really? They don't look like Darkspawn?



Look close to Disciples to me.

yes......aaaaaand if I did not play awakening?


there is also the issue of coherence....

anyways the devs made a choice on the artistic direction of DA2, I am not saying it was right or wrong, I am just saying that what David said is debatable

[aznsoisauce]

crimzontearz wrote...
anyways the devs made a choice on the artistic direction of DA2, I am not saying it was right or wrong, I am just saying that what David said is debatable

Nah. The difference between the two designs is not great enough for it to be debatable. It seems more like people making that argument just don't like the new look.

I mean, it's not like they're pulling a Devil May Cry here.

[Aumata]

What is wrong with the hurlocks new look anyway? From my point they look awesome, and really it is nothing more than an art change. I mean it really doesn't seem to me like a drastic art change anyway, more like a revamp of the old, and changed the lore of the qunari for the reason why they have horns. Though the horns make me want to play as one. Oh well, have to wait till the next one then, or an expansion pack/ dlc.

[Icinix]

Wonder how the 'new' darkspawn would look with their noses cut off like the 'old' darkspawn.



I think that would go a long way to bridging this divide.

[soteria]

If we're complaining about the new art style rather than specifically darkspawn now, I'm pretty unsympathetic. As a rule, any intellectual property is going to see some evolution in art style over time. For comics, look at Dilbert, Calvin and Hobbes, or Garfield (compare the original strips to the most recent ones). Video games are no different. Actually, they tend to evolve much more drastically due to better technology: compare the style of Civ 1 to Civ 2 to Civ 5, or the various iterations of Heroes of Might and Magic or Halo or Warcraft. I think it would have been unrealistic to expect DA2 to look just like DA:O, considering they started development on DA:O what, 6+ years ago?

[Icinix]

soteria wrote...

If we're complaining about the new art style rather than specifically darkspawn now, I'm pretty unsympathetic. As a rule, any intellectual property is going to see some evolution in art style over time. For comics, look at Dilbert, Calvin and Hobbes, or Garfield (compare the original strips to the most recent ones). Video games are no different. Actually, they tend to evolve much more drastically due to better technology: compare the style of Civ 1 to Civ 2 to Civ 5, or the various iterations of Heroes of Might and Magic or Halo or Warcraft. I think it would have been unrealistic to expect DA2 to look just like DA:O, considering they started development on DA:O what, 6+ years ago?

We're internet game forumers!

We believe none of our expectations are unrealistic! 

No I kid, I kid.

I love everyone and you make you a valid point.  Evolution marches on, even occasional failures are better than total stagnation. (I don't think this is a total failure either, i don't mind it and the more I see then, the more I like them)

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

aznsoisauce wrote...
Nah. The difference between the two designs is not great enough for it to be debatable. It seems more like people making that argument just don't like the new look.

I mean, it's not like they're pulling a Devil May Cry here.

(I must be the only person who doesn't find him all that different, he's got the same facial structure in both of those pics and we all know his younger incarnations have been more, uh, one-linery punk brat. The black hair is a superficial difference and Capcom wouldn't have signed off on it unless there was a reason. Ninja Theory just has a different costume design aesthetic.)

But I agree with your first point.

Additionally, its not like the artists design in a vacuum, coworkers and codesigners and the intern getting coffee and the secretary all have opinions too. If this is what they went with then it serves their purposes, perhaps better than DAO darkspawn. You can read here about how the ME2 team got feedback from the women of the office in order to achieve Thane's design.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Lumikki]

In Exile wrote...

Why is looking cooler not a good reason?

Because something been cool isn't same as been good. It's about does something fit the theme and style of the game world. Also been "cool" is matter of taste and every people in world have different taste. Meaning if you think something is cool, doesn't mean someone else thinks same.

I have two problem in new DA2 and one is talked here. Change in artist style from what it was in DAO  to more east kind style, like in Japan. When you change art style, you also change the feeling of the game world. While some people likes the change , some thinks it's not going in right direction. In my opinion Bioware is trying too much to catch "cool" factor with they animation, than they art styles doesn't anymore improve the game world impression, it starts to make it feel too much like some superhero game world.

Point is, there is difference between improving and changing style of graphics and animation. Because improving doesn't change the style of game world, while changing style does.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

Pseudocognition wrote...

(I must be the only person who doesn't find him all that different, he's got the same facial structure in both of those pics and we all know his younger incarnations have been more, uh, one-linery punk brat. The black hair is a superficial difference and Capcom wouldn't have signed off on it unless there was a reason. Ninja Theory just has a different costume design aesthetic.)

I wouldn't mind it but they modeled after the project director.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I wouldn't mind it but they modeled after the project director.
[snip]

I was going to bring that up, that rubs me the wrong way as well. I hope he got his hair cut to match Dante for lulz instead of the other way around. You can only get away with stuff like that if you're Hideo Kojima. (He credited himself as "Voice of God" and nobody blinked twice. I want to be him.)

[Icinix]

Dave..your avatar...



...have you done something different to your hair...wait no..I'll get it....

...you shaved?

[aznsoisauce]

Pseudocognition wrote...
(I must be the only person who doesn't find him all that different, he's got the same facial structure in both of those pics and we all know his younger incarnations have been more, uh, one-linery punk brat. The black hair is a superficial difference and Capcom wouldn't have signed off on it unless there was a reason. Ninja Theory just has a different costume design aesthetic.)

But I agree with your first point.

Additionally, its not like the artists design in a vacuum, coworkers and codesigners and the intern getting coffee and the secretary all have opinions too. If this is what they went with then it serves their purposes, perhaps better than DAO darkspawn. You can read here about how the ME2 team got feedback from the women of the office in order to achieve Thane's design.

Ooh~ Nice article

You're comparing the pictures side by side, though. Had it just been the `new' Dante, one may have been expecting the caption to be something like "MR. PILGRIM! I AM RAMONA'S FIRST EVIL EX BOYFRIEND!"

Lumikki wrote...
Because something been cool isn't same as been good. It's about does something fit the theme and style of the game world. Also been "cool" is matter of taste and every people in world have different taste. Meaning if you think something is cool, doesn't mean someone else thinks same.

I have two problem in new DA2 and one is talked here. Change in artist style from what it was in DAO  to more east kind style, like in Japan. When you change art style, you also change the feeling of the game world. While some people likes the change , some thinks it's not going in right direction. In my opinion Bioware is trying too much to catch "cool" factor with they animation, than they art styles doesn't anymore improve the game world impression, it starts to make it feel too much like some superhero game world.

Point is, there is difference between improving and changing style of graphics and animation. Because improving doesn't change the style of game world, while changing style does.

"What looks cool" is debatable - or at least moreso than the darkspawn argument.

But I have to ask...WHERE are all you people getting this Eastern/Asian/Japanese influence in design coming from? It keeps getting mentioned but no examples are provided. It's becoming offensive.

Edit:

Pseudocognition wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I wouldn't mind it but they modeled after the project director.
[snip]

I was going to bring that up, that rubs me the wrong way as well. I hope he got his hair cut to match Dante for lulz instead of the other way around. You can only get away with stuff like that if you're Hideo Kojima. (He credited himself as "Voice of God" and nobody blinked twice. I want to be him.)

The thing with Kojima is that no one takes what he says seriously. He could conduct an entire press conference and say nothing but "defecation" over and over again, and people (including myself) would still be all "My money -- take it all!" for his next MGS installment.

Modifié par aznsoisauce, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Saraphial]

Personally, the visual changes to the darspawn don't bug me that much, what I'm more interested in is 1.how heavy plate armor will look and 2. how the cities will look. I rather liked how the armor looked in DAO, albeit there wasn't much variety except for the coloring, so I'm hoping they keep it somewhat close to what it looked like before (maybe just a bit snazzier? lol) and as for the cities, it was one of the things I was less impressed with in DAO, well mainly just Denerim, the architecture for Orzammar was nice. Again, it just needs some polishing. I'm excited to see what it will turn out like.