222 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

DWSmiley - Interesting that you speak of evil as though it is something objective. It is not. It is a value we place on things. It is not a quality which spreads, grows, erodes or degrades any more than happiness or morality is.



Avernus seems driven by a consuming desire to explore, experiment, and understand the Warden's taint - with an eye to harnessing it. A noble and fascinating goal. His flaw is that he is willing to sacrifice his fellows as test subjects. Could years locked away have given him time to reflect and regret? Perhaps. Would he still consider his experiments worth the price of life once Soldier's Peak was made safe again, and he was no longer under seige by demons? Again, perhaps.



But what right does your warden claim to be judge, jury and executioner? Avernus is still a fellow Grey Warden, after all, and many years your senior.

[errant_knight]

Ferretinabun wrote...

DWSmiley - Interesting that you speak of evil as though it is something objective. It is not. It is a value we place on things. It is not a quality which spreads, grows, erodes or degrades any more than happiness or morality is.

Avernus seems driven by a consuming desire to explore, experiment, and understand the Warden's taint - with an eye to harnessing it. A noble and fascinating goal. His flaw is that he is willing to sacrifice his fellows as test subjects. Could years locked away have given him time to reflect and regret? Perhaps. Would he still consider his experiments worth the price of life once Soldier's Peak was made safe again, and he was no longer under seige by demons? Again, perhaps.

But what right does your warden claim to be judge, jury and executioner? Avernus is still a fellow Grey Warden, after all, and many years your senior.

The same right that you have to judge Howe and Loghain, which is intrinsic to this gaming world. And my warden fully agrees with Alistair. Some things just aren't forgivable.

[Xilizhra]

Howe dies in battle with you, not via execution. As for Loghain, the Landsmeet decides that you're allowed to decide his fate if you win the duel. Of course, in Avernus' case, he outright says that he'll accept whatever justice he sees fit.



Then again, I fervently disagree with your last statement. All things are forgivable, if the desire to repent is sincere.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

The same right that you have to judge Howe and Loghain, which is intrinsic to this gaming world. And my warden fully agrees with Alistair. Some things just aren't forgivable.

??  He says it wasn't necessary, not that it's not forgivable.  And he never advocates killing Avernus or objects if you spare him.

[Ferretinabun]

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

[Addai]

DWSmiley wrote...

Lives may be sacrificed to achieve victory but we don’t expect military leaders to torture their own soldiers or anybody else.  Nor was Avernus making a military decision.  There is no war between humans and demons.  A demonic army is inconceivable as it’s just not their nature.  The demons at Soldiers Peak would have caused grief if they escaped but they were not an existential threat.  More serious is the threat of an ethos where people are treated as raw resources for the elite - perhaps not for those confident of membership in the elite but even for them, that confidence can be misplaced.

 Dwarves do face an existential threat and volunteer golems were a godsend - or stonesend.  But then they came for the casteless, then criminals, then political rivals - the slippery slope into a darkness no one wants to live in.

It's really a value judgment and gets very grey at the edges.  Avernus was not torturing people for no purpose, and there are times when a military leader might decide that certain amounts of loss or suffering is acceptable to achieve victory.  The threat Avernus speaks of isn't just the demons but the darkspawn threat.

Personally I usually leave him alive since it's in the distant past, he seems repentant (if you pass the Persuade), and he actually has made advances in researching the taint.  Only if I have a character who is violently opposed to blood magic in itself would I kill Avernus for moralism's sake.  And frankly some of the Chantry and Circle anti-maleficar righteous crusader types seem like the ones who are very liberal with power.  You could call addicting people to lyrium or putting a demon in them a form of torture, for instance.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Xilizhra]

I find that whether it's worth the cost is irrelevant; what's past is past and nothing can bring back Avernus' victims. What's important is what he can do now with the knowledge already collected, and I feel that that potential is worth keeping him alive for.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The same right that you have to judge Howe and Loghain, which is intrinsic to this gaming world. And my warden fully agrees with Alistair. Some things just aren't forgivable.

??  He says it wasn't necessary, not that it's not forgivable.  And he never advocates killing Avernus or objects if you spare him.

Yes, he says necessary there. I was speaking to his attitude about such things, which is clearly that there are things for which there can be no redemption great enough. You may disagree, but I'd say his attitude toward Loghain makes that pretty clear. And as I recall, you get approval for killing Avernus, too, although I can't remember if it's a statement or points.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:55 .

[errant_knight]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The same right that you have to judge Howe and Loghain, which is intrinsic to this gaming world. And my warden fully agrees with Alistair. Some things just aren't forgivable.

??  He says it wasn't necessary, not that it's not forgivable.  And he never advocates killing Avernus or objects if you spare him.

Yes, he says necessary there. I was speaking to his attitude about such things, which is clearly that there are things for which there can be no redemption great enough. You may disagree, but I'd say his attitude toward Loghain makes that pretty clear. And as I recall, you get approval for killing Avernus, although I can't remember if it's a statement or points.

No, there's no approval or disapproval.  Regardless of outcome Alistair says the same thing at the end of WK, "I guess we're done here... etc."  And I do think it's quite a stretch to say he takes the same attitude toward anyone else that he takes towards Loghain, and a further stretch to extrapolate to whom he might apply such a standard.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:57 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The same right that you have to judge Howe and Loghain, which is intrinsic to this gaming world. And my warden fully agrees with Alistair. Some things just aren't forgivable.

??  He says it wasn't necessary, not that it's not forgivable.  And he never advocates killing Avernus or objects if you spare him.

Yes, he says necessary there. I was speaking to his attitude about such things, which is clearly that there are things for which there can be no redemption great enough. You may disagree, but I'd say his attitude toward Loghain makes that pretty clear. And as I recall, you get approval for killing Avernus, although I can't remember if it's a statement or points.

No, there's no approval or disapproval.  Regardless of outcome Alistair says the same thing at the end of WK, "I guess we're done here... etc."  And I do think it's quite a stretch to say he takes the same attitude toward anyone else that he takes towards Loghain, and a further stretch to extrapolate to whom he might apply such a standard.

*shrugs* Well, it may be a stretch, but it's my stretch. I think Alistair has very strong feelings about blood magic. Not as strong as those about Loghain, true, but close.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

.....

Have you actually seen what cancer does to a person?  Let alone to millions of people?  That is a lot of suffering to stack up on the one side of your "useless hypothetical" scale.

[Ferretinabun]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find that whether it's worth the cost is irrelevant; what's past is past and nothing can bring back Avernus' victims. What's important is what he can do now with the knowledge already collected, and I feel that that potential is worth keeping him alive for.

Well said.

[Ferretinabun]

errant_knight wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

I might. If you focus on those you'd save rather than those you'd kill, it would seem positively immoral not to.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

.....

Have you actually seen what cancer does to a person?  Let alone to millions of people?  That is a lot of suffering to stack up on the one side of your "useless hypothetical" scale.

*Edited to remove personal information and swearing*

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Xilizhra]

Interesting... I'm sorry for your loss.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

.....

Have you actually seen what cancer does to a person?  Let alone to millions of people?  That is a lot of suffering to stack up on the one side of your "useless hypothetical" scale.

****** the hell off! How dare you! My mother died of cancer, and she died at home and we were with her through all the surgeries, remissions, and her slow eventual death in a hospital bed in the living room. You can **** right off. I'm done here. Shove it up your ass, Addai

Hey, whoa.  You're the one who said that you wouldn't kill kittens rather than cure it.  Don't bring it up if it's such a personally painful subject to you.

But yeah.  See ya.

[Xilizhra]

Admittedly, I think that blendering all kittens is a bit of a waste; with our medical science the way it is, I don't think a true cure for cancer is all that far off.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Let me ask - if Avernus' experiments had led to discovering an amazing secret about the Taint/Warden blood which could be harness and used effectively against the darkspawn, nullifying the threat of them and future Blights and saving thousands of lives, would you have considered them worth the cost?

No. Some things are just wrong. If you could cure cancer by putting kittens in a blender, would you do it?

.....

Have you actually seen what cancer does to a person?  Let alone to millions of people?  That is a lot of suffering to stack up on the one side of your "useless hypothetical" scale.

****** the hell off! How dare you! My mother died of cancer, and she died at home and we were with her through all the surgeries, remissions, and her slow eventual death in a hospital bed in the living room. You can **** right off. I'm done here. Shove it up your ass, Addai

Hey, whoa.  You're the one who said that you wouldn't kill kittens rather than cure it.  Don't bring it up if it's such a personally painful subject to you.

But yeah.  See ya.

I brought it up because I was linking something of immense undeniable value with something horrific. It's applicable, because that's just how much I believe that some things are immutably wrong.

Nice to see that you really get that you might have been out of line, by the way. 
But yeah. See ya.

[frostajulie]

I would quite happily blender kittens to cure cancer. As long as it really cured cancer because blendering kitens is a really horrific idea, but cancer is worse. I think finding a cure for the taint is worth the dsacrifices made to get there and thatys why I mostly leave Avernus to his research but he never did get back to me on what he learned Wish they'd do a DLC for that.

Modifié par frostajulie, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I brought it up because I was linking something of immense undeniable value with something horrific. It's applicable, because that's just how much I believe that some things are immutably wrong.

Nice to see that you really get that you might have been out of line, by the way. 
But yeah. See ya.

And others might consider it offensive that you basically said their/ their loved one's suffering is less important than the lives of animals.  Which is a moral stand not everyone is willing to make.

Now, can we get back to talking about the silly video game.

[Ferretinabun]

...oookaaay. Glad I asked that one...