222 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Unnecessary inflammatory and stupid on my part comments removed.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:50 .

[DWSmiley]

Addai67 wrote...

I think the question lies in motive.  Avernus thinks he is doing something worthwhile to help humanity in the long run, as with other Wardens who burn villages etc.

I think he's convinced himself of that but was seduced by the intellectual challenge and the chance for another triumph of lore.  And worthwhile means both worthy and worth the cost.  Warden Me believes torture never is.

[Ferretinabun]

Ryzaki wrote...

So rape is morally grey? So child abuse is morally grey? Torture is morally grey?

Actually yes. No action has an objective quality of being 'right' or 'wrong', 'good' or 'evil'. It's just that with these examples everyone (well, at least the VAST majority of people) happen to agree that they are bad. It's just opinion - even a concensus opinion.

An easier way to see it is to pick a more controversial example. Is capital punishment right or wrong? Objectively, it is neither. People just have opinions on it.

[Addai]

DWSmiley wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think the question lies in motive.  Avernus thinks he is doing something worthwhile to help humanity in the long run, as with other Wardens who burn villages etc.

I think he's convinced himself of that but was seduced by the intellectual challenge and the chance for another triumph of lore.  And worthwhile means both worthy and worth the cost.  Warden Me believes torture never is.

Yes that's true, he's pretty proud of himself.  Then again if he didn't have that ambition and drive, he would not have held up as long as he did and the demons probably would have gotten out.

So how many of you actually drink his cocktail?  Most of my Wardens do, and I do use the powers.  Don't like it on my rogue because of lower con, but on my dwarf warrior I used it a lot and occasionally for my blood mage.  I figure the knowledge is already there, the torture is in the past, in the meantime it's a waste not to use it.

[Ryzaki]

Unnecessary inflammatory and stupid comments on my part removed.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Ferretinabun]

Good question Addai. Surely someone who condemns Avernus and still drinks his potion is being a hypocrit?

[Xilizhra]

I always drink his cocktail. In fact, my Warden drinks anything blood-related put in front of her (Joining blood, Avernus' blood, Andraste-the-magic-dragon's blood,,,).

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

I always drink his cocktail. In fact, my Warden drinks anything blood-related put in front of her (Joining blood, Avernus' blood, Andraste-the-magic-dragon's blood,,,).

Yeah...I could never drink the dragon's blood. Who knows what else crazy Korgin(sp?) put in it.

[Ferretinabun]

Ryzaki wrote...

What use does rape, child abuse and torture serve that something else cannot that isn't one of vindictive pleasure? 

CP is used as a way to permanetly take certain criminals out of society. I can be used for revenge and pettines and yes innocents can be falsely accused but at its base it serves as a punishement for a crime. (Usually a crime that resulted in the death of another person).

Being 'useful' doesn't mean an act has an objective moral property.

[Sarah1281]

Torture is morally grey?

It can be, actually. The best example, of course, being if you know that the person you have in custody planted a bomb that will go off within a few hours but you don't know where it is. If he won't talk then the question of whether or not to try to torture the information out of him so as to save lives is certainly morally grey. You may decide that it's not worth it or that he'll lie to you but others may decide to take that chance as while you don't know if you'll get the time-sensitive information this way, you KNOW you won't get it in time without it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
What use does rape, child abuse and torture serve that something else cannot that isn't one of vindictive pleasure? 

You are going with the assumption that vindictive pleasure is bad or evil. That's not a universal objective knowledge, that is a belief.

One most people happen to share. It still doesn't make it "factually evil".

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
What use does rape, child abuse and torture serve that something else cannot that isn't one of vindictive pleasure? 

You are going with the assumption that vindictive pleasure is bad or evil. That's not a universal objective knowledge, that is a belief.

One most people happen to share. It still doesn't make it "factually evil".

Ah. I guess not. Sorry. I shouldn't force my views on other people.

Ferretinabun wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What use does rape, child abuse and torture serve that something else cannot that isn't one of vindictive pleasure? 

CP is
used as a way to permanetly take certain criminals out of society. I
can be used for revenge and pettines and yes innocents can be falsely
accused but at its base it serves as a punishement for a crime. (Usually
a crime that resulted in the death of another person).

Being 'useful' doesn't mean an act has an objective moral property.

True. I guess there is no such thing as evil or good then. Just things people want to do.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Torture is morally grey?

It can be, actually. The best example, of course, being if you know that the person you have in custody planted a bomb that will go off within a few hours but you don't know where it is. If he won't talk then the question of whether or not to try to torture the information out of him so as to save lives is certainly morally grey. You may decide that it's not worth it or that he'll lie to you but others may decide to take that chance as while you don't know if you'll get the time-sensitive information this way, you KNOW you won't get it in time without it.

Unless of course they lie. In which case you know...you have nothing. You probably have no way to verify if they're telling the truth, and what you might think is a lie might actually be the truth and vice versa.

And if it's timed there's a even larger marginal of error.

It's information that can be falsified. So you may be torturing someone who A. Doesn't know jack squat B. Whose information you can't necessary trust.

That said the moral arguement is moot because everyone's morals aren't my own. At least I don't have to consider myself "corrupt" for thinking some of the things I think anymore.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .

[Ferretinabun]

Lol, how did I get into a complex philosophical debate on moral objectivity when I only came on to find out what people think about off-ing the Architect...?

[DWSmiley]

Xilizhra wrote...

I always drink his cocktail. In fact, my Warden drinks anything blood-related put in front of her (Joining blood, Avernus' blood, Andraste-the-magic-dragon's blood,,,).

LOL.  This thread needed a bit of comic relief, thanks!

Yeah, my wardens always drink his cocktail.  It's there and to not drink it rectifies nothing.

[Ryzaki]

That said in that case I wouldn't sacrifice anyone for cancer even if someone I knew had it because it's a part of life. If someone's meant to die they're meant to die.

Of course in a video game I would of course sacrifice the many for the few. It's nice to be a hero.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
True. I guess there is no such thing as evil or good then. Just things people want to do.

And since humans are political animals and that living in groups and societies is axiomatic, rules and codes of conduct must be created and applied to mantain such an existence. And that's the root of "good" and "evil". They are based on practical concerns and then attributed with magical / spiritual properties. Imo, they are instrumental and not intrinsic.

That's why I don't like using those words (because I have tons of other more objective words I can use to describe acts). They take a life of their own and they needlessly complicate things imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:51 .

[Xilizhra]

Wait, what? Someone having cancer doesn't mean they're intrinsically destined to die.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, what? Someone having cancer doesn't mean they're intrinsically destined to die.

I know that I'm being deliberately obtuse.

(My little cousin had cancer in her eye and lost it as a result).

[DWSmiley]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Torture is morally grey?

It can be, actually. The best example, of course, being if you know that the person you have in custody planted a bomb that will go off within a few hours but you don't know where it is. If he won't talk then the question of whether or not to try to torture the information out of him so as to save lives is certainly morally grey. You may decide that it's not worth it or that he'll lie to you but others may decide to take that chance as while you don't know if you'll get the time-sensitive information this way, you KNOW you won't get it in time without it.

That doesn't make it moral; it makes it a necessary evil.  The only way I'd place a smidgen of trust in someone to make that decision is if they accepted severe repercussions on themselves as a consequence - clear acknowledgement of both the evilness and their conviction of necessity.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
True. I guess there is no such thing as evil or good then. Just things people want to do.

And since humans are political animals and that living in groups and societies is axiomatic, rules and codes of conduct must be created and applied to mantain such an existence. And that's the root of "good" and "evil". They are based on practical concerns and then attributed with magical / spiritual properties. Imo, they are instrumental and not intrinsic.

That's why I don't like using those words (because I have tons of other more objective words I can use to describe acts). They take a life of their own and they needlessly complicate things imo.

Eh. I'm an anarchist at heart to tell the truth. The survival of the fittest and all that. If you can't protect your things you deserve to lose them and all that nice flowery heartwarming stuff.

[Xilizhra]

So... you're chaotic evil?

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

So... you're chaotic evil?

No such thing as evil.

Though...I had to resist from beating that kid and taking his nice laptop. Silly bastard sleeping in the couch with it in his lap. ...The chaiir was right there...all it would've taken would've been a nice solid hit.

I should've done it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh. I'm an anarchist at heart to tell the truth. The survival of the fittest and all that. If you can't protect your things you deserve to lose them and all that nice flowery heartwarming stuff.

And you are entitled to such beliefs. I happen to disagree with them, but I don't have to conjure up a moral high ground to do so.  I will disagree on it from a practical / rational view point.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And you are entitled to such beliefs. I happen to disagree with them, but I don't have to conjure up a moral high ground to do so.  I will disagree on it from a practical / rational view point.

True. Practically though I don't see the point in not letting Avernus continue his experiments. The people he already killed are dead and no one's going to miss a few peasants. (Particulary elves or dwarves...) I can only see it becoming a problem if he kills some nobility.

This way you gain some benefit to the whole Warden order. And hopefully in the future you'll no longer have to worry about the taint killing Wardens (and if it goes really well) their might be an opporunity for human ghouls and the like to be treated in the early stages of infection.

Though...his experiments...other than that blood does it give any other advantage later? Or even in Awakening? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:03 .