531 réponses à ce sujet

[Christmas Ape]

To be fair, and to counterpoint my feelings about tortured souls, I think Thane's romance suffers subconsciously because we all know it's actually pretty easy to come back from the Collector Base. Remember; this is supposed to be a suicide mission. It's not about the dead spouse, it's about the fact they're both still alive and taking that fact on an hour by hour basis.

In fact, on reflection, the fact they're staring down the Omega-4 Relay and it still scares him so much to feel is yet more poignant than the fact he's sick and it scares him so much to feel. One act threatens to break the resolve he's spent so much time forging.



We know they could have a year. They can't even be sure they'll survive the day.

[Collider]

IMO they should have expanded on Miranda's past. I can understand why people may not think her past to be that sympathetic or on nearly on the same level as Jack's because her childhood is basically kept vague. Not to mention that the game basically says that Miranda could have whatever she wanted and she was rich. They should have at least gotten rid of the former. Instead of Miranda having whatever she wanted, Miranda only had whatever her father wanted. She wasn't allowed to have fun or do what she wanted, only what her father wanted - which meant being a robot slave in order to become the next one up for his dynasty. Her father was extremely strict and beat her for the littlest of mistakes.



In addition, Miranda talks about not being able to take credit for her achievements, only her mistakes. I can understand why her past and her genetic engineering stuff would warrant such a thought, the only problem is that it has no basis on what she is doing now. Miranda is highly praised by Cerberus as well as TIM. If you go around the Normandy people are saying that if Miranda is on the job, the Collectors are going down for sure. So in context of that, players are going to think that Miranda is complaining or whatever about something that doesn't even apply anymore.



How to fix that? Make Cerberus personnel hate Miranda. Not because she does a bad job, but because she does a good one. Make them resent her and resent her genetic engineering. Make them think that the only reason why she's been so successful in Cerberus is because of her genetics, instead of having natural talent. There you go.



Something like that will make people feel far more sympathetic.

[Nightwriter]

Actually what you described in your first paragraph is pretty much the impression I got, Collider. She was rich, but I always thought she was a slave to her father's schedule and demands.

I actually would like for more Cerberus personnel to hate Miranda, lol. I also wanted to see more evidence of Miranda's intelligence since she said she was intelligent and more of Miranda's mistakes since she said she made mistakes. I also hate how Miranda has to tell you everything about her past, which is I think her biggest disadvantage. "I was a perfect prize horse and it tortured me" is just not something that can be told to someone effectively. It must be shown.

[Getorex]

CalJones wrote...

It even exists to a certain extent with Jaheira in BGII. At least there were no kids involved in that.

I'm just not keen on trying to replace someone's dead spouse. And in Thane's case, he's going to die soon anyway, so it seems a bit selfish, really.

Just get your sexual ya-yas with him (and give him his) for a time until he croaks and then move on to the next hot bod that strikes your fancy. Just because he's croaking doesn't mean he doesn't want his knob polished. HE'S A GUY AND GUYS ALWAYS WANT THEIR KNOBS POLISHED. Keep it simple and accept guyness.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...
Actually what you described in your first paragraph is pretty much the impression I got, Collider. She was rich, but I always thought she was a slave to her father's schedule and demands.

But the game doesn't do a good enough job of relaying that, if it's true. Especially when the game says that she could have whatever she wanted. Shouldn't have been like that at all.

I actually would like for more Cerberus personnel to hate Miranda, lol. I also wanted to see more evidence of Miranda's intelligence since she said she was intelligent and more of Miranda's mistakes since she said she made mistakes. I also hate how Miranda has to tell you everything about her past, which is I think her biggest disadvantage. "I was a perfect prize horse and it tortured me" is just not something that can be told to someone effectively. It must be shown.

Agreed.

[Getorex]

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually what you described in your first paragraph is pretty much the impression I got, Collider. She was rich, but I always thought she was a slave to her father's schedule and demands.

I actually would like for more Cerberus personnel to hate Miranda, lol. I also wanted to see more evidence of Miranda's intelligence since she said she was intelligent and more of Miranda's mistakes since she said she made mistakes. I also hate how Miranda has to tell you everything about her past, which is I think her biggest disadvantage. "I was a perfect prize horse and it tortured me" is just not something that can be told to someone effectively. It must be shown.

Shown in a relatively short cartoon/game? How so? They are trying to compress lots of time and experience into a short period as part of a side issue to give a little flesh to the story's bones without turning the game into a variant of the Sims (yish!).

[Collider]

Shown in a relatively short cartoon/game? How so? They are trying to compress lots of time and experience into a short period as part of a side issue to give a little flesh to the story's bones without turning the game into a variant of the Sims (yish!).

They did it with Jack. They showed that she had a troublesome past and it was believable (though Jack seemed too normal at times).



The difference between Jack and Miranda in terms of potential for sympathy is partly this:



Miranda speaks of a past that is largely no longer applicable for her personally. She's no longer under the control of her father. She's highly prized and appreciated by Cerberus, everyone from Cerberus pretty much loves her (even Jacob had a thing with her). Miranda is a Cerberus loyalist and likes Cerberus and likes working with Cerberus. She's got what she wants already in that respect.



When you first meet Jack she's in prison. A horrible, horrible prison where the prisoners are treated like trash and beaten. The player later finds out that she was raped here.



Instant sympathy. If she complains, it's about something much more current. After you rescue her from Purgatory, she's recruited into the organization that TORTURED her. That's a pretty dismal situation.



In addition you can see that her tortured childhood (literally) still has an effect on her. One obvious example are the "bugs" she says she has in her mind. She's psychologically unstable and has psychological problems.

[HHS_spartan]

I dont like tali. I dont understand the obsession with her. She never really has anything interesting to add and she just goes on and on about things that should really be of least concern on a mission to save the galaxy.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

The Human characters since they're put on every available surface of merchandise despite the fact most people don't like them.

[Nightwriter]

Getorex wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually what you described in your first paragraph is pretty much the impression I got, Collider. She was rich, but I always thought she was a slave to her father's schedule and demands.

I actually would like for more Cerberus personnel to hate Miranda, lol. I also wanted to see more evidence of Miranda's intelligence since she said she was intelligent and more of Miranda's mistakes since she said she made mistakes. I also hate how Miranda has to tell you everything about her past, which is I think her biggest disadvantage. "I was a perfect prize horse and it tortured me" is just not something that can be told to someone effectively. It must be shown.

Shown in a relatively short cartoon/game? How so? They are trying to compress lots of time and experience into a short period as part of a side issue to give a little flesh to the story's bones without turning the game into a variant of the Sims (yish!).

Show her father. Nothing more, nothing less.

If they do not want to reveal her father's identity yet, just give us his voice.

A harsh, sharp Udina-like voice breaking into Miranda's comm and making her freeze in place.

"Miranda! What - are - you - thinking? Did you think you could just RUN AWAY from me?! I OWN you! You are mine! My property! You do not run from me, you do not steal what is mine! You cannot survive without me, all you can do is find another version of me and become that man's property, that man's tool! And even now, you make mistakes! You are a nothing trying to prevent your sister from being a something. I should have thrown you out with the others before you left the test tube."

I'd pretty much love her for life, personally, but then, I easily sympathize with characters. I just want to give Jack huggles, even though I know I shall likely be shot. Or stabbed. Or biotic slammed.

[Raokin]

I've always had trouble being interested in the human characters as well for some reason. I think Jack is the only exception in either game.

Modifié par Raokin, 26 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[sagefic]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Actually, I like them all.

(Oh, wait, was that shameless self-promotion? I can never tell... :innocent:)

*claps*

*bows*

Truly, though. Every time I think "Meh. I don't like this character." I then challenge myself to take them along on the squad more often.

The result is, I've come to like all the characters as interesting and unique. There's a difference between liking a character for the sake of the story and liking a person because you think they'd make a good friend or whatever. I find that not liking a character in game is often a result of confusing the two.

All the ME characters are all interesting in their own ways. As characters, they're awesome. As allies for shep, I think they're certainly worthy of that title.

Modifié par sagequeen, 26 octobre 2010 - 11:48 .

[aeetos21]

touching back on what nightwriter and collider were talking about - i'm dissapointed that they didn't expand more on miranda's past but i'm also happy. for one it allows the miranda character (who likely survived most playthroughs given there were only two times she could die throughout the entire suicide mission) to have her storyline develop further. if we got all info in me2 then it'd be tougher finding new content to explore with the character in me3. as it is there are a lot of directions bioware can go: settling the score with her father, keeping TIM from using oriana as leverage, possible catfight between ashley and miranda... in fact that could be a good question. which characters would bioware have a harder time fleshing out in me3? i'm not saying they couldn't, god knows the writers can make monuments out of bottlecaps if they had to but which characters would be more difficult to further the storyline?



jacob, who i understand not too many people go crazy for, doesn't have too much to offer in backstory in me3. unless i have his history wrong the only thing i can think of is some long lost family member showing up and he wanting to reestablish connections with them



could do something with garrus and his father and maybe learning the fallout from sidonis



lot of development for tali, i think, i mean we haven't even seen her face and there's the question of how will the quarians find resolution with their homeworld



i dunno, pick and choose i gues

[Getorex]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

The Human characters since they're put on every available surface of merchandise despite the fact most people don't like them.

Speak for yourself. If you are an actual chick or playing Shep as a chick, you are by default stuck with mostly boning various aliens of vaguely bird/reptilian/insectoid visage. As a dude, you get cream of the crop hotty humans and VERY human-like aliens. No insectoidals (turians), no throw-away bland human guy (one per game). And no bizarre desire to have a shot at boning a fat midget (volus) or a supremely ugly 4-eyed batarian.

A trend? Fems or those playing fem Sheps seem to want to do anything BUT a human. I suspect that most guys are not really interested in odd (or outright ugly) aliens and are happy with human females or VERY human-like aliens (ie, Asari - hot VERY humanoid females with a minor difference of squid arms rather than hair, happily not obstrusive, and Quarians, far less avian-like than turians and no wierd hip joint system, very nice curves, very humanoid, and a face left largely to the imagination but with hints in ME1 and 2 to let you know it is more human than other...and no LI choice where you are looking at sucking face with a creature with lips like a dog and the teeth of a piranha).

So, for the sake of knowledge...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Raokin]

Getorex wrote...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

None of the above, but you left out drell. I vote that they add more drell to the game.

[Getorex]

Raokin wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

None of the above, but you left out drell. I vote that they add more drell to the game.

Oops, forgot them. Yeah, they are the only near normal humanoid after asari among the aliens available to a female Shep, and the asari simply gives you either a simple lesbian flavor or a titillating bit of girl-on-girl for the guys.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Shavon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

It's called the Carth syndrome.
...And it's way too common in BW games.

Bw seems to recycle many archetypes for different characters throughout their games. And Carth, imo, is one of the least annoying. I don't really get that whole complaint, tbh.

The whole dead-ex thing seems to be particularly pervasive, and it usually afflicts characters who are romance interests.  There's a difference between an archetype and a freaking identical sob story, as with Thane and Carth.  Dead wife, guilt issues, estranged child sidequest.  You could probably swap the lines, and apart from the little bits about the Sith, you might not be able to tell the difference.  

The dead ex thing gets employed for emotional punch.  I have no problem with the dead ex thing per se--I got sick of it when it kept being used to elicit sympathy for a character when something different could have been used for the same point.  Zevran?  Could have used a close friend or mentor just as easily.  Valen?  Totally unnecessary; the dead ex lasted all of one throwaway line.  Using the same tool over and over again to get sympathy from the player produces diminishing returns.  After the sixth time, I don't feel bad for the woobie dude with the dead ex--I just kind of want to punch him until he shuts up about it.  Definitely producing the wrong reaction due to oversaturation of the trope.

Christmas Ape wrote...
In fact, on reflection, the fact they're staring down the Omega-4 Relay and it still scares him so much to feel is yet more poignant than the fact he's sick and it scares him so much to feel. One act threatens to break the resolve he's spent so much time forging.

We know they could have a year. They can't even be sure they'll survive the day.

See, THAT was the bit I appreciated about Thane's romance.  Not the dead spouse, not the bratty kid, not the ZOMG I'M TORTURED thing.  The fact that he's so scared in the face of death because of his feelings for this person who just appeared out of the blue and turned his world upside down.  That, I thought, was very sweet.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:12 .

[Getorex]

Sable Rhapsody wrote..


See, THAT was the bit I appreciated about Thane's romance.  Not the dead spouse, not the bratty kid, not the ZOMG I'M TORTURED thing.  The fact that he's so scared in the face of death because of his feelings for this person who just appeared out of the blue and turned his world upside down.  That, I thought, was very sweet.

I just flashed on a convo that could/should have been available to Shep vs Thane! This touchy-feely Thane thing brings a flash of inspiration!

Thane: "I'm scared to die now even though I'm dead in a year or so anyway. I'm tortured because of my murderous past even though I don't take responsibility for it because, you know, my body did it not me."

Male Shep: "Wow, Thane. [pause] I'm irked at the Illusive Man again."

Thane: "Uh...what?"

Male Shep: "Well, I would have liked to have more information on you in the dossier before I recruited you. He left out key information."

Thane: "What do you mean?"

Male Shep: "It's just I would have worked to make sure all was prepared for you on the ship before you arrived to make you more comfortable if only the Illusive Man had been more forthcoming."

Thane: "I am quite comfortable, Commander, I assure you."

Male Shep: "No no no, please. If only the Illusive Man had informed me that you are a godd@mned sissified panzy I'd have made sure your room was properly prepared. You know, pink walls, stuffed animals on your bed, hearts and bows on the wall. You are a damned panzy to get all sh*t-ur-pants scairt that you might die on this mission when YOU ARE DEAD IN A YEAR ANYWAY! Hell you mamby-pamby, you will be bed-ridden well before a year is out. It's not as if you are going to be healthy and strong up until the very end and then just go out like a burned out lightbulb - POOF! Hell boy, you should be looking forward to dying in a fight rather than wasting away on a bed! Godd@mn sissy! Be sure to wear your prettiest skirt to the suicide mission."

Shep leaves the room shaking his head. "F*cking pantywaist. I think I need to go down to engineering and bang me some Jack to get all the sissy off that you sprayed all over me. Oh, hey Thane, remind me after the mission if you survive, that we need to head over to Omega and buy you some testicles."

---
Hey EA Games and Bioware, I'm available to help you man up your dialog. We need to get this stuff into real military style conversations. The real deal would curl your hair and turn it white.

Sorry, it's late and I'm tired and a little punchy...but it IS genious, you have to admit.

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Raokin]

As much as I like Thane, on my first playthrough I was struck by the thought that he seemed too "soft" and sensitive to be an assassin.

[V-rex]

Getorex wrote...

Shavon wrote...

How does a belief in God make someone 'religious?' Did Ashley say she went to Space Church every Sunday? Did Shepard ever stumble upon Ashley praying, or meditating, as Shepard does with Thane? No.

Ashley does not have a religious angle. She has an open belief in God. Two very, very different things.

Liara: mentions belief in many lives somewhat like Buddhists.

Ash: God gives us only one life.

This is religious conceit, not "spirituality".

All this proves is that Ashley's views on spirituality a different to Liara's. She believes in a god and by extension an afterlife, that's all we really get in terms of development of what kind of belief structure it is or even if there IS a belief structure.
It could just be faith in a higher power, without any other aspects of her spiritual side being discussed it's hard to really make a judgemental decision.

And besides even if it is a full on religious aspect, why on Earth should that be a problem? Seriously? She doesn't display signs of fanatcism or insane devotion, she only mentions it once and she certainly doesn't force anything on you, just asks for your opinion on the matter and frankly, if someone had an issue with that, then I'd have an issue with them.

Also her going on with "daddy's watching from heaven" (Ugh...no. He's dead babe, he ain't watchin' from ANYWHERE cuz, ya know, HE'S DEAD.)

Very, very nice. So someone using the idea of their father being in heaven and with god to help cope with the loss of a loved one is something that causes you offence?
Seriously, I understand why so many people in the world believe in the afterlife, it's better to imagine someone you loved existing in some other plain of existence rather than just lying in a box in the ground somewhere. Why should such a concept be a bad thing? If it helps her cope with the idea of death then by all means, it doesn't hurt anyone and it really shouldn't be an issue in any way.

I wouldn't have minded a Shep response option after Ash puts it out there that she believes in god and "is that a problem?" along the lines of "Huh, interesting. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster."

Just when I thought my opinion of people who belittle religious beliefs couldn't get any lower. Wow.

I just want to make something clear, I am an athiest myself, I don't believe in god or mysticism or any kind of divine power, or at least I'm not convinced by the idea. But, that doesn't mean I am about to shove rude and harsh insults into someone's face just because they happen to believe in god. .

They have the right to believe whatever they want and it really shouldn't be an issue to anyone. It's funny really, because in some respects it's true, games do teach people new things about themselves.
For instance I learned that I could like a character who was spiritual and had religious idealogies even though I am an athiest and it appears that I've also learned that in the outside world a lot of people can't handle the idea of a person being religious.

Modifié par V-rex, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Getorex]

V-rex wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Shavon wrote...

How does a belief in God make someone 'religious?' Did Ashley say she went to Space Church every Sunday? Did Shepard ever stumble upon Ashley praying, or meditating, as Shepard does with Thane? No.

Ashley does not have a religious angle. She has an open belief in God. Two very, very different things.

Liara: mentions belief in many lives somewhat like Buddhists.

Ash: God gives us only one life.

This is religious conceit, not "spirituality".

All this proves is that Ashley's views on spirituality a different to Liara's. She believes in a god and by extension an afterlife, that's all we really get in terms of development of what kind of belief structure it is or even if there IS a belief structure.
It could just be faith in a higher power, without any other aspects of her spiritual side being discussed it's hard to really make a judgemental decision.

And besides even if it is a full on religious aspect, why on Earth should that be a problem? Seriously? She doesn't display signs of fanatcism or insane devotion, she only mentions it once and she certainly doesn't force anything on you, just asks for your opinion on the matter and frankly, if someone had an issue with that, then I'd have an issue with them.

Also her going on with "daddy's watching from heaven" (Ugh...no. He's dead babe, he ain't watchin' from ANYWHERE cuz, ya know, HE'S DEAD.)

Very, very nice. So someone using the idea of their father being in heaven and with god to help cope with the loss of a loved one is something that causes you offence?
Seriously, I understand why so many people in the world believe in the afterlife, it's better to imagine someone you loved existing in some other plain of existence rather than just lying in a box in the ground somewhere. Why should such a concept be a bad thing? If it helps her cope with the idea of death then by all means, it doesn't hurt anyone and it really shouldn't be an issue in any way.

I wouldn't have minded a Shep response option after Ash puts it out there that she believes in god and "is that a problem?" along the lines of "Huh, interesting. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster."

Just when I thought my opinion of people who belittle religious beliefs couldn't get any lower. Wow.

I just want to make something clear, I am an athiest myself, I don't believe in god or mysticism or any kind of divine power, or at least I'm not convinced by the idea. But, that doesn't mean I am about to shove rude and harsh insults into someone's face just because they happen to believe in god. .

They have the right to believe whatever they want and it really shouldn't be an issue to anyone. It's funny really, because in some respects it's true, games do teach people new things about themselves.
For instance I learned that I could like a character who was spiritual and had religious idealogies even though I am an athiest and it appears that I've also learned that in the outside world a lot of people can't handle the idea of a person being religious.

Dude, I was (mostly) joking. It is annoying, however, when someone simply comes out and in my face (ala Ash) proclaims some religious belief "I believe in god. Is that a problem?"

"Err...it will be if you keep doing what you're doing now and throwing it into conversations at the drop of a hat. God this, god that, heaven, better place, ya-ya-ya. Oh, is this god thing you have going to keep you from sacking out with me? I need to know sooner rather than later because if your god schtick means no sexy without marriage, well, Liara's upstairs and available."

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:08 .

[V-rex]

Getorex wrote...

Dude, I was (mostly) joking. It is annoying, however, when someone simply comes out and in my face (ala Ash) proclaims some religious belief "I believe in god. Is that a problem?"

"Err...it will be if you keep doing what you're doing now and throwing it into conversations at the drop of a hat. God this, god that, heaven, better place, ya-ya-ya. Oh, is this god thing you have going to keep you from sacking out with me?"

Okay, sorry I overreacted. It's just I sort of get sick of seeing Ashley's religion constantly brought up in topics when it really shouldn't be all that important.

But still, again, she only brings it up once and the conversation does head that way when she mentions her father being dead and in turn that he's still watching from... wherever.
I'm just saying, she just asks if there's any problem with her believing in god. Plus, even as an athiest Shepard (or at least one who doesn't vocalise any kind of faith) she can still be romanced, so it's not like it gets in the way or anything.

[Getorex]

V-rex wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Dude, I was (mostly) joking. It is annoying, however, when someone simply comes out and in my face (ala Ash) proclaims some religious belief "I believe in god. Is that a problem?"

"Err...it will be if you keep doing what you're doing now and throwing it into conversations at the drop of a hat. God this, god that, heaven, better place, ya-ya-ya. Oh, is this god thing you have going to keep you from sacking out with me?"

Okay, sorry I overreacted. It's just I sort of get sick of seeing Ashley's religion constantly brought up in topics when it really shouldn't be all that important.

But still, again, she only brings it up once and the conversation does head that way when she mentions her father being dead and in turn that he's still watching from... wherever.
I'm just saying, she just asks if there's any problem with her believing in god. Plus, even as an athiest Shepard (or at least one who doesn't vocalise any kind of faith) she can still be romanced, so it's not like it gets in the way or anything.

I can't currently use the emoticons for some reason so it's hard to add graphic hints.

Actually, Ashley's religion comes up several times. The first time with the "I believe in god", then later with the Liara many lives thing and Ash's god gives us one life, and then later if you romance her when she gets all "you are here for a reason, for a purpose..." Ugh.

My Shep is standing there nodding his head thinking "Yeah, that's nice Ash. Pa-leeze. It's a good thing you're smokin' hot."

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ashley's faith barely comes up at all. She has so many lines of dialogue that don't involve God that saying she constantly brings it up is silly.



She mentions it in that one conversation about her father, offhand once or twice after that.



Saying she believes you are all there for a reason isn't really a religious statement.