531 réponses à ce sujet

[V-rex]

Getorex wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Dude, I was (mostly) joking. It is annoying, however, when someone simply comes out and in my face (ala Ash) proclaims some religious belief "I believe in god. Is that a problem?"

"Err...it will be if you keep doing what you're doing now and throwing it into conversations at the drop of a hat. God this, god that, heaven, better place, ya-ya-ya. Oh, is this god thing you have going to keep you from sacking out with me?"

Okay, sorry I overreacted. It's just I sort of get sick of seeing Ashley's religion constantly brought up in topics when it really shouldn't be all that important.

But still, again, she only brings it up once and the conversation does head that way when she mentions her father being dead and in turn that he's still watching from... wherever.
I'm just saying, she just asks if there's any problem with her believing in god. Plus, even as an athiest Shepard (or at least one who doesn't vocalise any kind of faith) she can still be romanced, so it's not like it gets in the way or anything.

I can't currently use the emoticons for some reason so it's hard to add graphic hints.

Actually, Ashley's religion comes up several times. The first time with the "I believe in god", then later with the Liara many lives thing and Ash's god gives us one life, and then later if you romance her when she gets all "you are here for a reason, for a purpose..." Ugh.

I actually have to admit I never heard the Liara 'many lives' thing, I'm going to assume it's an elevator conversation or something? In any case I would precieve that more as a difference in ideologies, one believing in many lives and the other believing in one single life and then an afterlife.

I also must confess I don't remember her saying Shepard had a reason or purpose in romance at any point. The only other times her religion or openness to the concept of a god really came into play was when she mentions Kaiden must be with god now and mentioning (only with Wrex does this happen) on Noveria that genociding the Rachni people would not be something she'd want on her conciouncence in the event of a judgement day.

Again, I don't really see her as being some kind of zealot or fanatic, just someone with religious beliefs.

My Shep is standing there nodding his head thinking "Yeah, that's nice Ash. Pa-leeze. It's a good thing you're smokin' hot."

It's nice to know someone else agrees that Ashley is smokin' hot.

[achwas]

Raokin wrote...

We clearly place value in different aspects of a character. I do not care as much about Thane's background or the way his story is presented as I do about the sense I get from his personality as revealed through conversations.

I understand how you could be put off by the story being too cliche. I personally am not familiar with any of these stereotypical stories or characters which you claim precede Thane (or at least he doesn't bring anything to mind for me), so everything about him was fairly new and unexpected.

It's not so much the fact that he's dying that makes him tragic to me, but rather his loneliness-- the
fact that he was prepared to die alone. The man had spent a good 10 years of his life friendless, in near solitude, and probably more if you count the years before he met Irikah. The imminence of his death does play a role in how Thane was characterized, but that's not what defines his romance or character to me. He has a great deal of emotional issues and pain that he'd been holding in, unable to express to anyone for so long. It's the fact that he finally has someone to confide in, to care for him after such a long period of hopelessness that makes the romance meaningful to me.

I think that as long as a significant amount of people can connect emotionally to a certain type of situation or character in literature, movies, etc., if they still have relevance and meaning to us and our lives, then they are worth reusing and fail to become mere clichés.

okies, we come to the same conclusion then:

"Depth" to you is the implied emotional depth and intensity of the emotions shown.

"Depth" to me is the degree of detail and a rounded, believable and interconnected personality.

I will admit that your P.o,V is valid for Thane if one gives "completeness of character" a place in the second row.  To me a character lives only with coherent detail - which may form the foundation for deeper emotions or lack thereof. But without a solid foundation, any intense and eep emotions seem inherently fake to me.

Enlightening to have sparred with you over this. Thanks !

[achwas]

Raokin wrote...

I've always had trouble being interested in the human characters as well for some reason. I think Jack is the only exception in either game.

Well, I actually  do like Joker, although we learn little about his past....

I alco can sympathize with Miranda, having grown up with friends who experienced a less intense scenario of hers, minus the genetic breeding, replaced by various attempts to at least guarantee physical perfection and all sorts of dynastic wish-fullfillments. That sort of fills in the blanks of  her story as available ingame. Still would not want  to date her^^

Last but not least, the "alien" charcters are utterly human in their mindsets and motivations, they just wear fancy polygonal shapes and textures. Legion may be the one least so, but still....

[achwas]

Getorex wrote...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

None of the above to begin with.

Garrus is "dateable", solely on the strengths of his character, any ... ahem...desire for  "reach vs. flexibility" seems sort of forced. My opinion of Thane is on record in this thread. Jacob... as interesting as your average sports-jock, e.g. not at all^^ Guess he is keeping score of pushups/whatever even in the sack.

And in all honesty, since not much real time has subjectively passed for Shepard since the events of ME-1 and any LI there, would there really be a huge urge to throw yourself at some-body just for the "squeeziness" ?

[achwas]

Shavon wrote...

achwas wrote...
Oh nevermind that he is a professional assassin for hire, who has killed countless people because he felt a moral obligation to the ever-so-peaceful and consensual Hanar for saving part of his race ? With no real qualms about it, because only his backers carry the blam, right ? Did it never occur to himwhether to refuse an assignment might be the right thing to do ?  And the rest of the background in the veins of  your average teenage-romantic-horror-vampire doesn't help to add any depth or likability either....

You seem to misunderstand solopsism.  An assassin for hire, carries out the will of those who hire him.  In Western culture, we believe that the person who was hired to commit a crime, as well as the person who actually committed a crime, are both equally guilty.  Thane is part of another species of alien, and cultural world view, so the perception of where the guilt truly lies is different.  That mind be hard to understand a different perspective, but it exists, and that is what the devs were trying to portray when they wrote a character with a belief system different from our own. Shocking, I know, but not too hard to understand if you take the time to think about it

So what are his strong suits that make him sympathetic ?
Oh and yes he's is doomed to die within a year, which is soooooo tragic, right ? Unless yof course you are not really looking for a longterm relationship with your fem-shep, that is, then it is in fact rather convenient

Ok, you are a little sick with this comment . . . .

And ......he has read a classic !

Shallow. Sad. Pathetic.

The quoting of Hobbes was not to show that Thane reada classic once.  He was finding a way to relate to Shepard, by acknowledging he read some of the human philosophers.  How is that shallow?  How is that pathetic?  A non-human reading human philosophers, to better understand a different point of view.  OMG, that's so sad, alright! /sarcasm

Still feel a crush for him ?

Yeah, reasonable debate=/= douchebaggery.  Try again.

For one, I wasn't even talking to you most of the time, but to Raokin, hence my statements were mostly not aimed at any of your claims.

"Quoting Hobbes" (or whoever) to imply greater understanding is an utter clichee and a worn out device in dramaturgy, theatrical or literary. Especially since the Quote is never taken to heart by Thane, even less affecting his modus of living, and nor relevant in the context it was used in either. It's an empty gesture, written in to show his "classiness"
Just how precisely does reading Hobbes make him understand the human condition any better ? He was not even applying it to human history, but to the Drell self-destruction while frenetically fighting over resources. Which is inherently funny in itself because Hobbes was writing about the inter-dependency of governments and the rights of the population in terms of a social compact, and the need for unalterable legitimacy required in this compact, contrasting the anarchy of war with an ordered, reliable society.


As for your take on Thane's dis-association. for one "Western Take" on culpability is far more differentiated than that and you are entirely in the wrong about it. We (in my case the European criminal legal systems) actually do distinguish rather precisely  between a contractor and instigator of a crime, and the executive agent, and there are some readily accepted legal constellations where you actually have a blameless executor and a highly culpable backer. NONE of which are even remotely like this

....but Thane is capable of distinguishing right from wrong, recognises his marks for what they are, and this does make him a voluntary accessory, fully culpable and not a mere  tragic tool and to underline his mental involvement he even actually claims to feel guilt about his actions, expressed by a desire for forgiveness. 
WHY would he long for forgiveness if his alien mindest actually told him "there is no blame on you" ?

Which makes his "alien mindset" either so much humbug, a thin coat of veneer plastered onto an entirely different cloth underneath or someone really messed up his voice-acting lines and let the mistake slip through post-production.
As depicted in ME-2 he is fully involved in his deeds, as a proud and skilled operative, who upon approaching death, fears for his "immortal soul" (.."grant me forgiveness" ) with a wimpy curtain of an excuse for shifting the actual blame, while still trying to purchase his way out of damnation. Like we have never seen that one before....

Nevermind that even with that "utterly alien mindeset" he is very humanized in his affections, values, habits and emotional lynchpins, which.. must be jarring, if one really sees him as "alien".

If the developers had cared and been capable of doing it, they might have elaborated some on his "lack of mental participation", shown us how that actually disassociates him by dropping in a "thoughtless" zen-like state of operation. Or a possessive state, where another aliens will actually inhabited his body and accessed his abilities. Or  a disassociated personality, "the hunter" taking over from gentle and remorseful Thane. And that's just three ways of doing it which pulled from my head in 5 minutes, for free, on my coffee break.

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Getorex]

achwas wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

None of the above to begin with.

Garrus is "dateable", solely on the strengths of his character, any ... ahem...desire for  "reach vs. flexibility" seems sort of forced. My opinion of Thane is on record in this thread. Jacob... as interesting as your average sports-jock, e.g. not at all^^ Guess he is keeping score of pushups/whatever even in the sack.

And in all honesty, since not much real time has subjectively passed for Shepard since the events of ME-1 and any LI there, would there really be a huge urge to throw yourself at some-body just for the "squeeziness" ?

Yes, absolutely.

I look at the time passage differently because of the requirements of actual reality vs presentation and playability required to play a game. Two years have passed from Shep being "mostly dead."
However, how much time passed from the battle at the citadel against Saren and becoming "mostly dead"? How much actual time passes between the time one leaves one planet or location and then travels to a jump gate to make a jump and THEN travel to another planet or station or even another local system? Even if jumping via gates is nearly instantaneous, travel to planets or nearby star systems is NOT going to be instantaneous. Days and weeks, at least, rather than the few seconds depicted in the game, is what you are looking at. And do you honestly think that the actual real-world time you spend on Omega or the Citadel, etc, etc, in the game is REALLY the amount of time (mere minutes, all told) you and your ship would be spending there? No way. More time and interaction that you never see/can never see has to occur if one suspends disbelief to accept the "reality" of the game. This wouldn't be a case of Ash being lost to you as your LI for just a few objective days or weeks, then spotting Miranda and thinking, "DAMN! I really REALLY want that" as if the previous was just a casual and fun bit of play. It would be simply the fact of close association and collaboration over extended time, lack of same with the former, the passage of time, etc.

In any case, two years is plenty of time to move on to someone new, particularly if you are interacting all the time as you would if they were on your crew. A YEAR is plenty of time. In many cases, half a year is plenty of time to begin to move on.

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:55 .

[achwas]

Getorex wrote...


Yes, absolutely.

I look at the time passage differently because of the requirements of actual reality vs presentation and playability required to play a game. Two years have passed from Shep being "mostly dead."
However, how much time passed from the battle at the citadel against Saren and becoming "mostly dead"? How much actual time passes between the time one leaves one planet or location and then travels to a jump gate to make a jump and THEN travel to another planet or station or even another local system?

The trailer clearly states "one month after the battle of the Citadel". Its also the fifth or sixth system the Normandy SR-1 is scanning on that particular mission, and I assume she might have some point in dock after the battle, getting repaired, restocked and generally worshipped for her role. So, interstellar travel is rather fast, crossing and scanning a system taking at most a couple of days.

Then Shepard dies/mostly dies/gets ressurected, with no conscious passage of time for her/him. And Ashely/Kaiden/liara is with them right until mere minutes before dying.

So its about one month after the last quiet moment before the Citadel. Add to that another month or two on her current crusade, than one faces the SM, and snogging the LI. Two months, maybe three at the outside. And Shepard never even (until Horizon or Illium) has a moment of "oh, da**n it's over" before meeting the LI face to face

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Getorex]

achwas wrote...

Getorex wrote...


Yes, absolutely.

I look at the time passage differently because of the requirements of actual reality vs presentation and playability required to play a game. Two years have passed from Shep being "mostly dead."
However, how much time passed from the battle at the citadel against Saren and becoming "mostly dead"? How much actual time passes between the time one leaves one planet or location and then travels to a jump gate to make a jump and THEN travel to another planet or station or even another local system?

The trailer clearly states "one month after the battle of the Citadel". Its also the fifth or sixth system the Normandy SR-1 is scanning on that particular mission, and I assume she might have some point in dock after the battle, getting repaired, restocked and generally worshipped for her role. So, interstellar travel is rather fast, crossing and scanning a system taking at most a couple of days.

Then Shepard dies/mostly dies/gets ressurected, with no conscious passage of time for her/him. And Ashely/Kaiden/liara is with them right until mere minutes before dying.

So its about one month after the last quiet moment before the Citadel. Add to that another month or two on her current crusade, than one faces the SM, and snogging the LI. Two months, maybe three at the outside. And Shepard never even (until Horizon or Illium) has a moment of "oh, da**n it's over" before meeting the LI face to face

Didn't pay much attention to the time specs in the cutscene. Nonetheless, even fast gate-based interplanetary jumping isn't enough to cut time down to a mere month. A military operation, even this one, takes more than a month. Travel within a solar system, even if fast, still takes a lot of (objective) time. The game cuts it down to the seconds necessary to move the little ship cartoon from one cartoon planet or solar system to the next. That is not what is (or can be) happening in a "real" ME universe. Days and weeks within a solar system, a number of weeks from one system to another otherwise, the jump gates are themselves unnecessary and the ENTIRE galaxy could be explored and colonization started in the matter of a few years without ever resorting to jump gates. There would be NO uncontacted races or new ones to be discovered anymore. Yet much of the galaxy is unavailable or unexplored or undeveloped. It isn't as fast as you assume it is, nor can it be or the entire jump gate basis to galactic civilization is rendered moot.

Hell, it takes an hour to grocery shop plus travel time. It is only going to take a few hours to recruit a teammate, another to do their loyalty mission, move on the the next, do side missions, explore planets for resources/credits, explore a colony, etc, so that the final mission can be completed...all in a month or so? Unreasonable. The actual battle itself, just an hour or half a dozen hours (check the battle times for Afghanistan) but the time before a battle, the prep, the training, etc, takes much much longer.

As for Ash, she has been 2 years away living her life even if you give Shepard a mere few days of objective time due to his "mostly dead" condition. SHE has moved on, most assuredly. No one pines away for years (and is healthy) - certainly not over something that barely started before it ended in the first place. Shepard got a barely started with his romance, got what appears to have been a single sexual interaction (shortly after the first kiss so there isn't some huge building relationship there). It was not some deep, all-encompassing love affair to be mourned for a long time. It's more like, "F*ck! That might have gone somewhere." The ONLY way to rectify it and make it more is to assume a LOT of unseen time and interaction, as I state is required above. One kiss and single episode of sex doesn't a major relationship make. Hell, it's just a (very good) first date!

I would deny that it is possible or reasonable that the ENTIRE situation we go through/see/experience in ME2 takes a mere month.

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:30 .

[achwas]

Getorex wrote...

achwas wrote...

So its about one month after the last quiet moment before the Citadel. Add to that another month or two on her current crusade, than one faces the SM, and snogging the LI. Two months, maybe three at the outside. And Shepard never even (until Horizon or Illium) has a moment of "oh, da**n it's over" before meeting the LI face to face

Didn't pay much attention to the time specs in the cutscene. Nonetheless, even fast gate-based interplanetary jumping isn't enough to cut time down to a mere month. A military operation, even this one, takes more than a month. Travel within a solar system, even if fast, still takes a lot of (objective) time. The game cuts it down to the seconds necessary to move the little ship cartoon from one cartoon planet or solar system to the next. That is not what is (or can be) happening in a "real" ME universe. Days and weeks within a solar system, a number of weeks from one system to another (otherwise, the jump gates are themselves unnecessary and the ENTIRE galaxy could be explored and colonization started in the matter of a few years without ever resorting to jump gates. Yet much of the galaxy is unavailable or unexplored or undeveloped. It isn't as fast as you assume it is, nor can it be or the entire jump gate basis to galactic civilization is rendered moot.

Ash has been 2 years away even if you give Shepard a mere few days of objective time due to his "mostly dead" condition. SHE has moved on, most assuredly. No one pines away for years (and is healthy) - certainly not over something that barely started before it ended. Shepard got a barely started with his romance, got what appears to have been a single sexual interaction in bed (shortly after the first kiss finally happened). That makes it a deep, all-encompassing love affair to be mourned for a long time? It's more like, "F*ck! That might have gone somewhere."

I would deny that it is possible or reasonable that the ENTIRE situation we go through/see/experience in ME2 takes a mere month.

This....cannot be helped. While I agree with some of your observations, that's the time frame ME-2 hands to us. And basically only the first four recruitments happen before Horizon, so assuming only two or three months having passed, less since the ressurection seems reasonable enough.

Since the LI inevitably travels along on the Normandy until the "trailer event", I also consider it more than fair to assume the relationship developed and grew. If the LI is Liara, in the LotSB DLC there is even some debate about it and Liara's reasons for withdrawing into a shell again

To close this ( we are dangerously off-topic anyway^^ ), Ash's point was never in question, merely Shepard's subjective experience. To him/her, the ME-1 LI , if any, is still a fresh thing within the timeframe of ME-2. Liara, unlike Ash,  or Kaiden, is obviously not "over " shep anyway.

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Getorex]

achwas wrote...

Getorex wrote...

achwas wrote...

So its about one month after the last quiet moment before the Citadel. Add to that another month or two on her current crusade, than one faces the SM, and snogging the LI. Two months, maybe three at the outside. And Shepard never even (until Horizon or Illium) has a moment of "oh, da**n it's over" before meeting the LI face to face

Didn't pay much attention to the time specs in the cutscene. Nonetheless, even fast gate-based interplanetary jumping isn't enough to cut time down to a mere month. A military operation, even this one, takes more than a month. Travel within a solar system, even if fast, still takes a lot of (objective) time. The game cuts it down to the seconds necessary to move the little ship cartoon from one cartoon planet or solar system to the next. That is not what is (or can be) happening in a "real" ME universe. Days and weeks within a solar system, a number of weeks from one system to another (otherwise, the jump gates are themselves unnecessary and the ENTIRE galaxy could be explored and colonization started in the matter of a few years without ever resorting to jump gates. Yet much of the galaxy is unavailable or unexplored or undeveloped. It isn't as fast as you assume it is, nor can it be or the entire jump gate basis to galactic civilization is rendered moot.

Ash has been 2 years away even if you give Shepard a mere few days of objective time due to his "mostly dead" condition. SHE has moved on, most assuredly. No one pines away for years (and is healthy) - certainly not over something that barely started before it ended. Shepard got a barely started with his romance, got what appears to have been a single sexual interaction in bed (shortly after the first kiss finally happened). That makes it a deep, all-encompassing love affair to be mourned for a long time? It's more like, "F*ck! That might have gone somewhere."

I would deny that it is possible or reasonable that the ENTIRE situation we go through/see/experience in ME2 takes a mere month.

This....cannot be helped. While I agree with some of your observations, that's the time frame ME-2 hands to us. And basically only the first four recruitments happen before Horizon, so assuming only two or three months having passed, less since the ressurection seems reasonable enough.

Since the LI inevitably travels along on the Normandy until the "trailer event", I also consider it more than fair to assume the relationship developed and grew. If the LI is Liara, in the LotSB DLC there is even some debate about it and Liara's reasons for withdrawing into a shell again

To close this ( we are dangerously off-topic anyway^^ ), Ash's point was never in question, merely Shepard's subjective experience. To him/her, the ME-1 LI , if any, is still a fresh thing within the timeframe of ME-2. Liara, unlike Ash,  or Kaiden, is obviously not "over " shep anyway.

Yeah, I see we are drifting far off topic so I too will close with...had forgotten the fact that Ash (or Liara) were there on the ship when Shep sort of bit the dust. OK, so that gives a few more weeks to the whole thing. Again, implying quite a bit of time and experience having to be interpolated to and extended to mentally get the story coherent.

I know it is the limits of the game (who would play a real time game? Maybe if you are bedridden and can't do anything else :-)...

ON topic...I have always killed Kaiden and kept Ash. Didn't want to kill the hot chick that I was planning to have (even when I went with Liara I kept Ash). On my most recent play-through, I gave Kaiden more of a chance by chatting him up more and started to like the character more so that when it came time to kill him it was harder. But I still did it and LI'd Ash again.

[Juliaxo]

achwas wrote...

....but Thane is capable of distinguishing right from wrong, recognises his marks for what they are, and this does make him a voluntary accessory, fully culpable and not a mere  tragic tool and to underline his mental involvement he even actually claims to feel guilt about his actions, expressed by a desire for forgiveness. 
WHY would he long for forgiveness if his alien mindest actually told him "there is no blame on you" ?

Thane says that the only people he felt guilt for were the people he chose to kill -  the people who killed his wife. He was taught to grant death "swiftly, cleanly" but he let Irikah's murderers linger. Bailey even talks about a drell who killed a bunch of "real bad people" on the Citadel 10 years ago and the Shadow Broker mentions a one-hour massacre on Omega for which Thane is responsible. I would guess those deeds are what he seeks forgiveness for. He wasn't ordered to kill those people. He killed them of his own free will for revenge.

The Hanar trained him to be an assassin since he was 6 years old. He was conditioned into that sort of life. Even after he met his wife and settled down to start a family he had no other skills so he freelanced. He couldn't completely break away from the life even then and it ended up resulting in his wife's death. There are definite things in his past that he would like to atone for.

[achwas]

Juliaxo wrote...
The Hanar trained him to be an assassin since he was 6 years old. He was conditioned into that sort of life. Even after he met his wife and settled down to start a family he had no other skills so he freelanced. He couldn't completely break away from the life even then and it ended up resulting in his wife's death. There are definite things in his past that he would like to atone for.

To cut this short - Thane himself admits (talk#3 onboard Normandy) he feels the guilt of every kill.
In the same chat he alleges that the Drell mysticisim, not the Hanar training, is the core of the "my body is guilty, my mind ist not" dogma. So, it's not his training, though the Hanar chose skillfully in their pick for "our pet asassin race". Therefore, his longing for forgiveness should not be restricted to his personal kills - for which he would have ample cause and justification, btw. I bet the Drell pantheon has plenty to say on the topic of just revenge.

And I daresay, with his nifty "I hide in the darkest corners" trick he could easily find work as a private eye or corporate spy... if he actually cared. "Bodyguard" might be a vindicating option too

Modifié par achwas, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Getorex wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

The Human characters since they're put on every available surface of merchandise despite the fact most people don't like them.

Speak for yourself. If you are an actual chick or playing Shep as a chick, you are by default stuck with mostly boning various aliens of vaguely bird/reptilian/insectoid visage. As a dude, you get cream of the crop hotty humans and VERY human-like aliens. No insectoidals (turians), no throw-away bland human guy (one per game). And no bizarre desire to have a shot at boning a fat midget (volus) or a supremely ugly 4-eyed batarian.

A trend? Fems or those playing fem Sheps seem to want to do anything BUT a human. I suspect that most guys are not really interested in odd (or outright ugly) aliens and are happy with human females or VERY human-like aliens (ie, Asari - hot VERY humanoid females with a minor difference of squid arms rather than hair, happily not obstrusive, and Quarians, far less avian-like than turians and no wierd hip joint system, very nice curves, very humanoid, and a face left largely to the imagination but with hints in ME1 and 2 to let you know it is more human than other...and no LI choice where you are looking at sucking face with a creature with lips like a dog and the teeth of a piranha).

So, for the sake of knowledge...

Show of hands...who wants a chance to "romance" a volus, a varren, a rachni, a krogan, or a mech? Those who actually raise your hands, female player and/or fem Shep? This is a scientific study so be honest. :-)

Oi, i'm Male Shep and I still think Garrus and Thane are sexy. I spent alot of time in the elevators in ME1 starring at Garrus's awesome hips lol. And Thane is classy but I can't stand the side of his head. The rest is great.

[Carmen_Willow]

GodWood wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...
Jack is my least favorite character. ~ I don't care that she's been tortured as a child (wah, wah, wah)

Ahh the internet.

From your brief response, I was unable to tell if you were being ironic or what.  However, you left the important qualifier out when you shortened my quote, which was "As the Commander...."

I, as, Margaret Shepard, woman may indeed feel sorrow and pity for a woman who was destroyed as a child in an attempt to produce a biotic god.

As the Commander, I cannot care, should not care and do not care.  My job. in leading the team, is to do my best to ensure that the mission is successful.  Jack's behavior in the game, her words, her actions and her past behavior all add up to one conclusion for me as Margaret Shepard, Commander:  She's too unstable; she's too violent; and she is a rage-addict.  Jack is not suited to my team. 

I realize that you can metagame and know that she's not going to blow up the ship....but absent that knowledge, I would not want her on my team.  Therefore, she does not go out on missions with me, ever.  As I said, I would love the option to dismiss her from the team and drop her off at Omega.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
I, as, Margaret Shepard, woman may indeed feel sorrow and pity for a woman who was destroyed as a child in an attempt to produce a biotic god.

I can smell my greatness!

I'm sorry but it had to be done.

[Redcoat]

With Jack, it sounded like someone really wanted to write this character without giving much thought to whether she'd actually be a good teammate or not. If you mod the game to allow recruitment of all squadmates at the beginning, and you bring Tali to Jack's recruitment mission, she says something like, "are you sure you want to get this woman, Shepard?" to which I might have said, "no, but the game is making me, so..."

Sure, she has powerful biotics, but so does Samara, and Samara has both discipline and self-control, two things Jack sorely lacks. And even if you disagree with Samara's justicar code, at least she has a system that makes her actions predictable, while you can't say the same about Jack.

[PauseforEffect]

If I may offer a thought on Thane's beliefs, it makes a bit of sense if you consider voluntary and involuntary reactions. A knee tapped with a hammer will jerk in a doctor's office just as a flinch can be expected when someone is surprised. What is not controlled consciously could be considered the body's will while the movements directed by our conscious would belong to the "soul".

To interpret it a bit further, Thane's belief in the soul and body being disconnected through certain circumstances might match Freud's explanation of the ego and the id. Struggles between personal desire and fitting into social norms. A body's instinctive self-preservation through fight/flight is exploited by the hanar to train a malleable child so that their instincts will kick in without outside social conditioning hampering it. The child's mind or "soul" would be conditioned to believe itself a tool to preserve it from the trauma of the assasinations they must carry out for the hanar.

When thought of it that way, the hanar seem a bit kinder to their agents than humans would be. Of course, we would never justify using a child to commit murder.

Just a thought....

[Nadya2]

i used to think i hated zaed but lately have been reading some of his stories and comments if you take him with you to certain missions,  if you take zaed to the mission you rescue garrus, you can see he has some friends among the blue suns.  he is a neat character. i just wish you had more interaction with him.

the only character i could say i dont care much for is Jacob.  i find him dull , boring, ugly and the last man on the entire galaxy i would have a romance with.

in Me1   ashley was the only one that irritated me at times, she can be portrait as a bigot but she has a reason why. i don't condone her attitude but at one point she explains you why she feels so uncomfortable around aliens.

[Juliaxo]

achwas wrote...
To cut this short - Thane himself admits (talk#3 onboard Normandy) he feels the guilt of every kill.

Do you happen to know the dialogue for that? I don't remember that at all and I don't have the game handy to check. Maybe it's part of a dialogue path I never chose. What I do remember is that he talks about his lack of guilt while explaining to Shep about Solipsism. Shepard asks if he remembers all of his assassinations and there's also an option to say something like "That must be difficult. At any moment you could relive the guilt" to which he says he never felt any particular guilt about his contracts. Then later on after you do his loyalty mission succesfully and he explains about what happened to his wife he mentions that the people responsible for her death were the only deaths on his own conscience because he chose to kill them.

In the same chat he alleges that the Drell mysticisim, not the Hanar training, is the core of the "my body is guilty, my mind ist not" dogma. So, it's not his training, though the Hanar chose skillfully in their pick for "our pet asassin race". Therefore, his longing for forgiveness should not be restricted to his personal kills - for which he would have ample cause and justification, btw. I bet the Drell pantheon has plenty to say on the topic of just revenge.

I know his beliefs are a drell thing. What I meant is not so much to do with his spiritual beliefs but the way he was conditioned to be a weapon by the Hanar at an early age. Even getting married and having a child didn't change that. I just brought it up because it seems to me that he also feels guilt for that and not being there more for his family. Its part of what he feels he needs to atone for.

Modifié par Juliaxo, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:39 .

[kaimanaMM]

Juliaxo wrote...

achwas wrote...
To cut this short - Thane himself admits (talk#3 onboard Normandy) he feels the guilt of every kill.

Do you happen to know the dialogue for that? 

Thane does not say he feels the guilt of every kill.  He says : 

"In perfect detail.  Every mistake I've made, every target's last breath."

That line is pulled from the audio files I have and I believe it's in response to Shepard's question, 'You can relive every assassination you've made'.  I'll load up the game in a few to check for sure.

EDIT : Loaded up the game, went through the conversation.  This is the exact convo.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Or some people might just not like Thane?

[achwas]

mashavasilec wrote...
and how is reading classics sad and pathetic? writing posts on BSN is sad and pathetic. eating food is sad and pathetic. we are all sad and pathetic creatures. deal with it

The "use" of reading classics as a narrative tool and "badge of honour" to indicate hidden depths and sensitivity is sad and pathetic unless one deliberately aims at not being original . It''s an overused and rather tacky device.
Like the archetypal "dumb blonde bimbo" (not to be found) or the "underrated for her smarts because of her looks female executive" (narrowly avoided with Miranda ). Or the "tough-as-nails enforcer who secretly writes sensitive poetry"  - btw, a trope nicely used with a twist for Jack in LotSB.
Besides, while it seems acceptable in Thane to posture, I have yet to see it mentioned as a strong point of Morinth, where it is - often enough - refered to as "posing" and "elitist". Two chars, two standards I guess

As for reading the classics - by all means ! Wherever, whatever and whenever - just don't sit there and use it as a sign of "depth" <_<

Modifié par achwas, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:57 .