531 réponses à ce sujet

[achwas]

mrsph wrote...

Uhh, Garrus would probably agree with the stuff that Bailey is up to. Since Garrus is more of a means to an end kind of guy. Garrus even implies that he roughed up a few suspects in Mass Effect.

Garrus is also the guy who hates being not allowed to "touch" bad guys because of "certain arrangements". And who also tends to be rather old-fashioned in the "punishment" and "vengeance" department. Just ask the the late ""Fade" aka Harkin

[Sable Rhapsody]

On Tali and Liara: I played with both unromanced, as a FemShep, and I ended up thinking they'd both done a lot of growing up, especially Liara. I do agree that both have a little bit of the hero worship complex toward Shepard, but to be entirely honest, most of your ME1 crew (again, Wrex excepted) seem to have that to some degree, especially Kaidan if he's a potential romance interest. Addressing Tali in particular, at least within the quarian culture, she certainly grew up, going from a kid on Pilgrimage to a highly valued member of the fleet conducting sensitive missions. As a person, I felt she was able to handle herself a little better.

[tonnactus]

Collider wrote...

I find it strange that one would say Tali is a "Shepard fangirl," yet Liara isn't.

Liara is swooning over Shepard the hero from the moment she's on the Normandy, and the very first two conversations you have with her are flavored with Liara crushing hard on Shepard. You don't have to do anything special

Rescuing her and the mindmelds arent special....
Sure.

[Ryzaki]

tonnactus wrote...

Collider wrote...

I find it strange that one would say Tali is a "Shepard fangirl," yet Liara isn't.

Liara is swooning over Shepard the hero from the moment she's on the Normandy, and the very first two conversations you have with her are flavored with Liara crushing hard on Shepard. You don't have to do anything special

Rescuing her and the mindmelds arent special....
Sure.

You forget that Shep rescues Tali? Twice? 

Along with possibly giving her information to complete her pilgrimage? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Errationatus]

Miranda: 
Control chip.  Hardcore Cerberus apologist.  Makes excuses, takes no responsibility for virtually anything except her limited successes, ignores the rather inhuman failures.  Unknown number of children, tortured, maimed and killed at Teltin merely evokes "Clearly you were a mistake".  Rachni, husks, thorian, Toombs, Akuze, she simply passes the buck.  Humans turned to goo by Collectors? That illicts sudden conscience and defection from Cerberus.  It's a pity someone so supposedly brilliant (c'mon - she compares herself to Mordin!  I think not.) uses that 'brilliance' to excuse atrocity.  Sorry - too much to ignore for some 'perfect" engine room nookie.  Even that looked cheap.

The sad thing is how many semantic hoops Mirifans have to leap through to justify her. 

No matter how "sexy" she is - and that's entirely subjective - I'd toss her for Chakwas any day of the week.  Now that DILF is hot - look, brains, voice.  Yowza.


Tali: 
It's kinda like religion - got nothing against Jesus or Mohammed, just their followers.  She also talks too frigg'n much.

"Hi, Tali - how are you?"
"Oh, a little sick.  My suit frayed a tad.  When a quarian's suit frays, it requires five hundred different complicated procedures to fix, and it was first started just after the war with the geth by Ramalamma 'ram' Lammalamma when she got hers snagged on an atmospheric rescrubber.  Why I fixed one of those not too long ago..."
"I should go."

Sweet kid, otherwise.  Unfortunately, romancing her is kinda like hitting on your buddy's much younger sister - the one who had the crush on you when you were in high school and now she's legal - barely.  Do it and you're five kinds of douche for the doing. 

Kinda haveta wondering if that's not the basis for some of the more slobbery Taliwhackers...

Kelly:
Not even remotely necessary to the game.  The only justification for Kelly was some unfunny comic relief and minor titilation at the end of the game.  I'd let 'er get slurpee'd, but I see no reason to let the rest of the crew suffer for her galloping inaity.

Thane:
Garrus can do everything he can, and with more style.  Includes the romance.

"I love you, Siha - have I mentioned my DEAD WIFE any time in the last three seconds?  No?  DEAD WIFE.  Not that it matters, because soon I'll also be dead and with my DEAD WIFE!  Please look after my son because he'll soon have DEAD PARENTS!"

Go take a swim, emo kid.

Kasumi:
Bullet magnet/sponge.  Niiiice ass.  Refuses to stay in cover.  Niiiice ass.  Calls me "Shep", like she'd have to contemplate putting me down one day.  Niiiice ass.

Did I mention she had a nice ass?

Jacob: 
Decent guy, solid bro, if you're a manShep.  Abilities replicated at least in four other squad members.  Insulted my Femshep with his stupid "Miranda deserves a better man than me - but you don't, so it's cool, right?"  Wrong.  Other than that, he's useful for the upgrade, but not much else. 

A pity, really, but there it is.

Whatchagonnado?  Caint please everbodee.

[Sorrel]

As for characters I didn't like...



I'd have to say every character has their merits. Every single one has their own personality and you can choose to mesh with it, flow with it, or clash. I liked that, I feel that all the characters are very unique.



That said, I think a couple of the Love Interest choices were misplaced; Particularly here I am speaking of Jacob. Jacob's LI dialogue all sounds forced, creepy, and a little bit rape-y. Jacob's great as the quiet weapons tech; Speaks his mind, but stays professional on the ship. As a love interest he just doesn't have as much fly as, say, Joker does.

SEE WUT I DID THAR



But no, really.



I suppose I didn't like Jacob as much solely because the LI thing seemed really prevalent with his conversation path. The moment I didn't choose the 'I want you right now' kinds of options with him, he just stopped talking. Had nothing else to say. I felt that only served to further depreciate his character. I know there's limited space/budgeting for dialogue and stuff, but it's really just a lot more like Jacob to be strictly platonic.



He's the only guy who seems to sticks to regs and not spill all his beans to his CO.



Then again who am I to talk of regs, I went with Kaidan. Gcckk

[Ryzaki]

mrsph wrote...

Liara has that whole creepy stalking angle going on in Mass Effect. Jesus Christ, girl, just ask about Shepard.

Also I hated how she existed purely as a"lol space lesbian" whose entire character in Mass Effect revolved around her wanting to **** Shepard. She got better in LotSB (where she finally became an actual character) but it still makes it hard for me to take her seriously at all.

Ryzaki wrote...
You forget that Shep rescues Tali? Twice? 

Along with possibly giving her information to complete her pilgrimage? 

You have to save Liara from Therum, potentially Nyxeris, and pull  her ass out of the fire in LotSB.

Nah. You just warn her. She kicks Nyxeris ass on her own. Though good grief my Renegade Shep is creeped out by Liara. He tells her he hates aliens, is a fanatic racist and yet she still is obssessive. It's creepy you're right about that.

[CalJones]

Hmm. I really didn't care for Liara in ME1. It was a combination of her very stilted voice acting, ninja loving (which puts even DA's Leliana to shame) and strange, drawn-on eyebrows. But by LotSB she appeared to have grown a quad, so to speak. Voice acting was also a lot better. I have two mansheps who have continuing romances with her. Hopefully something will come of that in ME3.

Jacob...well I agree with the above poster. I found his "sorry I have nothing to say right now" line is pretty cold and put me off him initially. "Already? I'm not big on forcing these talks" sounds so much less friendly than your other squaddies saying sorry but they were busy with reports/calibrations/fixing stuff.

He does warm up, of course. The problem is if you play a female. My mansheps don't mind Jacob. He's a straight up sort of guy. But talk to him with a femshep and not only does his dialogue sound sleazy but so does femshep's lines. It makes me think of bad porno. He is the only character I've not wanted to romance. I'll take a spiky turian carapace over that lovingly rendered sixpack anyday.

[Sable Rhapsody]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Thane:
Garrus can do everything he can, and with more style.  Includes the romance.

"I love you, Siha - have I mentioned my DEAD WIFE any time in the last three seconds?  No?  DEAD WIFE.  Not that it matters, because soon I'll also be dead and with my DEAD WIFE!  Please look after my son because he'll soon have DEAD PARENTS!"

Go take a swim, emo kid.

*snerk*

Man, and I harp on poor Carth and his dead wife fixation.  In terms of conversations said in-game, Thane probably talks more about Irikah than he does about FemShep.  Sad.  I did actually like Thane as a character, though I was more disappointed than anything at his wasted coolness potential.  Seriously, badass LEATHER CATSUIT NECKSNAPPING SPACE ASSASSIN.  And...saddled with enough angst to sink an oil tanker.  Maybe if he hadn't been Woobie Estrogen Bait, he could've matched Garrus for style.

[Christmas Ape]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
*snerk*
Man, and I harp on poor Carth and his dead wife fixation.  In terms of conversations said in-game, Thane probably talks more about Irikah than he does about FemShep.  Sad.  I did actually like Thane as a character, though I was more disappointed than anything at his wasted coolness potential.  Seriously, badass LEATHER CATSUIT NECKSNAPPING SPACE ASSASSIN.  And...saddled with enough angst to sink an oil tanker.  Maybe if he hadn't been Woobie Estrogen Bait, he could've matched Garrus for style.

Do you get paid every time you use that word or something?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
*snerk*
Man, and I harp on poor Carth and his dead wife fixation.  In terms of conversations said in-game, Thane probably talks more about Irikah than he does about FemShep.  Sad.  I did actually like Thane as a character, though I was more disappointed than anything at his wasted coolness potential.  Seriously, badass LEATHER CATSUIT NECKSNAPPING SPACE ASSASSIN.  And...saddled with enough angst to sink an oil tanker.  Maybe if he hadn't been Woobie Estrogen Bait, he could've matched Garrus for style.

Do you get paid every time you use that word or something?

I should be getting 6.5 kittens in the mail in a few weeks, though I'd rather get paid in frozen yogurt.  Alas, them's the breaks 

[Errationatus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Do you get paid every time you use that word or something?

"Woobie"?  Is that a Bioware thing?  Cause if they're paying for that, I can conjugate it:

Woobially, woobiessness, woobler, woobattica, woobietastical, woobicanonical, woobieterrifficasplendifirious.

Oh, and woobiecalifragislicstical.

It's a hell of a thing. 

I expect my cheque in the mail.

[Intensity Penguin]

Ashley. Wow. What an annoying person. She's xenophobic in the first game and in 2 when you find her she's like "Hi. Oh, you work with Cerberus? I hate you know, despite all that we went through" Why did BioWare bring her back in 2?? But apart from her, all ME's characters are really interesting and well written.

[V-rex]

Intensity Penguin wrote...

Ashley. Wow. What an annoying person.

I have to be honest here, I didn't find her annoying in the slightest, I liked her toughened attitude and the fact that she made jokes and quips from time to time, it gave her more personality. I mean if you ask me I found Liara more annoying (to begin with anyway) for playing off the role of the cute little damsel in distress.
(she gets better in later games though, I admit.)

She's xenophobic in the first game

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ashley isn't xenophobic, and if she is then she's nowhere near as bad as people make her out to be. Yes she is distrustful of the aliens as allies but not because she thinks they are inevitibly going to be the 'enemy' or because she thinks humanity is superior or anything like that. Basically her stance is that ultimatley if push comes to shove the aliens will always think of their own people first and therefore in an emergency situation might abandon humanity, hence humanity shouldn't rely on them.
She also has a grudge to be sure, but that's due to bad family history what with her grandfather going down in history as the one who surrendered Shanxi to the Turians and her family name being blacklisted as a result. Later on down the line, if the right dialogue is pursued she learns to accept that she can't blame the Council for that, but rather the Alliance and this in turn encourages her to be more open minded about working with aliens.

Also worth noting is that she happily volunteers to assist the Salarians on Virmire, despises the ideals of Terra Firma, doesn't think humanity is 'superior', is shown to have sympathies for the plight of the Quarians and demonstrates that ultimatley she does think of aliens and humans as equals.

and in 2 when you find her she's like "Hi. Oh, you work with Cerberus? I hate you know, despite all that we went through"

Actually she never says she hates Shepard, she actually says:
"I'd like to believe you Shepard but I don't trust Cerberus."

Plus she also leaves with the words 'Good luck' or 'Just... try to be careful.' (if romanced) which implies that she is angry and confused by the situation, not by Shepard.
Also, if romanced she, or Kaiden for that matter, send a message later apologizing for what they said.

So she actually still likes Shepard, just doesn't like Cerberus and doesn't like the fact that the Commander is now working for a terrorist cell that is the arch enemy of the army she served and that same army that the Commander once served alongside her. We call this action a 'betrayal' when you go from one army to another.

If you ask me, she had the right to be pissed.

Why did BioWare bring her back in 2??

Shockingly, there are people in the community who actually like her and managed to get past the flaws and like the actual character. Hell, I didn't particularly care for Tali in Mass Effect 1 and I didn't carry on because she came back in the second game and she had a much bigger role in the second game then Ashley did.
Given that she was like, barely in there it shouldn't bother you so much.

But apart from her, all ME's characters are really interesting and well written.

I'm actually going to go ahead and say that Ashley was quite well written, because she was a female character not made to be either a sexual or emotional fantasy for young males. She wasn't perfect and wasn't written with the mindset to be a nerd's dream girl but as a character in a story, I at least, found she worked quite well. She was likeable at points with her jokes and moments of compassion and tough determination but also had some very serious problems holding her back but the capacity to overcome those through the magic of 'character development'.

I'd take that over standard 'damsel in distress' any day of the week.

Modifié par V-rex, 02 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[achwas]

V-rex wrote...
So she actually still likes Shepard, just doesn't like Cerberus and doesn't like the fact that the Commander is now working for a terrorist cell that is the arch enemy of the army she served and that same army that the Commander once served alongside her. We call this action a 'betrayal' when you go from one army to another.

If you ask me, she had the right to be pissed.

 So she does take her own (often before proven to be misguided) opinion, sans proof and without even offering her erstwhile commander, nevermind possible fromer possible love-interest, the chance (!) to explain her reasoning and perceived change of heart ?  Who just saved her and half the colony's collective a**es from the collectors and subsequent processing into smoothies ?

Thank you very much, but that looks - to me at least - like  the distinctive mark of a narrow-minded, if not actually close minded "I am always right-anyway" type of character. Anyone with at least a tiny shred of decency or self-assessment and her own record at "not-being-right-about-things" would have had the grace to at least listen to Shepard, before jumping to judgemental condemnation. Ashley doesn't. congratulations, She lost a friend there and then.

Reminds me rather strongly of certain Turian council members who "dismiss those claims" without even bothering to check.  But I guess it's only dislikable if the Turians do it^^

As for her "after  the fact e-mail" - unlike Anderson, she didn't saw fit to write an e-mail and ask for an explanatory talk,nevermind inquiring into an alleged ressurection or state of health, before meeting up with Shepard, despite there being rumours around. Same situation as for Anderson, but different reaction

Feth, even the aliens, who might rightly be distrustful of Cerberus for far more valid reasons seem more reasonable and less childishly refusing  than Ashley or Kaiden there and then. Garrus, as a Turian, who have been attacked by Cerberus in most severe ways, puts the mission's goals over his own animosity. Ashely won't even ask about what Sehpard is doing.....

Really puts a damper on her character as developed in ME-1

Modifié par achwas, 02 novembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[V-rex]

achwas wrote...

V-rex wrote...
So she actually still likes Shepard, just doesn't like Cerberus and doesn't like the fact that the Commander is now working for a terrorist cell that is the arch enemy of the army she served and that same army that the Commander once served alongside her. We call this action a 'betrayal' when you go from one army to another.

If you ask me, she had the right to be pissed.

 So she does take her own (often before proven to be misguided) opinion, sans proof and without even offering her erstwhile commander, nevermind possible fromer possible love-interest, the chance (!) to explain her reasoning and perceived change of heart ?  Who just saved her and half the colony's collective a**es from the collectors and subsequent processing into smoothies ?

I'm going to express these points numerically:

1. It is a known fact that Cerberus has in the past done some very amoral and unforgivable things in the past (akuze, what happened to Jack, the bomb in the Migrant Fleet), so Ashley doesn't really need 'proof' to know that Cerberus is not good people.

2. She DOES GIVE SHEPARD A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN HIM/HERSELF. Shepard just sucks at it, with vague mentions of a 'mission' and 'being brought back' and 'affiliation with Cerberus'. Shepard had a chance to say something better to explain himself (i'm going to say himself in this context as it fits) but didn't take it. I partly blame the developers for not giving Shepard much dialogue that was actually worthwhile, everything about that scene seemed forced to go down that track.
The point is, it is really hard to say straightfacedly:
"I was resurrected in a secret project for the corporation famed as being the arch enemy of the army I once, and you currently, serve. They are in the right and I need their help and agree with them one hundred percent."
Without sounding kind of like a cross between a brainwashing victim and Benedict Arnold.

Plus, this encounter would be twice, maybe even three times more upsetting if this was a person you loved telling all this to you, especially after they show up two years later and great you with a 'hey' as if they've ben gone on holiday.

3. I get really sick of hearing people say how Shepard 'saved her and the colony from the Collectors' when you remember that the Illusive Man specifically made that colony a target for the Collectors in the first place. He dropped a link to the Alliance that lead Ashley to coming to Horizon, which lead the Collectors to arriving to try to in turn coax a rise out of Shepard.
So essentially, Shepard saved her life, unaware that it was his newfound allies that put her at risk in the first place and you find out after the mission about this which if you ask me leads a lot of Shepard's points moot. It's hard to argue that Cerberus is not the enemy when they are ready to go to exteme measures like that, without telling you about them.

Thank you very much, but that looks - to me at least - like  the distinctive mark of a narrow-minded, if not actually close minded "I am always right-anyway" type of character.

To me, it looks like someone having difficulty coming to terms with a sudden change in everything they've ever understood as reality and as a result, responding to it angrily.

Anyone with at least a tiny shred of decency or self-assessment and her own record at "not-being-right-about-things" would have had the grace to at least listen to Shepard, before jumping to judgemental condemnation. Ashley doesn't. congratulations, She lost a friend there and then.

Or, potentially, a person who had a strong opinion of someone once, two years ago, and is now shocked and surprised to see them working under the banner of a known terrorist organization. Like I  said, she does listen, she just has trouble believing. She gives him a chance to explain himself, he does a very Sh*tty job. After greeting her like he's been gone for a week on holiday and casually bringing up that he's with Cerberus:
"So yes, I'm with a terrorist organization now... pass the butter."

Of course she's going to react strongly.

Reminds me rather strongly of certain Turian council members who "dismiss those claims" without even bothering to check.  But I guess it's only dislikable if the Turians do it^^

... Relevance?

Are you implying that Ashley is somehow a hypocrite here? Because that's kind of silly. Ashley was there, she could verify the existence of the Reapers and the extent of the Geth Fleet risk because she was alongside Shepard at the time and the Alliance isn't a group famed for cartoonish super villany.
But here, Ashley is being confronted and expected to just suddenly believe on face value the words of someone who she only just realized is still alive, that a terrorist organization who once fed fifty marines and a whole colony to thresher maws and planted bombs in the migrant fleet is now hoping to save human colonies entirely out of the kindness of their hearts and that, in turn, the Alliance is now considered untrustworthy.

Thing is, the Council repeatedly ignored or disregarded Shepard's warnings, Ashley only did it once after being put into an extreme situation and confronted with a lot of emotional pressure and new conflicting view points.

Also there is a very special level of hell designated to people who use little triangles as smiling eyes when they are being obnoxious. You just bought a one way ticket.
(kidding)

As for her "after  the fact e-mail" - unlike Anderson, she didn't see fit to write an e-mail and ask for an explanatory talk,nevermind inquiring into an alleged ressurection or state of health, before meeting up with Shepard, despite there being rumours around. Same situation as for Anderson, but different reaction

Well, the main and most obvious reason as to why she didn't email you or try to contact you was because she didn't freaking know you were alive. Why on earth would such highly classified information go to a low ranking soldier, especially when there wasn't any real solid evidence at the time? Eventually she finds out about this whole thing thanks to a tip (by the Illusive man as part of his elaborate DEATH TRAP thank you very much) and that's when the idea crosses her head.
Also, it goes both ways. If you are allowed to ask why she didn't contact you based on a tiny unconfirmed report/rumor that you are alive then why didn't you contact her when you got the chance after getting the new Normandy? Why didn't you try to reconnect with the Alliance and why didn't you make sure she was okay?

She does say that she went to Anderson but he wouldn't talk, and so she went looking herself (implying that she was looking for Shepard or at least was entertaining thoughts of him being alive). The only time she gets to communicate with him properly is when they meet on Horizon, where it is finally confirmed that he is alive and, like she was dreading, he is now working for Cerberus.

She went to Horizon in the hope to see Shepard alive, knowing she was putting herself at risk to do so, and then she finds him and her hopes (prayers even) are answered when she sees him, only to then be crushed when she sees that he really is working with Cerberus.
Seriously, that's a lot of emotional baggage to have thrown at you and while you may get preachy I really don't think any one of us would handle this situation any differently.

Seriously, someone you admired or even loved disappears after a tragic disaster, you spend two years in grief and then they come back suddenly working for the arch enemy of everything you've ever stood for.

However, she does apologize. Admitting that she understands why he's working with Cerberus and saying that via loyalty ties she can't go where he's going but she can still wish him luck. This kind of utterly negates every point you made about her being an unapologetic type who always thinks she's right. Point is if she sends an email, it's because she loves Shepard. Enough to apologize for what she says, explain her position on things and let you know that the anger has passed.
She understands the Collector mission and understands the circumstances. That's all she should bring up, no need to mention the resurrection or any of that kind of stuff.

Yes, it peeves me off greatly for the fact that it's just an email. But I blame not the character for that, I blame the writing staff for not giving her anything good. A voice mail or video mail would be nice, or hell even a second scene where they meet up and talk normally after Horizon. But those weren't the cards I was dealt so I deal with what I was given.
As it stands, the email was like a letter. Saying that she is somewhere out there but can't be with Shepard right now. It adds a nice level of tension to the romance, I'll give it that.

Feth, even the aliens, who might rightly be distrustful of Cerberus for far more valid reasons seem more reasonable and less childishly refusing  than Ashley or Kaiden there and then. Garrus, as a Turian, who have been attacked by Cerberus in most severe ways, puts the mission's goals over his own animosity. Ashely won't even ask about what Sehpard is doing.....

The Alliance and Cerberus have been arch enemies since the two factions were established. That kind of long lasting blood fued makes every other issue pale in comparison, Ashley is a die hard loyalist to the Alliance, always has been and always will be. Hence she isn't about to give everything up, especially given that she vocally opposes, quite strongly, the ideals of Cerberus.

Plus if you remember right, Garrus was a lawless viglante with no loyalties and no place to go, hence the mission was kind of the only shot he had. Similarly Tali doesn't join up right away if you remember correctly, she joins later having had considerable time to think about things.
Ashley doesn't really get that, she just gets confronted.

Thing is, Wrex doesn't join up either, nor does Liara. No one ever condemns them for it. Ashley has a duty to the Alliance, hence she wasn't able to go with Shepard. The only difference is that she has a negative response to the precedings, so people are able to look past the obvious holes in their logic, namely condemning Ashley and Kaiden for not 'thinking of the mission' and not even paying any attention to the other two.

Really puts a damper on her character as developed in ME-1

I agree with this, part of the problem is that since she has the potential to be killed off in Mass Effect 1 her role in the next story is forced to be reduced and can't be as important. It feels like kind of a waste of potential here.

Just to be clear I am pissed off greatly about how Horizon played out, but I don't blame the character for that, I just blame the fact that I was dealt such a crappy hand.

[Chignon]

achwas wrote...

 So she does take her own (often before proven to be misguided) opinion, sans proof and without even offering her erstwhile commander, nevermind possible fromer possible love-interest, the chance (!) to explain her reasoning and perceived change of heart ?  Who just saved her and half the colony's collective a**es from the collectors and subsequent processing into smoothies ?

I'm sorry, but I think you are confusing Ash's character with Bioware Railroading™.  The same goes for Kaidan.

Bioware is not giving either Shepard and Ash/Kaidan the chance to sit down and talk like two grown up individuals. Considering all they've shared, what they went through together and Shepard's sudden loss of eloquence ("Hi, how've you been?" just doesn't cut it, sorry), this is vastly OOC.

achwas wrote...

Really puts a damper on her character as developed in ME-1

I completely agree with that.

Modifié par Chignon, 02 novembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[SquigglyElf]

I think the character I don't like most, would have to be Miranda.I don't have a big elaborate reason for this dislike, but I think that it's the fact that every other shot of Miranda, is of her behind. The outfit looks like it could have the biggest wedgie ever. Maybe as a femshep, they could change some camera angles off her rear, or something, I don't know... It just feels kind of forced. I like nice butts as much as everyone, but sometimes it's too much butt.



Following shortly after Miranda would be Jacob. I don't like how after talking to him once, Femshep had definitely isn't subtle as she starts flirting with him. She just kind of jumps in there.



Then there's Tali and Liara, who I just kind of find annoying at times. Although after LotSB I found Liara a bit more tolerable.



They're not much for reasons, but those are my reasons for not liking these characters... Everybody else I can tolerate, some more than others, but these characters just kind of irk me. XD

[achwas]

[quote]V-rex wrote...
2. She DOES GIVE SHEPARD A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN HIM/HERSELF. Shepard just sucks at it, with vague mentions of a 'mission' and 'being brought back' and 'affiliation with Cerberus'. Shepard had a chance to say something better to explain himself (i'm going to say himself in this context as it fits) but didn't take it. I partly blame the developers for not giving Shepard much dialogue that was actually worthwhile, everything about that scene seemed forced to go down that track.
The point is, it is really hard to say straightfacedly:
"I was resurrected in a secret project for the corporation famed as being the arch enemy of the army I once, and you currently, serve. They are in the right and I need their help and agree with them one hundred percent."
Without sounding kind of like a cross between a brainwashing victim and Benedict Arnold.
[/quote]

Oh really - well, in my talk after the horizon mission, she interrupts me, rudely,  when I try to point out I may have reasons. Before Shepard even gets to explain said reasons. Than she storms off.
Afterwards writing an apologetic e-mail.



[quote]V-rex wrote...
Plus, this encounter would be twice, maybe even three times more upsetting if this was a person you loved telling all this to you, especially after they show up two years later and great you with a 'hey' as if they've ben gone on holiday.
[/quote]
A person you were aware of being ressurected, but did not care about enough to even try to contact. Not that a dead Shepard had much to say about who might be trying to ressurect him/her in the first place.
This is so utterly illogical a reaction by the Virmire survivor,, especially for an allegedly grieving LI, that it is almost funny.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
3. I get really sick of hearing people say how Shepard 'saved her and the colony from the Collectors' when you remember that the Illusive Man specifically made that colony a target for the Collectors in the first place. He dropped a link to the Alliance that lead Ashley to coming to Horizon, which lead the Collectors to arriving to try to in turn coax a rise out of Shepard.
So essentially, Shepard saved her life, unaware that it was his newfound allies that put her at risk in the first place and you find out after the mission about this which if you ask me leads a lot of Shepard's points moot. It's hard to argue that Cerberus is not the enemy when they are ready to go to exteme measures like that, without telling you about them.
[/quote]
Another case of broken logic. Shepard is unawre that Cerberus has tweaked the cards by making Horizon an attractive target. But the same is true of the Virmire Survivor. At the time of the talk, and Ashley/Kaiden refusing to listen to Shepard's points regarding cooperation with Cerberus, neither knows any better. So trying to gloss over one's decision with some 20/20 hindsight is just sad. Nevermind that because of Horizon, Shepard actually in the end defeats the collectors, so of course, with Hindsight he/she  would be right as well.

In result,, one cannot really play that card to blame Shepard, and of course she (or Kaiden ) doesn't. And even than, it might be argued, that with TIM's tweaking actually the best chance to save some colonists was picked, because of Horizon being trusted with defense technology by the Alliance and with Shepard being send to ambush the Collectors there.  Any other, totally random colony would have been a total loss. So, which is actually worse ? If in doubt, settle for the lesser evil

Oh, nevermind, that Ashely/Kaidan could just have retired from active millitary special-ops service or refused this particular  mission but instead placed themselves in harm's way.
[quote]V-rex wrote...

To me, it looks like someone having difficulty coming to terms with a sudden change in everything they've ever understood as reality and as a result, responding to it angrily.
[/quote]

Yeah., as if that has never happened to Ashely/Kaiden before, especially when Shepard is around. A little more trust from one's former team-mates would seem natural. Also, both Tali  (with a clear and reasoned anti-Cerberus bias) or Liara reacted less.... stand-offish.


[quote]V-rex wrote...
[quote]Anyone with at least a tiny shred of decency or self-assessment and her own record at "not-being-right-about-things" would have had the grace to at least listen to Shepard, before jumping to judgemental condemnation. Ashley doesn't. congratulations, She lost a friend there and then.[/quote]

Or, potentially, a person who had a strong opinion of someone once, two years ago, and is now shocked and surprised to see them working under the banner of a known terrorist organization. Like I  said, she does listen, she just has trouble believing. She gives him a chance to explain himself, he does a very Sh*tty job. After greeting her like he's been gone for a week on holiday and casually bringing up that he's with Cerberus:
"So yes, I'm with a terrorist organization now... pass the butter."

Of course she's going to react strongly.
[/quote]
So Shepard is to blame for being rudely interrupted by her ? Because AFAIK, she (or Kaiden) never asked "please tell my why you work for Cerberus !". Or anything like it. She rather obviously prefers not to disturb her made-up mind. Incidentally furthering the gap between Shepard and the Alliance who obviously would rather not listen to the truth, because the source is unpopular. Nevermind that the Aliiance has it's own shares of out-of-control experiments like the Hannibal V.I.... reminds me of the old saying concerning motes in other people's eyes...

Which is... bigoted, because she of course demeands understanding and endorsement of  her point of view, without even deigning to consider Shepards at all. And when Shepard call's her on it with "you are treacting too emotional" there is not a second of reflection, just defensive persistence. That's the narrow-minded attitudes that has caused far too many wars in the last five centuries in an age, where, due to the advance of reason, humanity should have known better.

And you really wonder why one would dislike her ?


[quote]V-rex wrote...
[quote]Reminds me rather strongly of certain Turian council members who "dismiss those claims" without even bothering to check.  But I guess it's only dislikable if the Turians do it^^[/quote]... Relevance?
[/quote]
Ahh, I see, if the council ignores Sheparad's reasoning everyone agrees they are deluded fools, not worth saving (but sometimes saved nevertheless) or even to be taken serious.
If Ashely Williams does not listen, she is "entitled to her view", and there being not a single reson to dislike her....

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Are you implying that Ashley is somehow a hypocrite here? Because that's kind of silly. Ashley was there, she could verify the existence of the Reapers and the extent of the Geth Fleet risk because she was alongside hepard at the time and the Alliance isn't a group famed for cartoonish super villany.
But here, Ashley is being confronted and expected to just suddenly believe on face value the words of someone who she only just realized is still alive, that a terrorist organization who once fed fifty marines and a whole colony to thresher maws and planted bombs in the migrant fleet is now hoping to save human colonies entirely out of the kindness of their hearts and that, in turn, the Alliance is now considered untrustworthy.
[/quote]
Yes, she is an utter hippocrite.
She has known and served close to Shepard for the entirity of ME-1. She, and her view of Aliens, the galaxy and assessment of situations are repeatedly proven wrong throughout ME-1. By Shepard.
So it is the same Shepard, who now claims that - while not endorsing Cerebrus Message of human pre-dominance to be right - Cerberus warnings about the Reaper threat not being over and Cerberus due to the Alliance's powermongering being the sole available, if unlikely ally at the moment, I do expect from an old  friend and former comrade-in-arms that she will actually listen to my reasoning.
If she has factual objections, they will be heard and considered . But I expect the same privilege the other way round.
Ashely is unwilling to consent to this, much as the council, who ignores any unpopular findings from the missions they send Shepard on.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Also there is a very special level of hell designated to people who use little triangles as smiling eyes when they are being obnoxious. You just bought a one way ticket.
(kidding)
[/quote]
How dare you squander my hopes !

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Well, the main and most obvious reason as to why she didn't email you or try to contact you was because she didn't freaking know you were alive. Why on earth would such highly classified information go to a low ranking soldier, especially when there wasn't any real solid evidence at the time? Eventually she finds out about this whole thing thanks to a tip (by the Illusive man as part of his elaborate DEATH TRAP thank you very much) and that's when the idea crosses her head.
Also, it goes both ways. If you are allowed to ask why she didn't contact you based on a tiny unconfirmed report/rumor that you are alive then why didn't you contact her when you got the chance after getting the new Normandy? Why didn't you try to reconnect with the Alliance and why didn't you make sure she was okay?
[/quote]
Her personel file is highly classified, so she is far from a "simple soldier" anymore. I 'd rather suepct her being a human spectre, or at least getting groomed for that role. Hence she would have inside access and information, and in all likelihood be close to either Anderson and/or Admiral Hackett. She is after all the right hand woman of the legendar late Commander Shepard.
Anderson knows, and as the LotSB files reveal, so does Admrial hackett and other branches of the Alliance millitary.It is hard to believe that noone contacted her or even interviewed her on her take of Shepard now working for Cerberus. I also seem to remember that she claims "she didn't believe the rumours to be true", but would have to check... but implying she heard of it. She obviously did not think it feasible to drop Liara a call either, who could have explained wide parts of the situation at the rop of a hat ?

[quote]V-rex wrote...
She does say that she went to Anderson but he wouldn't talk, and so she went looking herself (implying that she was looking for Shepard or at least was entertaining thoughts of him being alive). The only time she gets to communicate with him properly is when they meet on Horizon, where it is finally confirmed that he is alive and, like she was dreading, he is now working for Cerberus.
[/quote]
hmm, the emails from Shepards mother reach him/her quite fine trhough the interweb ? Surely Ashley should be be able of the same effort ? And talking to Anderson only confirms my point f her knowing but not caring enough

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Seriously, someone you admired or even loved disappears after a tragic disaster, you spend two years in grief and then they come back suddenly working for the arch enemy of everything you've ever stood for.
[/quote]
Same for Liara. Totally different, much more reasoned reaction. Same for Tali, with even better reason to hate you. Much more nuanced and thoughtful reaction. Chakwas ? Even quit alliance service and applied with cerberus on the off-chance Lazarus would succeed.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
However, she does apologize. Admitting that she understands why he's working with Cerberus and saying that via loyalty ties she can't go where he's going but she can still wish him luck. This kind of utterly negates every point you made about her being an unapologetic type who always thinks she's right. Point is if she sends an email, it's because she loves Shepard. Enough to apologize for what she says, explain her position on things and let you know that the anger has passed.
[/quote]
So much for friendship and/or even love. Totally wimpy reaction, especially after not even listenming to Shepard but condemning wholesale and on circumstantial evidence.
To my mind, the sort of "fair-weather-only" friendship  (and My shepard) can very well do without.



[quote]V-rex wrote...
The Alliance and Cerberus have been arch enemies since the two factions were established. That kind of long lasting blood fued makes every other issue pale in comparison, Ashley is a die hard loyalist to the Alliance, always has been and always will be. Hence she isn't about to give everything up, especially given that she vocally opposes, quite strongly, the ideals of Cerberus.
[/quote]
The entire "arch-enemy" talk is so much empty air and bogus talks in the context of ME-2 , when you can actually dock in Alliance controlled or allied space and not even be hassled by security. When you can actually walk up to the Aliiance Counsel and talk to him, with known Cereberus agents at your side, without any hassle, questions raised or even security queries. It really makes you wonder about some of that PR-spin on alleged Cerberus activities and "responsibility" in ME-1.
I will not indulge in the Alliance + Cerberus  conspiracy theories on these forums, but they certainly bear some consideration. At least the conflict betwwen Blood Pact, Eclipse and Blue Suns seemed far more intense and real than Alliance prosecution of Cerberus crimes and activity.
Nevermind that even the Turians, Batarians, Volus, Aasari and Salarians seem to have no qualms talkingto agents of that "anti-Alien, pro-Humanity" organisation.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Plus if you remember right, Garrus was a lawless viglante with no loyalties and no place to go, hence the mission was kind of the only shot he had. Similarly Tali doesn't join up right away if you remember correctly, she joins later having had considerable time to think about things.
Ashley doesn't really get that, she just gets confronted.
[/quote]
Garrus could have walked away or decided to quit from the moment he woke up. Tali only joined after horizon, because on Freedom's Progress he had a mission to finish and would not serve two masters at once. Neither delayed because they distrusted your judgement or because Cerberus agents accompanied you.
*shrug*

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Thing is, Wrex doesn't join up either, nor does Liara. No one ever condemns them for it. Ashley has a duty to the Alliance, hence she wasn't able to go with Shepard.
[/quote]
Both have bigger fish to fry. Wrex tries to save the Korgan species, which is a lifetime undertaking. Liara is hunting down the Shadowbroker, as we know since the LotSB DLC, to save her friend Feron. BTW, a good example of true and loyal friendship, ashely might want to take notes..
And after LotSB, she too has a larger job to fill than just serve as a squaddie on the SR-2. I'd rather have her controlling the SB network, than as my LI on the Normandy. Especially as it means she is rather safely out of the line of fire.
Ashley on the other hand is still a commando, and not in charge of any number of soldiers or civillians with their lives depending on her staying with them. She might even help the Alliance by gaining valuable inside information of Cerberus by joining up with Shepard, or at least keeping track of the Cerberus effort. Seeing Admiral Hackett and/or Counsellor Anderson agree to this line of reasoning is not a major leap of faith. But she... does not.


[quote]V-rex wrote...
I agree with this, part of the problem is that since she has the potential to be killed off in Mass Effect 1 her role in the next story is forced to be reduced and can't be as important. It feels like kind of a waste of potential here.

Just to be clear I am pissed off greatly about how Horizon played out, but I don't blame the character for that, I just blame the fact that I was dealt such a crappy hand.
[/quote]
Yeah, but the characters as we know them are defined by their interactionas implemented. Say, like Thane. I like the general concept, I like the voice acting, but am deeply  p****ed off by the way he is implemented, or rather written. I am not going to be taken in by an allegedly possible reaction of a character which he/she never actually shows. There are a lot of people defending Jack and pointing to a lot of unimplemented text and scenes. Stuff that does not get implemented does not actually become part of the character as conceived by Bioware, IMHO.

And Ashley, to my reasoning, blew all sympathies she kept from ME-1 away by being such an utterly narrow-minded, short tempered and trustless .....sod..... on Horizon.

[Chignon]

[quote]achwas wrote...
Oh really - well, in my talk after the horizon mission, she interrupts me, rudely,  when I try to point out I may have reasons. Before Shepard even gets to explain said reasons. Than she storms off.
Afterwards writing an apologetic e-mail.[/quote]

Reasons? The only reason your Shepard is able to give on Horizon is that Cerberus is the supposedly only organization trying to stop the Reapers. Which is even more shifty because as you find out TIM more or less orchestrated Horizon.

This is a result of Bioware slipping the idiot ball in the Alliance's pocket so Shepard can be justified working for Cerberus.

[quote]A person you were aware of being ressurected, but did not care about enough to even try to contact. Not that a dead Shepard had much to say about who might be trying to ressurect him/her in the first place.
This is so utterly illogical a reaction by the Virmire survivor,, especially for an allegedly grieving LI, that it is almost funny.[/quote]

They were, in fact, not aware of Shepard being resurrected. Kaidan and Ash state that they heard rumours that Shepard was alive and wanted to believe they were true, which implies that they didn't - no more, no less.

[quote]Another case of broken logic. Shepard is unawre that Cerberus has tweaked the cards by making Horizon an attractive target. But the same is true of the Virmire Survivor. At the time of the talk, and Ashley/Kaiden refusing to listen to Shepard's points regarding cooperation with Cerberus, neither knows any better. So trying to gloss over one's decision with some 20/20 hindsight is just sad. Nevermind that because of Horizon, Shepard actually in the end defeats the collectors, so of course, with Hindsight he/she  would be right as well.
In result,, one cannot really play that card to blame Shepard, and of course she (or Kaiden ) doesn't. And even than, it might be argued, that with TIM's tweaking actually the best chance to save some colonists was picked, because of Horizon being trusted with defense technology by the Alliance and with Shepard being send to ambush the Collectors there.  Any other, totally random colony would have been a total loss. So, which is actually worse ? If in doubt, settle for the lesser evil.[/quote]

Did you play ME1 and see what Cerberus did? Kaidan and Ash don't need to know about Cerberus orchestrating Horizon in order to be weary, shocked and feeling betrayed by Shepard working with/for them.



[quote]Oh, nevermind, that Ashely/Kaidan could just have retired from active millitary special-ops service or refused this particular  mission but instead placed themselves in harm's way.[/quote]

They are marines in a leading position; they can't just refuse a mission for no good reason. And it's more or less their job to "place themselves in harm's way".



[quote]Yeah., as if that has never happened to Ashely/Kaiden before, especially when Shepard is around. A little more trust from one's former team-mates would seem natural.[/quote]

Really? I must have missed it - Shepard died, got resurrected and worked for Cerberus before?

[quote]So Shepard is to blame for being rudely interrupted by her ? Because AFAIK, she (or Kaiden) never asked "please tell my why you work for Cerberus !". Or anything like it. She rather obviously prefers not to disturb her made-up mind. Incidentally furthering the gap between Shepard and the Alliance who obviously would rather not listen to the truth, because the source is unpopular. Nevermind that the Aliiance has it's own shares of out-of-control experiments like the Hannibal V.I.... reminds me of the old saying concerning motes in other people's eyes...

Which is... bigoted, because she of course demeands understanding and endorsement of  her point of view, without even deigning to consider Shepards at all. And when Shepard call's her on it with "you are treacting too emotional" there is not a second of reflection, just defensive persistence. That's the narrow-minded attitudes that has caused far too many wars in the last five centuries in an age, where, due to the advance of reason, humanity should have known better.

And you really wonder why one would dislike her ?[/quote]

First off, it's Kaidan. With an "a". Secondly,  the Hannibal VI wasn't an experiment, it was a VI that had gone rogue on an Alliance training ground.

So Shepard gets to call Ash/Kaidan out on being "emotional", which they have every right to be after seeing their friend/lover after two years of believing him/her dead, but they don't get to call Shepard out on working with one of the enemies in ME1, Cerberus?

[quote]Ahh, I see, if the council ignores Sheparad's reasoning everyone agrees they are deluded fools, not worth saving (but sometimes saved nevertheless) or even to be taken serious.
If Ashely Williams does not listen, she is "entitled to her view", and there being not a single reson to dislike her....
[/quote]

You compare two very different things that can't be compared. The Council glosses over the fact that Reapers exist; Ash/Kaidan is simply calling Shepard out on working with Cerberus and consequently refusing to join him/her.

[quote]Yes, she is an utter hippocrite.
She has known and served close to Shepard for the entirity of ME-1. She, and her view of Aliens, the galaxy and assessment of situations are repeatedly proven wrong throughout ME-1. By Shepard.
So it is the same Shepard, who now claims that - while not endorsing Cerebrus Message of human pre-dominance to be right - Cerberus warnings about the Reaper threat not being over and Cerberus due to the Alliance's powermongering being the sole available, if unlikely ally at the moment, I do expect from an old  friend and former comrade-in-arms that she will actually listen to my reasoning.
If she has factual objections, they will be heard and considered . But I expect the same privilege the other way round.
Ashely is unwilling to consent to this, much as the council, who ignores any unpopular findings from the missions they send Shepard on.[/quote]

As I wrote before: you can attribute that to Bioware's railroading. If they kept both Ash and Shepard in character, they would have talked. They owe each other at least that much.

[quote]Her personel file is highly classified, so she is far from a "simple soldier" anymore. I 'd rather suepct her being a human spectre, or at least getting groomed for that role. Hence she would have inside access and information, and in all likelihood be close to either Anderson and/or Admiral Hackett. She is after all the right hand woman of the legendar late Commander Shepard.
Anderson knows, and as the LotSB files reveal, so does Admrial hackett and other branches of the Alliance millitary.It is hard to believe that noone contacted her or even interviewed her on her take of Shepard now working for Cerberus. I also seem to remember that she claims "she didn't believe the rumours to be true", but would have to check... but implying she heard of it. She obviously did not think it feasible to drop Liara a call either, who could have explained wide parts of the situation at the rop of a hat ?[/quote]

She also says that Anderson "stone-walled" her, if you recall. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be.



[quote]hmm, the emails from Shepards mother reach him/her quite fine trhough the interweb ? Surely Ashley should be be able of the same effort ? And talking to Anderson only confirms my point f her knowing but not caring enough[/quote]

See above - she didn't know you were alive. After Horizon, she does write you a message. And what point about talking to Anderson confirmed which one of your points?



[quote]Same for Liara. Totally different, much more reasoned reaction. Same for Tali, with even better reason to hate you. Much more nuanced and thoughtful reaction. Chakwas ? Even quit alliance service and applied with cerberus on the off-chance Lazarus would succeed.[/quote]

Liara had access to information, Kaidan or Ashley never had. Tali has completed her missions and is free to go with you if she chose to. And lastly, Chakwas couldn't stand the life on a ground military station and decided to join Cerberus.

It is unfair to compare the situations of so vastly different characters who are in very different situations.

[quote]So much for friendship and/or even love. Totally wimpy reaction, especially after not even listenming to Shepard but condemning wholesale and on circumstantial evidence.
To my mind, the sort of "fair-weather-only" friendship  (and My shepard) can very well do without.[/quote]

Ash/Kaidan doesn't condemn Shepard to anything. She simply stands up for her/his beliefs and decides to not join Shepard because of more than circumstantial evidence. Shepard is working with Cerberus, s/he can even admit it - there's nothing cicumstanstial about it.

[quote]The entire "arch-enemy" talk is so much empty air and bogus talks in the context of ME-2 , when you can actually dock in Alliance controlled or allied space and not even be hassled by security. When you can actually walk up to the Aliiance Counsel and talk to him, with known Cereberus agents at your side, without any hassle, questions raised or even security queries. It really makes you wonder about some of that PR-spin on alleged Cerberus activities and "responsibility" in ME-1.
I will not indulge in the Alliance + Cerberus  conspiracy theories on these forums, but they certainly bear some consideration. At least the conflict betwwen Blood Pact, Eclipse and Blue Suns seemed far more intense and real than Alliance prosecution of Cerberus crimes and activity.
Nevermind that even the Turians, Batarians, Volus, Aasari and Salarians seem to have no qualms talkingto agents of that "anti-Alien, pro-Humanity" organisation.[/quote]

You have to see ME2 in context with ME1 - it isn't called a trilogy for nothing. You can't put the blame of the things you've listed on Ash and Kaidan. They don't control the Alliance and aren't personally responsible for their actions.

Alleged? Once again, did you even play ME1 and did all the Cerberus related missions?

[quote]Garrus could have walked away or decided to quit from the moment he woke up. Tali only joined after horizon, because on Freedom's Progress he had a mission to finish and would not serve two masters at once. Neither delayed because they distrusted your judgement or because Cerberus agents accompanied you.
*shrug*[/quote]

And where would he have gone after quitting? Garrus doesn't really have anywhere to go.

[quote]Both have bigger fish to fry. Wrex tries to save the Korgan species, which is a lifetime undertaking. Liara is hunting down the Shadowbroker, as we know since the LotSB DLC, to save her friend Feron. BTW, a good example of true and loyal friendship, ashely might want to take notes..
And after LotSB, she too has a larger job to fill than just serve as a squaddie on the SR-2. I'd rather have her controlling the SB network, than as my LI on the Normandy. Especially as it means she is rather safely out of the line of fire.
Ashley on the other hand is still a commando, and not in charge of any number of soldiers or civillians with their lives depending on her staying with them. She might even help the Alliance by gaining valuable inside information of Cerberus by joining up with Shepard, or at least keeping track of the Cerberus effort. Seeing Admiral Hackett and/or Counsellor Anderson agree to this line of reasoning is not a major leap of faith. But she... does not.[/quote]

And who says Ash and Kaidan don't have a "bigger fish to fry"? We don't know what they are doing after Horizon. They might have their own agenda that we know nothing about.

And why should they take that leap of faith? Shepard turns up on Horion after being dead for two years, going "How've you been? I'm working with Cerberus." - for all they knew, Shepard could have been a Cerberus agent all along or even a clone. All those options are more likely than Shepard being resurrected. Even moreso if s/he's the only person so far that we know got resurrected. It's a bit of a stretch to believe that.

You are also contradicting yourself. You just wrote that her file is highly classified and therefore she could be more than a simple soldier.

Modifié par Chignon, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .