531 réponses à ce sujet

[Saremei]

I cannot understand the dislike of Ashley. Easily the deepest, most real character in ME1. People say she's a bigot. I say that makes me like her more. I despise the "appease everyone" political correct BS that everyone spews. She's easily the best team member in ME1 while fighting.



Myself, I hate really only one team member of either mass effect game and that is Jack. Utterly despisable personality and ultimately not a character I found particularly useful.

[Collider]

Whine Effect 2

Modifié par Collider, 03 novembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[tonnactus]

Saremei wrote...
 She's easily the best team member in ME1 while fighting.

On normal maybee...

[Rads GN006]

For the most part i really like most of the characters especially the ones from ME2 except from jack oh yeah i hate her >.> on the plus side Miranda makes up for it by being a decent human on board the Normandy (yes she is a decent person and not annoying, shes all business and a lil arrogant for liek the first convo's but after that she becomes a really likable character) but the character i hate the most........... UDINA!!!!!! bastard politician must die >.> (gotta say it made my day when on the Shadow Brokers videos Anderson punches him a frikin good'n!!!!!

[GracefulChicken]

No, mrsph, I dont disagree with that (I'd quote, but my blackberry doesnt let me, and thats what Im posting from). I disagree with how she handled it and how she cant put her dad's reputation into perspective when the entire galaxy is at stake. I'd defend my dad too, but I'd understand if someone wanted him to take the blame (posthumously, nonetheless) for something he actually did that was terrible by my society's standards, especially when my ass is on the line, and especially again if someone else went out of their way to prove my innocence on the matter. Instead, when you save her from exile and total humiliation by her culture at the cost of her deceased father's reputation (who was specifically trying to avoid that situation), she refuses to speak with you the rest of the mission and yells at you (as much as she can "yell" with that atrocious voice). You'd think doing what her father wanted would be a priority to her, especially when it benefits her, but she doesn't. She actually dislikes you for carrying out her dad's wishes.

[AmyBA]

GracefulChicken wrote...

No, mrsph, I dont disagree with that (I'd quote, but my blackberry doesnt let me, and thats what Im posting from). I disagree with how she handled it and how she cant put her dad's reputation into perspective when the entire galaxy is at stake. I'd defend my dad too, but I'd understand if someone wanted him to take the blame (posthumously, nonetheless) for something he actually did that was terrible by my society's standards, especially when my ass is on the line, and especially again if someone else went out of their way to prove my innocence on the matter. Instead, when you save her from exile and total humiliation by her culture at the cost of her deceased father's reputation (who was specifically trying to avoid that situation), she refuses to speak with you the rest of the mission and yells at you (as much as she can "yell" with that atrocious voice). You'd think doing what her father wanted would be a priority to her, especially when it benefits her, but she doesn't. She actually dislikes you for carrying out her dad's wishes.

Unfortunately there are people who do this kind of irrational crap in real life. I've seen on the news and have read various accounts on family members of criminals, like rapists and child molestors, murderers, who defend those people to the end. They tarnishing their own name to protect the criminal. They will even oust there own family members and dearest friends, never speaking to them again if they are willing to go against them.

While we know and can say its ridiculous, some people who are otherwise completely rational do irrational and ignorant things because of family.

I honestly like Tali, but was myself disappointed and not very happy with the way she was reacting over her father and the geth situation, but I could also understand it because of how close-knit and closed off her society is, how important it is for them to be apart of it.

TS2Aggie wrote...

In Tali's defense, she is a). young, .
immature, c). overly emotional, d). not a soldier, and e). has been
taught from birth to hate and despise the Geth, given an extremely
slanted version of how things went down.

As for someone I don't
like? Female Shepard when I want her to casually chat up Jacob. I don't
want to seduce him, I just want to talk to him, get to know him a little
better and not in the biblical sense.

I agreed with this! UGH! Drives me crazy, lol. I feel so dirty everytime I need to speak to him... Makes my skin crawl a bit.


As for characters I do not like:

Ashley Williams: I don't think Ashley is a bigot or a xenophobe. Unreasonable and close minded, probably a bit irrational? Yes. I think her tough girl with a romantic heart image is a bit cliche, and grates my nerves. The whole poetry reading thing was really annoying. She really says some of the most out of place and inappropraite jokes sometimes, and gets offended way too easy (b*tching at Kaidan when he makes a comment in Choras den for example). I really was caught off guard my first ME1 playthrough, when after recruiting Liara, Ashley make a very rude and somewhat mean comment towards Liara. It is after you suggest that Liara is a very honest and yet very shy person. Ashley thinks that is funny and wants to take advantage of it to tease her, and in a very mocking and haughty tone says "Want me to ask about her sex life? Might be illuminating."
This just seemed really out of line.

Jack: Jack was also MUCH too cliche with the bad girl attitude. Yea, she swears a lot, a lot of people have mentioned it and some think its a silly reason to not like her. But its the same way in real life. I have a friend who goes on rants occasionally and starts swearing every other word, after a few minutes I get annoyed and tell him to shut the hell up. Same with Jack, its just damn annoying to hear it so much, like they can't find any other appropriate words. She also plays the victim way too much. Shes had it rough, shes been through a lot, but has no respect for others who have also had hard lives. She thinks shes the only person in the world whos had it bad and is entitled to complain. She goes off on anyone else at all in the game who gets upset about something and voices it, yet she is always upset and ranting about something herself.

Jacob: I don't hate Jacob exactly, but he is hard to get interested in. I was pretty disappointed with his loyalty mission. Here he has a chance to really show some emotion and life, to get pissed and go off on his father who was never there, his father who has been trapped on this planet playing king and abusing people, and he barely even raises his voice to him. Once you get on the ship afterwards and try to talk to him about it, he just shrugs and says "Whatever, its over, lets move on." and thats it... I was like "wtf?" And just ignored Jacob from there on out.

As for characters I surprisingly grew to like...

Miranda: I agree she is over sexualized, it does tick me off and I would have liked better camera angles for when she is around. Her inital attitude it pretty daunting. But I grew to kind of respect her. Her snobby attitude and talking about her perfection aggravated me initally, but I began to realize that she isnt doing this to brag, its honestly how she really was MADE. She was genetically altered against her will by her "father" to be and look PERFECT, to be a tool and nothing more. Obviously shes had time to accept it and get over it (for the most part), she can't undo what he did and it has became apart of her. I like the fact that shes stern and doesn't jump into any decision. She has a lot of tact when she wants to as well. That said, I didn't like romancing her or anything close to it when I played my maleshep. I enjoyed creating more of a friendly bond with her as my femshep.

Zaeed: I didn't really like him my first two playthroughs. For one he wasnt as useful to me (I went through as a soldier the first two times). But he also came off as way to crass and pushy, didn't seem to think anything through, and the lack of a real option to converse with him was a put off. But when I went through as my sentinel and tech and decided to use him, I grew to enjoy his attitude much more. He is indeed very brash, and goes head first into any situation. But learning more about him and what hes been through, discovering that he took the suicide mission because of the fact he wanted to die, you start to understand why he was so reckless in his mission to get Vido. You also start to realize he can have a heart when he feels like it, that he isnt entirely cold and uncaring. He has some great banter during missions, and good insight to the happenings around the squad.

Modifié par AmyBA, 03 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Kronner]

mrsph wrote...

The evidence also proves to be so viotile that it is causing ships to leave the Migrant Fleet. Shepard has essentially doomed hundreds or thousands of quarians to death because they cannot survive without the rest of the fleet.

Tali's reaction is pretty justified in that she doesn't want to talk to Shepard anymore (which is one of the reasons I like Tali. She is the only character whose loyalty cannot be persuaded back if you betray her. Not counting Thane and Samara since failing their loyalty missions is more "I'm dumb")

That is not true. They chose to leave themselves.

Shepard did exactly what he was asked to do - find out what happened, and present the evidence to the admirals. The fact that Tali can't handle it only proves that she should not be on the Normandy at all. Her father is a monster and gets a free pass just because Tali is his daughter? That's just not right.<_<

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Saremei wrote...

I cannot understand the dislike of Ashley. Easily the deepest, most real character in ME1. People say she's a bigot. I say that makes me like her more. I despise the "appease everyone" political correct BS that everyone spews. She's easily the best team member in ME1 while fighting.

Myself, I hate really only one team member of either mass effect game and that is Jack. Utterly despisable personality and ultimately not a character I found particularly useful.

Funny, of all the ME2 characters I found Jack to be the deepest. Very subtle lines of dialog and a general Not-What-She-Seems kind of person, and I didn't even romance her.

She surprises over and over again, bucking the Stereotype that Bioware cast her as.

EDIT: And I really can't understand people's complaint about her swearing. She does not swear that much, it makes no sense.  I found Aria's Don't F with me line to be much more unreasonable.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Collider wrote...
Whine Effect 2

HOW DARE YOU!

anyway,
1. I genuinely am not in love with Grunt because I find him a lesser being to Wrex.
2. Im not really in love with Kaiden because I found him too soft in his manner.
3. I dont like Zaaed because he really is just a merc and nothing more.

4. I was happy to see Donovan Hock eat lead because of the bull sh!t he was talking at the party

PS. I also found Jacks characterisation satisfying.

that is all.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[V-rex]

I had hoped this wouldn't need to happen, but it did. My rebuttal to your wall of text.


[quote]achwas wrote...

[quote]V-rex wrote...
2. She DOES GIVE SHEPARD A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN HIM/HERSELF. Shepard just sucks at it, with vague mentions of a 'mission' and 'being brought back' and 'affiliation with Cerberus'. Shepard had a chance to say something better to explain himself (i'm going to say himself in this context as it fits) but didn't take it. I partly blame the developers for not giving Shepard much dialogue that was actually worthwhile, everything about that scene seemed forced to go down that track.
The point is, it is really hard to say straightfacedly:
"I was resurrected in a secret project for the corporation famed as being the arch enemy of the army I once, and you currently, serve. They are in the right and I need their help and agree with them one hundred percent."
Without sounding kind of like a cross between a brainwashing victim and Benedict Arnold.
[/quote]

Oh really - well, in my talk after the horizon mission, she interrupts me, rudely,  when I try to point out I may have reasons. Before Shepard even gets to explain said reasons. Then she storms off.
Afterwards writing an apologetic e-mail.[/quote]

Shepard says that:
"You know I would only do this for the right reasons."
However this comes after saying:
"The Alliance turned its back on the Colonies, Cerberus is the only group willing to do anything."

Implying that your values might have changed and in turn what you now percieve as 'the right reasons' might be the wrong reasons, as Cerberus is notable for going against nearly everything the Alliance has ever stood for and had a history of amoral activity.
If someone told you that they were joining a shady corporation known for racially extremist actions and acts of terrorism and amoral experiments and said it was for 'the right reasons' I think you would probably storm away to.

I know I certainly would. Human beings are emotional creatures and sometimes they get aggressive in situations that are clearly upsetting to them.



[quote]V-rex wrote...
Plus, this encounter would be twice, maybe even three times more upsetting if this was a person you loved telling all this to you, especially after they show up two years later and great you with a 'hey' as if they've ben gone on holiday.
[/quote]
[quote]A person you were aware of being ressurected,[/quote]

EEEERRRRRRRNNNNNN!!!!

WRONG!!!!

Ashley was not in any way aware of Shepard's resurrection, nor the Lazarus project, nor Liara's mission to recover the body or any of the political and corporate details behind Shepard's return. To the best of her knowledge Shepard was listed as 'missing in action' after the Normandy blew up and two years later reports start up about Cerberus abducting human colonies and a rumor that Shepard was alive, and now working for Cerberus.

She only finds out about the resurrection thing after Shepard mentions it in conversation. So this new information, combined with the fact that Shepard is now with Cerberus, is a hell of a lot of information to digest in one sitting like that.

[quote]This is so utterly illogical a reaction by the Virmire survivor,, especially for an allegedly grieving LI, that it is almost funny.[/quote]

Yeah. How dare she not try to contact someone who she thought was dead and of whom she wasn't aware was being resurrected. Makes perfect sense when you think about it, I try to phone call dead people from halfway across the world all the time.
My psychic mind power which apparently everyone in the world convieniently has.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
3. I get really sick of hearing people say how Shepard 'saved her and the colony from the Collectors' when you remember that the Illusive Man specifically made that colony a target for the Collectors in the first place. He dropped a link to the Alliance that lead Ashley to coming to Horizon, which lead the Collectors to arriving to try to in turn coax a rise out of Shepard.
So essentially, Shepard saved her life, unaware that it was his newfound allies that put her at risk in the first place and you find out after the mission about this which if you ask me leads a lot of Shepard's points moot. It's hard to argue that Cerberus is not the enemy when they are ready to go to exteme measures like that, without telling you about them.
[/quote]
[quote]Another case of broken logic.[/quote]

Actually, it's a case of misunderstanding my point, which I shall cover properly in a moment.


[quote]Shepard is unawre that Cerberus has tweaked the cards by making Horizon an attractive target. But the same is true of the Virmire Survivor. At the time of the talk, and Ashley/Kaiden refusing to listen to Shepard's points regarding cooperation with Cerberus, neither knows any better. So trying to gloss over one's decision with some 20/20 hindsight is just sad. Nevermind that because of Horizon, Shepard actually in the end defeats the collectors, so of course, with Hindsight he/she  would be right as well.[/quote]

As someone else pointed out, Ashley doesn't need to know that Cerberus planned the Horizon attack to know that Cerberus isn't above shady activity. So she sees a Cerberus team arrive immediatley after the attack, she can put two and two together.

Plus, you missed my point.
My point was not that you can blame Shepard for Horizon but that you can, retrospectively at least, acknowledge that at the time when he was defending Cerberus as being his allies he was unaware that they had orchestered this entire attack. Hence the realization that this attack was planned, and his employer actually had intentions to put people he cared about at risk ought to be a fair amount of evidence that maybe Ashley was on to something about Cerberus being untrustworthy.
And yet everyone's too mad and angry about Ashley not agreeing with them straight away that they keep right on going, assuring themselves that they were right. That them not being told about a plot that put the lives of a former team member in jeapordy is proof that they were totally right to say that Cerberus is trustworthy.

"That's the narrow-minded attitudes that has caused far too many wars in
the last five centuries in an age, where, due to the advance of reason,
humanity should have known better."



I mean you only find yourself being put into dangerous situations unwittingly, what, three times? Horizon, the Collector Ship and the Derelict Reaper?


[quote]In result,, one cannot really play that card to blame Shepard, and of course she (or Kaiden ) doesn't. And even than, it might be argued, that with TIM's tweaking actually the best chance to save some colonists was picked, because of Horizon being trusted with defense technology by the Alliance and with Shepard being send to ambush the Collectors there.  Any other, totally random colony would have been a total loss. So, which is actually worse ? If in doubt, settle for the lesser evil[/quote]

Key word there still being 'evil'. It might be considered a necessary evil but it is still highly amoral and it paints the image of a group ready to go to very extreme measures to get what they want and of course, when the Collector Base comes into play, the big question remains 'what do Cerberus really want?'

Because if you blow up the base, the Illusive Man declares that it could have been used to 'secure human dominance' in the galaxy. I.e Let's use an ancient super weapon to allow for our races dominance and give it not to a government bound by law and reason but a corporation, famed for amoral actions.

And you really think that Cerberus was just doing all this out of the kindness of it's heart?

[quote]Oh, nevermind, that Ashely/Kaidan could just have retired from active millitary special-ops service or refused this particular  mission but instead placed themselves in harm's way.[/quote]

As someone else already said, they are marines. Dangerous jobs are what they do, but you can't deny the job was made dangerous thanks to the direct intervention of the Illusive Man. The guy you were unwittingly defending, unaware of this at the time and when you find out, you still don't concede and continue to maintain that you were right.


[quote]V-rex wrote...

To me, it looks like someone having difficulty coming to terms with a sudden change in everything they've ever understood as reality and as a result, responding to it angrily.
[/quote]

[quote]Yeah., as if that has never happened to Ashely/Kaiden before, especially when Shepard is around. A little more trust from one's former team-mates would seem natural. Also, both Tali  (with a clear and reasoned anti-Cerberus bias) or Liara reacted less.... stand-offish.[/quote]

You're implying that Shepard disappearing for two years and then coming back working for a corporation famed for evil is a regular occurance? Or for that matter, that things like this happen in the galaxy all the time?


[quote]V-rex wrote...
[quote]Anyone with at least a tiny shred of decency or self-assessment and her own record at "not-being-right-about-things" would have had the grace to at least listen to Shepard, before jumping to judgemental condemnation. Ashley doesn't. congratulations, She lost a friend there and then.[/quote]

Or, potentially, a person who had a strong opinion of someone once, two years ago, and is now shocked and surprised to see them working under the banner of a known terrorist organization. Like I  said, she does listen, she just has trouble believing. She gives him a chance to explain himself, he does a very Sh*tty job. After greeting her like he's been gone for a week on holiday and casually bringing up that he's with Cerberus:
"So yes, I'm with a terrorist organization now... pass the butter."

Of course she's going to react strongly.
[/quote]

[quote]So Shepard is to blame for being rudely interrupted by her ? Because AFAIK, she (or Kaiden) never asked "please tell my why you work for Cerberus !". Or anything like it. She rather obviously prefers not to disturb her made-up mind. Incidentally furthering the gap between Shepard and the Alliance who obviously would rather not listen to the truth, because the source is unpopular. Nevermind that the Aliiance has it's own shares of out-of-control experiments like the Hannibal V.I.... reminds me of the old saying concerning motes in other people's eyes...[/quote]

People have difficulty accepting change, especially when it's the entire world that they've ever understood coming crashing down before them. Ashley does listen to the truth, she just doesn't trust Cerberus. She accepts that the Collectors are a risk, but she doesn't think Cerberus has the good goals that Shepard maintains they do.
Source isn't 'unpopular' source is known for having a history of untrustworthy activity.

Also, the Hannibal VI wasn't an experiment, it just went rogue. It pails in comparison to feeding people to thresher maws.

[quote]Which is... bigotted, because she of course demands understanding and endorsement of  her point of view, without even deigning to consider Shepards at all. And when Shepard call's her on it with "you are treacting too emotional" there is not a second of reflection, just defensive persistence.[/quote]

Maybe you too are being bigotted for not taking the time to consider how it looks for her, instead assuming that she should just be able to comprehend that Shepard is alive, has been resurrected by a secret project and is now working for Cerberus to fight an army of enigmatic Collectors who are working for the Reapers.
All within five minutes.
Without getting emotional.

That she should just forget the last two years of grief, forget her loyalties to the Alliance, forget everything she's ever accepted as reality and forget that Cerberus has done all manner of really amoral things. That you must be right even though even you yourself can't fully claim to know all of what's going on behind the scenes with Cerberus.
Like oh say.... the very Horizon incident itself?

[quote]That's the narrow-minded attitudes that has caused far too many wars in the last five centuries in an age, where, due to the advance of reason, humanity should have known better.[/quote]

Wow, so this isn't just an argument about emotions and logic in extreme situations and loyalty, now this is a comment on how far the human race has advanced and evolved through history and the idea of enlightenment should be in effect, and that being too angry to see straight is the cause of war and destruction.

So basically what you are saying is that the mindset of being mad at someone leaving your army to go join a terrorist organization, equals war?


[quote]And you really wonder why one would dislike her ?[/quote]

Honestly, I'm wondering how so many people can make these kinds of arguments with a straight face.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
[quote]Reminds me rather strongly of certain Turian council members who "dismiss those claims" without even bothering to check.  But I guess it's only dislikable if the Turians do it^^[/quote]... Relevance?
[/quote]
[quote]Ahh, I see, if the council ignores Sheparad's reasoning everyone agrees they are deluded fools, not worth saving (but sometimes saved nevertheless) or even to be taken serious.
If Ashely Williams does not listen, she is "entitled to her view", and there being not a single reson to dislike her....[/quote]

Like I said before, the Council frequently ignored what Shepard was saying, Ashley only calls Shepard out on working with Cerberus once. She doesn't shout that she is 'entitled to her opinion' and I never said that I agreed with her stance on the Council. Only that it's very hard to compare two very different circumstances here.

Also, if paragoned, Ashley recommends you save the Council.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Are you implying that Ashley is somehow a hypocrite here? Because that's kind of silly. Ashley was there, she could verify the existence of the Reapers and the extent of the Geth Fleet risk because she was alongside hepard at the time and the Alliance isn't a group famed for cartoonish super villany.
But here, Ashley is being confronted and expected to just suddenly believe on face value the words of someone who she only just realized is still alive, that a terrorist organization who once fed fifty marines and a whole colony to thresher maws and planted bombs in the migrant fleet is now hoping to save human colonies entirely out of the kindness of their hearts and that, in turn, the Alliance is now considered untrustworthy.
[/quote]
[quote]Yes, she is an utter hippocrite.[/quote]


I think you mean Hypocrite.

(EDIT: Sorry, I can't get rid of the image.)

[quote]She has known and served close to Shepard for the entirity of ME-1. She, and her view of Aliens, the galaxy and assessment of situations are repeatedly proven wrong throughout ME-1. By Shepard.[/quote]

Actually her views on aliens, the Council at least, are proven. She maintains that the Council may not be helpful in the end at a time of crisis and then what do they do? They ignore the Illos warning and have Shepard and team locked down. They don't listen, they don't help. So Ashley was right, and Shepard was wrong.

If you successfully paragon Ashley then you get her to be more open minded about trusting aliens, but her original stance is not disproven. As it still happens, instead if she changes then she remains optimistic that the Council will pull through, if not then she remarks that she's glad she's not an optimist.


[quote]So it is the same Shepard, who now claims that - while not endorsing Cerebrus Message of human pre-dominance to be right -[/quote]

I don't remember him saying that. The two major things he brings up on Horizon is either:
A. Cerberus isn't the enemy.
or.
B. I don't work for Cerberus.

Basically he's given the choice to either say he's loyal to them or he isn't loyal to them, but at the same time in the 'I'm not working for Cerberus' he doesn't cover much of an opinion on the matter and the dialogue doesn't change. He doesn't continue to bring up pessimism about working for Cerberus, after the intial: "I'm not working for them." he just kind of reverts back to defending its interests and his position on things.

He never clearly says he doesn't endorse the Cerberus image, and if he maintains that Cerberus isn't the enemy then it only makes the line on how far his loyalty to them goes all the more blurry, from an outsiders view anyway.


[quote]Cerberus warnings about the Reaper threat not being over and Cerberus due to the Alliance's powermongering being the sole available, if unlikely ally at the moment, I do expect from an old  friend and former comrade-in-arms that she will actually listen to my reasoning.[/quote]

Again, how the hell do you say that without sounding like a traitor? How the hell do you talk down your former army and announce your allegience to this new one, without sounding like you have been brainwashed?
You have to remember that Cerberus has a terrible amoral history, would you suddenly believe that say, Al Qaeda were the only group willing to help save the free world? On face value, with no other evidence to go by other than someone who you thought was dead?


[quote]If she has factual objections, they will be heard and considered . But I expect the same privilege the other way round.[/quote]Fact 1: Shepard is forsaking his loyalty to the Alliance in favor of Cerberus, its enemy.
Fact 2: Cerberus has done some seriously awful unforgivable things in the past and generally have a reputation that they can't be trusted.
Fact 3: Shepard was resurrected in some way and 'rebuilt' by Cerberus, can you give me some evidence that they haven't indoctrinated you?
Fact 4: Shepard never tried to reconnect to the Alliance or for that matter contact Ashley and if they were lovers then that really is problematic.

Ashley asks all of these and gets lousy response, the answers she gets:
1. Cerberus is not the enemy anymore, the Alliance have turned their back on humanity.
2. ..... no answer, forget the fact that we fought them many times in the past, I would only be doing this for the right reasons.
3. Cerberus rebuilt me. That's all I'm going to tell you.
4. I didn't want to cause an emotional pain in you after two years of moving on. So yes, please ignore the fact that I'm here now doing just that.

Yes, if Shepard can find factual evidence to support the idea that he isn't actually being lead on an evil plot, or that there's more to this then just 'saving our colonies' then it can be heard. Instead all he has to present is that he's working for what the Alliance considered 'the enemy' and that he's been resurrected.

[quote]Ashely is unwilling to consent to this, much as the council, who ignores any unpopular findings from the missions they send Shepard on.[/quote]

Ashley doesn't ignore it, she clearly understands the Collector threat. She just doesn't buy the idea that Cerberus is suddenly trustworthy. She goes off to report everything Shepard told her to the Citadel, Collectors, Cerberus, everything. She clearly noted the risk, she just refused to join Cerberus and was worried that Shepard seemed to trust them.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Also there is a very special level of hell designated to people who use little triangles as smiling eyes when they are being obnoxious. You just bought a one way ticket.
(kidding)
[/quote]
How dare you squander my hopes !

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Well, the main and most obvious reason as to why she didn't email you or try to contact you was because she didn't freaking know you were alive. Why on earth would such highly classified information go to a low ranking soldier, especially when there wasn't any real solid evidence at the time? Eventually she finds out about this whole thing thanks to a tip (by the Illusive man as part of his elaborate DEATH TRAP thank you very much) and that's when the idea crosses her head.
Also, it goes both ways. If you are allowed to ask why she didn't contact you based on a tiny unconfirmed report/rumor that you are alive then why didn't you contact her when you got the chance after getting the new Normandy? Why didn't you try to reconnect with the Alliance and why didn't you make sure she was okay?
[/quote]

[quote]Her personel file is highly classified, so she is far from a "simple soldier" anymore. I 'd rather suepct her being a human spectre, or at least getting groomed for that role. Hence she would have inside access and information, and in all likelihood be close to either Anderson and/or Admiral Hackett. She is after all the right hand woman of the legendar late Commander Shepard.[/quote]

I want you to remember this last bit, as you say something that outright contradicts it later down the line.

Also I notice you dodged my bit about why Shepard didn't try to contact her. I mean, heaven forbid you ever try to practise what you keep on preaching.

[quote]Anderson knows, and as the LotSB files reveal, so does Admrial hackett and other branches of the Alliance millitary.It is hard to believe that noone contacted her or even interviewed her on her take of Shepard now working for Cerberus. I also seem to remember that she claims "she didn't believe the rumours to be true", but would have to check... but implying she heard of it.[/quote]

A Councilor and an Admiral have more access to sensitive information then an Operations Chief would. Your entire argument here is based on the assumption that she has a greater influence on the Alliance Military then that of a standard Operations Chief. Which all evidence suggests that she doesn't.

Also remember the email, after Horizon? Where she concedes and admits that she still trusts you and understands why if not how this has come to be? Perhaps the character isn't still mad at Shepard and is along with Hackett and Anderson in knowing about Shepard and Cerberus and is wondering where to go from here.

[quote]She obviously did not think it feasible to drop Liara a call either, who could have explained wide parts of the situation at the rop of a hat ?[/quote]

Oh... my.... God

She DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE RESURRECTION PLAN! With that in mind, how the hell would she know Liara was involved in possibly the most secretive plan in the history of the galaxy? Shepard didn't know at the time that Liara was involved, so why on Earth would Ashley?
You are expecting her to instinctively know something that has never before been mentioned... by anyone, and never would be again.
If she didn't know about Lazarus, how the hell would she know Liara helped provide the body for Lazarus?

Now THAT'S a nice slice of broken logic.

(EDIT: Sorry, needless aggression)


[quote]V-rex wrote...
She does say that she went to Anderson but he wouldn't talk, and so she went looking herself (implying that she was looking for Shepard or at least was entertaining thoughts of him being alive). The only time she gets to communicate with him properly is when they meet on Horizon, where it is finally confirmed that he is alive and, like she was dreading, he is now working for Cerberus.
[/quote]
[quote]hmm, the emails from Shepards mother reach him/her quite fine trhough the interweb ? Surely Ashley should be be able of the same effort ? And talking to Anderson only confirms my point f her knowing but not caring enough[/quote]

Not knowing, entertaining the notion. The idea had passed but there was no confirmation, she didn't know anything for sure until Horizon.
And she went there, hoping to find Shepard and what she got was Shepard working for Cerberus.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Seriously, someone you admired or even loved disappears after a tragic disaster, you spend two years in grief and then they come back suddenly working for the arch enemy of everything you've ever stood for.
[/quote]

[quote]Same for Liara. Totally different, much more reasoned reaction. Same for Tali, with even better reason to hate you. Much more nuanced and thoughtful reaction. Chakwas ? Even quit alliance service and applied with cerberus on the off-chance Lazarus would succeed.[/quote]

Unfair comparisons. Different people respond to things differently. Liara participated in getting Shepard back because she was actually contacted about it, Ashley wasnt.
Similarly Chatwas left because Joker left and because she couldn't handle planetside assignments, they were later assigned to Shepard's new Ship some time later.

Besides, Liara and Tali were guarenteed to be alive at the end of Mass Effect 1, hence they had the oppurtinty to have expanded roles. It's unfair to make that kind of comparison.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
However, she does apologize. Admitting that she understands why he's working with Cerberus and saying that via loyalty ties she can't go where he's going but she can still wish him luck. This kind of utterly negates every point you made about her being an unapologetic type who always thinks she's right. Point is if she sends an email, it's because she loves Shepard. Enough to apologize for what she says, explain her position on things and let you know that the anger has passed.
[/quote]
[quote]So much for friendship and/or even love. Totally wimpy reaction, especially after not even listenming to Shepard but condemning wholesale and on circumstantial evidence.[/quote]

An email was all she could give. If Shepard was working with Cerberus then perhaps it would be considered treason if she tried to meet up with him again, she had a change of heart and wanted to let him know that.

Also despite 'condemning' she still greets him with an embrace on Horizon and when she leaves she asks him to be careful. So I wouldn't say 'wholesale'.

Also 'Circumstancial evidence'? It's is very clear that Shepard is working with Cerberus. He is being accompanied by their agents, he has spoken to their leader directly, he is accepting funding from them and he is wearing the uniform. HE IS WORKING FOR CERBERUS, THAT IS A FACT.

That is why she is mad in the first place, also events like what happened on the Migrant Fleet, Akuze, Pragia and so very many other places over the course of the story are also cold hard facts. Ergo knowing for a fact that Cerberus has a bad track record and that Shepard is now working for them is a lot of evidence.

Ashley doesn't trust Cerberus, and if you were in her position I doubt you would either.

In fact, I actually think hers (and Kaiden's) reactions on Horizon made the most sense, plus at least if thyey demonstrate hurt and confusion at seeing you return does demonstrate a degree of respect or even love doesn't it? I mean if they demonstrated, clearly, that they were in grief all that time and now they are having difficulty readjusting to seeing you return it at least means you must have been pretty important to them.

I mean come on, it would have been a thousand times worse if they had just shrugged off the relationship, your death and the two years that followed and just went right along as if it were status quo. That would imply that deep down, you really weren't all that important to them.


[quote]To my mind, the sort of "fair-weather-only" friendship  (and My shepard) can very well do without.[/quote]

Hang on a second, she had one angry falling out and then later cooled her head and apologized.
You respond to that one single action as 'she just lost a friend' and continue to boo and malign her for it, making the hatred greater and greater and refusing to even consider forgiving her for one single outburst.

Basically, because she wouldn't feed your ego one time and dared to disagree with you, you now cut off all friendship and emotional ties and past loyalties and now have nothing left but anger that goes on for months even after she's apologized.... and you justfiy it by saying she obviously thinks of this as 'fair weather only'?

So.... who's the real 'fair weather only' friendship here?

Also, I recall something about Ashley being a 'hypocrite' a while back?

Can I call you out on this one?

[quote]V-rex wrote...
The Alliance and Cerberus have been arch enemies since the two factions were established. That kind of long lasting blood fued makes every other issue pale in comparison, Ashley is a die hard loyalist to the Alliance, always has been and always will be. Hence she isn't about to give everything up, especially given that she vocally opposes, quite strongly, the ideals of Cerberus.
[/quote]
[quote]The entire "arch-enemy" talk is so much empty air and bogus talks in the context of ME-2 , when you can actually dock in Alliance controlled or allied space and not even be hassled by security. When you can actually walk up to the Aliiance Counsel and talk to him, with known Cereberus agents at your side, without any hassle, questions raised or even security queries. It really makes you wonder about some of that PR-spin on alleged Cerberus activities and "responsibility" in ME-1.[/quote]

EDIT: Actually thank Admiral Hackett, he's the one who pulled strings to make sure that Shepard wouldn't get arrested, after the report from Horizon and other such things, the higher ups in the Alliance are preventing Shepard from being arrested for what is essentially a serious offence.


[quote]I will not indulge in the Alliance + Cerberus  conspiracy theories on these forums, but they certainly bear some consideration.[/quote]

No, they really don't. And frankly, I'm sick of hearing them. It's all just a way for a bunch of people who are butthurt that an NPC didn't agree with them to justify working for a terrorist cell by convincing themselves that the Alliance is somehow a villain.

[quote]At least the conflict betwwen Blood Pact, Eclipse and Blue Suns seemed far more intense and real than Alliance prosecution of Cerberus crimes and activity.[/quote]

From what I understand, Cerberus operate mostly in the Terminus Systems, which is a place that the Alliance doesn't have much influence in, hence they kind of can't procecute.
Besides, one doesn't need to look to long at these two groups to know that they hate each other and don't trust each other. And when you consider the Alliance is an actual government and Cerberus is corporate owned, you know which one is more likely to be 'evil'.

PMC's do not have a good rep in games.

[quote]Nevermind that even the Turians, Batarians, Volus, Aasari and Salarians seem to have no qualms talkingto agents of that "anti-Alien, pro-Humanity" organisation.[/quote]

Remember how thrilled Prazza was to see Cerberus agents on Freedom's Progress?

Besides when it comes to the aliens that do business with Cerberus they are typically amoral ones themselves, mercenaries, terrorists, criminals etc. I mean think about it, certain weapons dealers have been known to trade with armies that are at war with the army that the dealers are based in.
Money is money.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Plus if you remember right, Garrus was a lawless viglante with no loyalties and no place to go, hence the mission was kind of the only shot he had. Similarly Tali doesn't join up right away if you remember correctly, she joins later having had considerable time to think about things.
Ashley doesn't really get that, she just gets confronted.
[/quote]
[quote]Garrus could have walked away or decided to quit from the moment he woke up.[/quote]

After his team died, his identity discovered, his home destroyed and having nearly been shot to death. Yeah, sounds like Garrus had a whole lot of options waiting for him. Besides, being a lawless vigilante means he had no loyalties to follow so he, like so many others, would have had less problem joining Cerberus.

[quote]Tali only joined after horizon, because on Freedom's Progress he had a mission to finish and would not serve two masters at once.[/quote]

Yes, but she was under the impression that Shepard was trying to take down Cerberus on the inside. She also maintained no love for Cerberus in any way shape or form. So yes, she doesn't trust Cerberus and she does still wonder about whether or not it is right.
Regardless of this, she still had more time to think about things then Ashley did. She wasn't just randomly confronted on the spot with:
"I died, I'm back, I'm with Cerberus, Work for me!"


[quote]Neither delayed because they distrusted your judgement or because Cerberus agents accompanied you.
*shrug*[/quote]

Yet the game lets you express to them that you aren't so sure about trusting Cerberus and that you are expecting them to go evil at any moment.
An oppurtuntiy the game (and I must put emphasis on this) the game doesn't let you do with Ashley. Giving you basically only the option to defend Cerberus and say that you trust them one hundred percent.

[quote]V-rex wrote...
Thing is, Wrex doesn't join up either, nor does Liara. No one ever condemns them for it. Ashley has a duty to the Alliance, hence she wasn't able to go with Shepard.
[/quote]

[quote]Both have bigger fish to fry. Wrex tries to save the Korgan species, which is a lifetime undertaking. [/quote]


There won't be a Krogan race if the Reapers have their say in the matter though, hence Wrex doing all he's doing to unite the Krogan might end up being a lost cause anyway, one that could have been prevented if he had joined.
I don't deny Wrex is awesome in all ways possible and that what he's doing is great but in the end if you are prepared to do the 'look at things in perspective, the reapers are the big threat' thing to Ashley then one can easily apply that to Wrex.

I think my point still remains valid, people aren't judging Ashley or Kaiden for the fact that they didn't join up, they are judging them because they got mad at Shepard and didn't bow at his feet in awe.

[quote]Liara is hunting down the Shadowbroker, as we know since the LotSB DLC, to save her friend Feron. BTW, a good example of true and loyal friendship, ashely might want to take notes..[/quote]<_<

Stupidly different circumstances, to the point that comparing them is laughable. If Shepard had been in some kind of major danger and Ashley knew what the danger was and who was responsible I don't doubt that she would have gone after him just like Liara did with Feron.
Instead though, Shepard shows up and challenges her loyalty ties, it's very different.

Also think about this, if Liara had finally reuinited with Feron, only to find him now happily and willingly working with the Shadow Broker and saying that he was doing this 'for the right reasons', do you think she wouldn't feel betrayed? Do you think she wouldn't be pissed off?

 Ashley spent two years in grief and trying to defend Shepard's good name when the accusations started piling up. While being aware, or at least thinking she was aware, that he was never coming back. That sounds like loyalty to me.


[quote]Ashley on the other hand is still a commando, and not in charge of any number of soldiers or civillians with their lives depending on her staying with them. She might even help the Alliance by gaining valuable inside information of Cerberus by joining up with Shepard, or at least keeping track of the Cerberus effort. Seeing Admiral Hackett and/or Counsellor Anderson agree to this line of reasoning is not a major leap of faith. But she... does not.[/quote]

Now a moment ago you just said that Ashley had a classified personell file and had prestegious rank within the Alliance, enough to gain information usually limited to the higher ups and was possibly a candidate for being the next human Spectre.....

... and now you are saying she is 'still a commando' with no immediate duties or important tasks ahead of her and therefore should have nothing to lose from dropping everything and joining Cerberus.
Your argument here is now invalid.

Decide which version of Ashley Williams you want to keep for this argument and keep the story straight.

In any case, as an OPERATIONS CHIEF, Ashley would be expected to have duties, help take care of Horizon after the attack, report to Anderson, secure locations. The point of being a Chief of Operations implies that there are Operations to be a Chief to.
What she's doing might be important, maybe even vital to the success of the Reaper mission. We don't know.

But also, just because she's an Operations Chief doesn't mean she'll know the finest details of military intelligence that she could instinctively know that Shepard was being resurrected in a secret project halfway across the galaxy.

Also, remember her family name? The Williams name has already got enough dirt on it without official records stating that one of them willingly left the Alliance to join Cerberus, that would be called a betrayal. And even if it was considered a 'covert mission' it would still have to officially state that she betrayed the Alliance.
Capital offence.


[quote]V-rex wrote...
I agree with this, part of the problem is that since she has the potential to be killed off in Mass Effect 1 her role in the next story is forced to be reduced and can't be as important. It feels like kind of a waste of potential here.

Just to be clear I am pissed off greatly about how Horizon played out, but I don't blame the character for that, I just blame the fact that I was dealt such a crappy hand.
[/quote]

[quote]Yeah, but the characters as we know them are defined by their interactionas implemented. Say, like Thane. I like the general concept, I like the voice acting, but am deeply  p****ed off by the way he is implemented, or rather written. I am not going to be taken in by an allegedly possible reaction of a character which he/she never actually shows. There are a lot of people defending Jack and pointing to a lot of unimplemented text and scenes. Stuff that does not get implemented does not actually become part of the character as conceived by Bioware, IMHO.[/quote]

Like I said, I blame Bioware for lazy writing. And under these circumstances, I understood why Ashley responded how she did and don't blame her for doing so. Bioware said that the reason for doing all this was so that the character would be able to be given a big role in Mass Effect 3, so I, along with everyone else in the Ashley/Kaiden fanbase, am waiting to see if it's worth it.

[quote]And Ashley, to my reasoning, blew all sympathies she kept from ME-1 away by being such an utterly narrow-minded, short tempered and trustless .....sod..... on Horizon.[/quote]

And yet, she cools her temper and apologizes for what she says, and people are still getting mad about it even to this day, having been unable to get over it.
So basically for one reaction she had in an extreme situation, people continue to badmouth her for many months later. Responding to this whole thing like a petulant child, angry that they weren't allowed to get the ice cream cone, but this time the temper tantrum lasts for months. If you ask me, the latter is the immature club here, not the former.

Think about it, if you got pushed into an emotional situation and responded angrily, then later cooled off and tried to apologize via email (that being your only way to do so) and then found out that months later, people were still getting pissy at you for it, wouldn't you demand a little respect?

Let me make something clear here, these are just my reasons for why I'm not mad at Ashley for Horizon. If you feel differently then by all means feel free to.
I get the feeling all this text walling is for naught because neither of us will change our opinions.


EDIT: I am so sorry that I rushed this response, had I known you were going to reply to my prior message in a calm respectful way, I never would.

Modifié par V-rex, 31 décembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[LordPennlocke]

Kronner wrote...

Shepard did exactly what he was asked to do - find out what happened, and present the evidence to the admirals. The fact that Tali can't handle it only proves that she should not be on the Normandy at all. Her father is a monster and gets a free pass just because Tali is his daughter? That's just not right.<_<

Since when does being raised to be selfless all one's life and wanting someone you've idolized and obediently followed to end a threat (that could have ushered in another cycle of galactic genocide), who died and came back to life respect your 'petty' (compared to what I mentioned) wishes is paramount to having/not having a backbone?

Certainly one couldn't feel betrayed, ticked off, 'whiny', or retain some degree of lingering animosity after having such a request denied.

Shepard was indirectly asked by the Admirals, the politicians, to find evidence. I don't know about you, but doing/listening to what politicians say or want hasn't worked out great the past couple years. Bad things happen.

Modifié par LordPennlocke, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Kronner]

LordPennlocke wrote...

Since when does being raised to be selfless all one's life and wanting someone you've idolized and obediently followed to end a threat (that could have ushered in another cycle of galactic genocide), who died and came back to life respect your 'petty' (compared to what I mentioned) wishes is paramount to having/not having a backbone?

Certainly one couldn't feel betrayed, ticked off, 'whiny', or retain some degree of lingering animosity after having such a request denied.

Personally, I never wanted her on my squad in the first place, unfortunately in ME1 you have no choice and in ME2 you have to recruit Tali to get important upgrade for the Normandy..otherwise someone else will die.
All the dialogue (which can't be skipped) in her LM is written under the assumption that Shepard likes Tali.  Shepard acts like she was important part of the team that beat Saren and his geth. Why? She never left the engine room in my game. Anyway, just because Tali is Shep's team mate does not mean she and her familly are special or untouchable.

LordPennlocke wrote...
Shepard was indirectly asked by the Admirals, the politicians, to find evidence. I don't know about you, but doing/listening to what politicians say or want hasn't worked out great the past couple years. Bad things happen.

But protecting a man who commited genocide is just fine and dandy, because the monster is Tali's father? Well, then I guess Jacob's dad should be protected too, right? Oh no..Jacob is actually smart and misson-first guy and approves of the punishment..even death. What Rael Zorah did is wrong and the punsihment is well deserved IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:40 .

[Reaper27]

mrsph wrote...

Do you really blame Tali for wanting to at least keep her dad from becoming an un-person? Being erased from your people's history is a horrible fate for anyone.

If I was in Tali's position and it had been my father who had done that, I wouldn't just want his name erased from the records, I'd ask them to let me erase it personally. Rael'Zorah caused the deaths of dozens of people (most of whom were probably completely innocent).

Modifié par Reaper27, 03 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[achwas]

Reaper27 wrote...

mrsph wrote...
Do you really blame Tali for wanting to at least keep her dad from becoming an un-person? Being erased from your people's history is a horrible fate for anyone.

If I was a Quarian it had been my father who had done that, I wouldn't just want his name erased from the records, I'd ask for a pen so I can do it personally. Some things are just unforgivable.

Might be easier than living with his name as a reminder of his deeds and your lineage to everyone else, too.
I wouldn't want to live with the name of a war-criminal in RL, not even by coincidence, and most certainly not as an accomplice in  a cover-up.

Her dad made himself an un-person by his very deeds, not the public awareness of them. And there is a comprehensive amount of guilt towards the innocent scientists involved in the experiments, the crew of the "Alaray" , nevermind the Quarian marines send to investigate.. ...
Or is a crime not a crime because it hasn't been publicly talked about ?

On the other hand, with Shepard never even mentioning what exactly Rael did on the "Alaray" he increases the chances the full story will never get out and reach the Geth. Maybe that is why it is actually a "paragonic" choice to participate in the cover up........ doesn't sound like a shining example of morality though

[Louis_Cypher]

Kronner wrote...
But protecting a man who commited genocide is just fine and dandy, because the monster is Tali's father?

 
Now wait a minute, here.

What is it that people think Tali's father actually did?  The worst you could say about him using POWs in weapons testing.  Certainly a war crime, but not genocide, even if you buy the arguments on geth personhood (which I do, but not everyone does, and it's more understandable why quarians wouldn't).  And then he gets too aggressive and careless about testing, leading to his subjects escaping and killing people, which is criminally negligent but not malicious (and hardly unique to him).

And it's not like the war with the geth was all above-board and clean before Rael got involved.  They've targeted civilian populations and used Husk technology to essentially enslave prisoners (including non-combatant captives).  That doesn't excuse the abuse of POWs, but it does put the crime in perspective.

Well, then I guess Jacob's dad should be protected too, right? Oh no..Jacob is actually smart and misson-first guy and approves of the punishment..even death. What Rael Zorah did is wrong and the punsihment is well deserved IMHO.

What happens to Rael'Zorah?  He's killed by the victims of his cruelty.  Which is basically the same thing that happens to Ronald Taylor in 2 out of 3 choices.  And if it comes it, he can probably be posthumously found guilty of treason on the same "evidence" that Tali (potentially) is.

So I'm not seeing how Rael gets off so easy.

[Pacifien]

If this thread is going to turn into a debate about Tali's father, I'd prefer someone start a new thread in the ME2 Campaign Quests and Storyline Forum rather than co-opt this thread. Thank you.

[Kronner]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Now wait a minute, here.

What is it that people think Tali's father actually did?  The worst you could say about him using POWs in weapons testing.  Certainly a war crime, but not genocide, even if you buy the arguments on geth personhood (which I do, but not everyone does, and it's more understandable why quarians wouldn't).  And then he gets too aggressive and careless about testing, leading to his subjects escaping and killing people, which is criminally negligent but not malicious (and hardly unique to him).

And it's not like the war with the geth was all above-board and clean before Rael got involved.  They've targeted civilian populations and used Husk technology to essentially enslave prisoners (including non-combatant captives).  That doesn't excuse the abuse of POWs, but it does put the crime in perspective.

What happens to Rael'Zorah?  He's killed by the victims of his cruelty.  Which is basically the same thing that happens to Ronald Taylor in 2 out of 3 choices.  And if it comes it, he can probably be posthumously found guilty of treason on the same "evidence" that Tali (potentially) is.

So I'm not seeing how Rael gets off so easy.

He's killed, but that does not mean he is a special case for whom quarian law does not exist. The way I see it he is killed for his incompetence, but the crime he commited is another thing..

mrsph wrote...

Players sort of have the gift of hindsight with Legion. But if you remove him then you realize the geth are an incredibly hostile force that attacks literally anything that goes through the Perseus Veil and never even bothers to communicate with the rest of the galaxy. And also attacked several colonies and nearly doomed the galaxy in the first game. You can't really blame the quarians for trying to find a way to combat them, because from their perspective, the geth are going on a rampage and may try to target them again.


I also wish they handled Legion's recruitment better. Because Shepard looks like a moron (again) when s/he just blindly accepts the word of a machine that has tried to kill him/her a million times over.

And why is that? Because you only know one - quarian - side of the whole story. That is not geth's fault.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Louis_Cypher]

Pacifien wrote...

If this thread is going to turn into a debate about Tali's father, I'd prefer someone start a new thread in the ME2 Campaign Quests and Storyline Forum rather than co-opt this thread. Thank you.

You're the boss.

[Sable Rhapsody]

GracefulChicken wrote...
However, I compliment Bioware for envoking such a strong hatred for Quarians in me. I think its really a feat (a good one) that I feel that strongly about a character. It says theyre doing a great job telling a story and leaving the details up for personal interpretation.

To me, that's the take-away message.  David Gaider has often said on the DA forums that the mark of a good character is one that gets people to feel strongly about them, whether it's like or dislike.  People tend to feel strongly about the ME characters in general.  That's the mark of some strong writing there, at least for most of the characters.

[Markinator_123]

Am I the only one who thinks Ashley's opinion on the council is right on the money? The council doesn't look after human interests at all!