531 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

The_Numerator wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I also feel that characters romancing Douche Shepard is a faulty game mechanic on BioWare's part that characters like Miranda, Ashley, Liara and Thane also suffer from.

This is so. Frustratingly, bafflingly so.

It's one thing to like an ***hole. It is quite another to be completely enamored with someone who treats you like ****.

Though, that actually happens, I suppose...

Still, one would assume anyone capable enough to make it on the galaxy's A-Team, isn't going to be a complete doormat either.

This is how I see it also.

I realize that loving someone who's a jerk to you happens in real life, but I have also noticed that it makes the person doing the loving unappealing. Doormats are unappealing. At least to me.

So if the goal is to make the LIs appealing, I'd say this particular issue is a no-no.

[fongiel24]

Epic777 wrote...

Miranda - Rubs me the wrong way at the start of the game.

My mind immediately went to a very dark, non-G rated place when I read this, since you're passed out on a table, presumably in a partial state of undress with Miranda hovering over you at the start of the game.

[dgumb]

fongiel24 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Miranda - Rubs me the wrong way at the start of the game.

My mind immediately went to a very dark, non-G rated place when I read this, since you're passed out on a table, presumably in a partial state of undress with Miranda hovering over you at the start of the game.

Wouldn't that be rubbing you the right way?:innocent:

[Kasen]

Jacob and Zaeed...

Actually, I don't dislike Jacob... there's just not much to like about Jacob. It's all been said before...

As for Zaeed, his methods and mine aren't very compatible. He's not a team player... he may be a good soldier, but I really wanted the option to kick him off the Normandy after that stunt on Zorya.

Honorable Mentions: Thane and Samara... I swear they're virtually the same character! They do at least give some insight into their species though, and I do like them both...

Modifié par Kasen13, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Ryzaki]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, I guess I feel like reasons like that don't have much to do with the character.

Tali has much more of a purpose than a chacacter like, say, Thane, who has no actual job on the Normandy and no role in the suicide mission, whereas Tali is chief engineer and can be used as a tech expert in the vents.

I also feel that characters romancing Douche Shepard is a faulty game mechanic on BioWare's part that characters like Miranda, Ashley, Liara and Thane also suffer from.

 

What her just being there? I suppose not. But she's rather bland too. I can atleast have a decent amount of conversations with Thane. Tali I can only talk to like twice before she starts blushing around my, my dude shep shuts her down and after that she's busy working on the engines. <_<   


Ah yes. The romance of Douche Shepard always confused me. You can be the most racist bastard on the planet yet alien females still swoon at the sight of you. 

[cihimi]

Nothing beats the annoying and useless Alenko/Williams tandem.

[The_Numerator]

No, "doormat" is a universally undesirable trait. Like...

...

Hmm. Well, my nerd instincts are failing me. I was going for something Master-of-Orion-2-ish, like something about taking a -2 food production racial penalty... Ach. I ruined it.

Anyway, while I liked that eventually things could go all "mutual understanding and respect" with Miranda, Jack it was either "Romance, or continued psychopathy"-- As if love makes people less psychopathic... Riiiiiiiight. Where're the Cerberus peer-counseling options, huh?

Wait, am I describing a character thing or a character-interaction mechanic thing?

I'm so very tired.

[DoomMech]

dgumb wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Miranda - Rubs me the wrong way at the start of the game.

My mind immediately went to a very dark, non-G rated place when I read this, since you're passed out on a table, presumably in a partial state of undress with Miranda hovering over you at the start of the game.

Wouldn't that be rubbing you the right way?:innocent:

Bazinga!

[AntiChri5]

But allow me to re-bunk Miranda sucking in combat by saying that Sentinal, Engineer and Soldier Shepard all have extremely effective armor killing attacks and weapons. As for barrier busting, Sentinal Shepard, Adept Shepard and Thane (and post loyalty Jack) all can take down barriers with frightening ease. Shields? Childs play; Garrus and Kasumi have Overload, and Zaeed has disrupter ammo.



Combined with fact that you get Kasumi and Zaeed so early in the game, you can neglect Miranda almost right out of the gate.

Her ability to increase health of the team is irrelevent when a cover system is involved, and on insanity, you'll get killed extremely quickly with or without a insignificant boost in health. And besides, almost every squaddie has a class power that boosts their health much more than Miranda ever could.

Firstly, combat capabilities are not a part of somebodies character, and shouldn't be factored in when judging them as such.

Secondly, Miranda is obscenely useful as a squadmate, having powers for every defense as well as a passive boost to the entire squads weapon damage.

[Epic777]

DoomMech wrote...

dgumb wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Miranda - Rubs me the wrong way at the start of the game.

My mind immediately went to a very dark, non-G rated place when I read this, since you're passed out on a table, presumably in a partial state of undress with Miranda hovering over you at the start of the game.

Wouldn't that be rubbing you the right way?:innocent:

Bazinga!

Good grief<_< <insert anime tear-drop>

[gamestress]

Ashley annoys me with her poetry and Jack is just a bioch.

[Redcoat]

Miranda: Her appearance is the first of many things that put me off. Anyone who wears stilettos into battle automatically loses points in my book, and that's just one part of her outfit. In ME1 all the female party members had reasonable outfits that covered everything from the neck down (or completely covered, in Tali's case). Then come ME2 and you have people like Miranda, Jack, and Samara, although it's Miranda who seems to get the most lingering camera shots on her "assets". Obviously your mileage may vary, but I detest it when someone or something throws "teh sexy!" in my face and expects me to drool over it.

Her attitude, however, is what really put me off. Her arrogant statements of "I'm never wrong" and "I'm very good at anything I choose to do" sends up all manner of warning flags that she isn't anywhere near as competent as she believes she is. Now, confidence is not a bad thing - Tali is confident in her abilities as an engineer, Joker is confident in his abilities as a pilot, Kasumi is confident in her skills as a thief, but in each case their confidence extends to a particular skill. Miranda, on the other hand, thinks she's good at everything, which smacks of plain old overconfidence.

Thirdly, I resented her position aboard the SR-2. She is essentially a "political commissar" there to preach the Cerberus gospel. I'm sorry, but my Shepard doesn't need a political officer to save the galaxy, let alone a Cerberus one. I was annoyed that, when Miranda says "Cerberus isn't as evil as you believe," my Sole Survivor Shepard couldn't retort, "tell that the fifty marines who died on Akuze."

Jacob: I won't say I hated him, but after you get the SR-2 he transforms into a passive/aggressive lump. Before that he was the only one who was straightforward and honest with you when you were in an unfamiliar situation. What happened?

Non party members:

Delan: His "b-b-b-but it's the Alliance's fault!" line reminds me of those rubes in John Deere hats sitting at a coffee shop, tirelessly whining about "the gub'ment" and being all too willing to rant at length about just what the hell is wrong with this country.

Kelly Chambers: Like Ashley, she indirectly likens aliens to animals when she tries to explain how Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. Not only that, I found her to be a flightly, naive twit, and her flirtiness was intensely annoying. When she says, "I always have time for you, Commander!" I wanted to put my fist throug her face. Seeing her being melted down by the Collectors was glorious. "But Kelly," said I, "this is how Reapers reproduce! I thought you said intimacy brought understanding!"

Zaeed: Not so much dislike, but more like disinterest. Sure, he's a badass, but badasses are a dime a dozen in games these days. That, and he obviously doesn't work well on a team, which is the whole point of ME2. Then again, you could probably send him alone into the Collector base and everything would die but him.



But no Mass Effect character can inspire so much hatred for a fictional character as does Cammen in Dragon Age. I always break up his relationship.

Modifié par Redcoat, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[DoomMech]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But allow me to re-bunk Miranda sucking in combat by saying that Sentinal, Engineer and Soldier Shepard all have extremely effective armor killing attacks and weapons. As for barrier busting, Sentinal Shepard, Adept Shepard and Thane (and post loyalty Jack) all can take down barriers with frightening ease. Shields? Childs play; Garrus and Kasumi have Overload, and Zaeed has disrupter ammo.

Combined with fact that you get Kasumi and Zaeed so early in the game, you can neglect Miranda almost right out of the gate.
Her ability to increase health of the team is irrelevent when a cover system is involved, and on insanity, you'll get killed extremely quickly with or without a insignificant boost in health. And besides, almost every squaddie has a class power that boosts their health much more than Miranda ever could.

Firstly, combat capabilities are not a part of somebodies character, and shouldn't be factored in when judging them as such.

True, but having a character that's useful to gameplay helps make them more likable; It makes seem as though they're contributing to the game, you're part of a team.

I just did not get that from Miranda. She's always rubbed me the wrong way, no supposed utility in battle is going to change that.

[Mondo47]

Characters I don't like...

To be honest, there's not that many; I found there were a lot more characters that irritated the hell out of me in Dragon Age than Mass Effect (have I got tired of mentioning how much I absolutely hate that whining manchild Alistair yet, or Morrigan - the know-it-all queen of double-standards and pointless b*tching... errm... no).

None of the principle characters at least got my goat in ME2; the only characters I had any kind of dislike for were Miranda and Kelly, and that has certainly lessened as time has passed (at least in Miranda's case... Kelly will forevermore be someone who feeds Shepard's fish and nothing else). My beef with Miranda was her attitude; her arrogance and aloofness were only trumped by her constant harping about her superiority... oh, you've been tailored to be smarter, fitter, more attractive and longer-lived than any other human, and yet you spend all your time b*tching about it. It's the same reason I hate the oh-woe-is-me-I'll-never-see-another-sunrise variety of vampire in pop culture. Poor you - you're better than everyone else. I understand the dichotomy of having everything and yet wishing for mundanity; of wanting to fit in, be normal, not have to constantly struggle to meet expectations of one as perfect as yourself, it just gets tiresome if you make no effort to be normal other than banging on about how fantastic you are. A lot of people like to make comparisons to Jack there in the sucky attitude department, but frankly I think torture, rape, imprisonment and a desperate existance illicit a lot more sympathy and patience in me than someone who at first comes across as little more than a poor little rich girl who, to steal a metaphore from Joker, acts like she has tenure at F.U.

My sympathy for her was nonexistant - until the LotSB dossiers revealed her to be much more human; a woman with desires and sadnesses I could understand and relate to at last. It made her much more human for the fact she was trying to scratch her itches and was, well, not so superior after all. I could meet her halfway then, and now while I hardly ever use her in-game, I do see the woman underneath the costume (both literal and metaphorical) - one I can understand as another woman and even like a little. That has surprised me a lot.

Characters I really don't like are limited to supporting players. The only one that really makes me squirm is Aria. Yeah, I know, she's very popular, but I can't stand her. I understand that she is obviously a powerful underworld figure, but the entire you-do-as-I-say-here routine just makes me want to storm into Afterlife with the Normandy crew and execute the smirking cow. At the end of the day, Shepard has slain one of the galaxy's secret machine-gods; he's looked Mecha-Cthulhu in the eye and laughed in his steely betentacled chops... and yet I'm supposed to take this "don't f*ck with Aria" shpiel at face value? Yeah, you have a whole bunch of mooks to back you up, sweetheart, but it does not impress me in the slightest... to quote The Juggernaut "do you know who I am?" I'd forgive it all if she was even remotely loveable, humourous or empathic, but I get nothing from her other than a level of irritation I can only compare to cistitis. Someone as long-lived, experienced and cautious as Aria is supposed to be would surely be a lot more careful in her dealings with Shepard - a person that has been places and done things no other human has and even cheated death... for her to be so blase and self-aggrandising strikes me as an attempt to nod to The Matrix's Merovingian; one that fails for me because at least he had the redeeming fact of being funny.

There really wasn't anyone else I disliked; I think the writers on the whole did an outstanding job on both the games. Sure, almost every character has a couple of minor quibbles that people point out, and rightly so, but in all honesty, I think the only character I never liked (and by now probably never will) is Aria... it's obviously down to me, mind you - no more than my opinion, and no intention to stand on anyone's toes.

Modifié par Mondo47, 25 octobre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

cihimi wrote...

Nothing beats the annoying and useless Alenko/Williams tandem.

No one, but you.

[AntiChri5]

DoomMech wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

But allow me to re-bunk Miranda sucking in combat by saying that Sentinal, Engineer and Soldier Shepard all have extremely effective armor killing attacks and weapons. As for barrier busting, Sentinal Shepard, Adept Shepard and Thane (and post loyalty Jack) all can take down barriers with frightening ease. Shields? Childs play; Garrus and Kasumi have Overload, and Zaeed has disrupter ammo.

Combined with fact that you get Kasumi and Zaeed so early in the game, you can neglect Miranda almost right out of the gate.
Her ability to increase health of the team is irrelevent when a cover system is involved, and on insanity, you'll get killed extremely quickly with or without a insignificant boost in health. And besides, almost every squaddie has a class power that boosts their health much more than Miranda ever could.

Firstly, combat capabilities are not a part of somebodies character, and shouldn't be factored in when judging them as such.

True, but having a character that's useful to gameplay helps make them more likable; It makes seem as though they're contributing to the game, you're part of a team.

I just did not get that from Miranda. She's always rubbed me the wrong way, no supposed utility in battle is going to change that.

But she has the most versatile skillset of any squadmate. The only Shep who can look her over and dismiss her abilities is a Sentinal.

One of the main reasons i hate her is that she is so damn useful in combat.

[DoomMech]

yorkj86 wrote...

DoomMech wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Holding a squadmate's gimped powerset against them in one's appraisal of their character is silly.  Just saying. 

 Except its not. Having a character be useful to gameplay goes a looooong way to making them more likable. As cold as it sounds, if they're not useful, they are cast aside.

Nope.  You know how powerful Jack is.   You're shown how powerful Jack is.  She's gimped for gameplay mechanics reasons.  Gameplay mechanics bend lore, and are not reflective of the reality of things.  Gameplay mechanics are a meta-part of the game.  Disliking her for that is meta-gaming, and, as such, bad roleplaying.

I f there was such a thing as bad roleplaying. Roleplaying went out the window when Bioware started focusing on whiz bang shooty fun.

By the way what is meta-gaming? I preety sure that's a tabletop thing.

[DoomMech]

AntiChri5 wrote...

DoomMech wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

But allow me to re-bunk Miranda sucking in combat by saying that Sentinal, Engineer and Soldier Shepard all have extremely effective armor killing attacks and weapons. As for barrier busting, Sentinal Shepard, Adept Shepard and Thane (and post loyalty Jack) all can take down barriers with frightening ease. Shields? Childs play; Garrus and Kasumi have Overload, and Zaeed has disrupter ammo.

Combined with fact that you get Kasumi and Zaeed so early in the game, you can neglect Miranda almost right out of the gate.
Her ability to increase health of the team is irrelevent when a cover system is involved, and on insanity, you'll get killed extremely quickly with or without a insignificant boost in health. And besides, almost every squaddie has a class power that boosts their health much more than Miranda ever could.

Firstly, combat capabilities are not a part of somebodies character, and shouldn't be factored in when judging them as such.

True, but having a character that's useful to gameplay helps make them more likable; It makes seem as though they're contributing to the game, you're part of a team.

I just did not get that from Miranda. She's always rubbed me the wrong way, no supposed utility in battle is going to change that.

But she has the most versatile skillset of any squadmate. The only Shep who can look her over and dismiss her abilities is a Sentinal.

One of the main reasons i hate her is that she is so damn useful in combat.

Funny, whenever I use her, she drops dead first<_<

[Mresa]

I don't exactly hate Jacob, it's just how plain and boring he is. Also since I'm always playing as FemShep, the way she talks to Jacob...

Modifié par Mresa, 25 octobre 2010 - 09:19 .

[DoomMech]

Mondo47 wrote...

Characters I don't like...

To be honest, there's not that many; I found there were a lot more characters that irritated the hell out of me in Dragon Age than Mass Effect (have I got tired of mentioning how much I absolutely hate that whining manchild Alistair yet, or Morrigan - the know-it-all queen of double-standards and pointless b*tching... errm... no).

None of the principle characters at least got my goat in ME2; the only characters I had any kind of dislike for were Miranda and Kelly, and that has certainly lessened as time has passed (at least in Miranda's case... Kelly will forevermore be someone who feeds Shepard's fish and nothing else). My beef with Miranda was her attitude; her arrogance and aloofness were only trumped by her constant harping about her superiority... oh, you've been tailored to be smarter, fitter, more attractive and longer-lived than any other human, and yet you spend all your time b*tching about it. It's the same reason I hate the oh-woe-is-me-I'll-never-see-another-sunrise variety of vampire in pop culture. Poor you - you're better than everyone else. I understand the dichotomy of having everything and yet wishing for mundanity; of wanting to fit in, be normal, not have to constantly struggle to meet expectations of one as perfect as yourself, it just gets tiresome if you make no effort to be normal other than banging on about how fantastic you are. A lot of people like to make comparisons to Jack there in the sucky attitude department, but frankly I think torture, rape, imprisonment and a desperate existance illicit a lot more sympathy and patience in me than someone who at first comes across as little more than a poor little rich girl who, to steal a metaphore from Joker, acts like she has tenure at F.U.

My sympathy for her was nonexistant - until the LotSB dossiers revealed her to be much more human; a woman with desires and sadnesses I could understand and relate to at last. It made her much more human for the fact she was trying to scratch her itches and was, well, not so superior after all. I could meet her halfway then, and now while I hardly ever use her in-game, I do see the woman underneath the costume (both literal and metaphorical) - one I can understand as another woman and even like a little. That has surprised me a lot.

Characters I really don't like are limited to supporting players. The only one that really makes me squirm is Aria. Yeah, I know, she's very popular, but I can't stand her. I understand that she is obviously a powerful underworld figure, but the entire you-do-as-I-say-here routine just makes me want to storm into Afterlife with the Normandy crew and execute the smirking cow. At the end of the day, Shepard has slain one of the galaxy's secret machine-gods; he's looked Mecha-Cthulhu in the eye and laughed in his steely betentacled chops... and yet I'm supposed to take this "don't f*ck with Aria" shpiel at face value? Yeah, you have a whole bunch of mooks to back you up, sweetheart, but it does not impress me in the slightest... to quote The Juggernaut "do you know who I am?" I'd forgive it all if she was even remotely loveable, humourous or empathic, but I get nothing from her other than a level of irritation I can only compare to cistitis. Someone as long-lived, experienced and cautious as Aria is supposed to be would surely be a lot more careful in her dealings with Shepard - a person that has been places and done things no other human has and even cheated death... for her to be so blase and self-aggrandising strikes me as an attempt to nod to The Matrix's Merovingian; one that fails for me because at least he had the redeeming fact of being funny.

There really wasn't anyone else I disliked; I think the writers on the whole did an outstanding job on both the games. Sure, almost every character has a couple of minor quibbles that people point out, and rightly so, but in all honesty, I think the only character I never liked (and by now probably never will) is Aria... it's obviously down to me, mind you - no more than my opinion, and no intention to stand on anyone's toes.

I completly forgot about Aria. I wanted to use a slightly different Matrix-ism: "Dodge This" *BLAM*

[Carmen_Willow]

Jack is my least favorite character. As the leader of a crack team of professionals, I find her to be a rage-addicted person who is likely to destroy the mission with her need to be constantly, violently angry. As the Commander, I don't care that she's been tortured as a child (wah, wah, wah) and is a powerful biotic. She's like a incendiary bomb with a faulty switch that could blow up at any moment without any reason. I wish that we could send squad mates packing as you could do with companions in Dragon Age. Jack would be booted off the team at the first available stop off. I don't use her in the game any longer and I would never support her in her raging, violent temper tantrum. She's a raging 5 year old in an adult body and she's right about being a dangerous b****. I don't need her skills that much.



I also don't like my FemShep doing the Mae West, hubba hubba come-on toward Jacob when you try to romance him. In my view he has grounds for an EEOC complaint of sexual harrassment in those exchanges. As FemShep, I am the person in charge of a quasi military unit. Her kind of fraternization is so wrong, I don't even know where to start. Shame on BioWare for this heavyhandedness. No wonder Jacob seems like such an ass. He's probably totally embarrassed by her blatant behavior.



I also don't like the complete "I am a boy-toy" look that Miranda is forced to wear in this game. She should be dressed realistically both on board the vessel and while on a mission The game loses credibility when the crew doesn't wear appropriate combat wear.

[Ryzaki]

Udina. Good god Udina. He's an overly arrogant annoying urgh. And the fact that I know he's councilor no matter what I do makes me rage.