531 réponses à ce sujet

[achwas]

Raokin wrote...

achwas wrote...
Thane :
Very clichee, but the grandiose (by far the best) voice-acting saves a lot. Nice missions, nice skills, but lacks some real depths and motivations. Unfortunately not even 5% as stylish as he was in the trailers, and - seriously - he is being outclassed as a sniper by Legion ? .... shameful^^

Lacks real depth and motivation? Care to explain?

If you've gone through the romance dialogue, which adds to his character, it will become clear that Thane is one of, if not the deepest character in the game from an intellectual and emotional perspective.

I have to admit I never romanced him ingame because I found the dialog option to initiate extremely rude and insensitive. Straight from his dead wife to getting into his ... ahem...pants....

BUT

His entire life "bred for his role, owes fealty due to an inherited moral debtm loves a sweet innocent and gentle entity which gets taken from him far too early by outside forces, alienated from his offspring, seeks to redeem himself in the autumn days of his life"   is....... utterly a staple of bland and mediocre fantasy, roamntic horror  and space opera.
It has been done dozens of times in the last decade alone, yet every year another crop of "the assassin who redeems himself" books/triology gets published, whether as pulp, romantic fiction or fantasy adventure.

Sorry, it's the equivalent of the "suffering vampire" or the "feisty and under-estimated kitchen help saving the realm".
And there is neither a good or at least innovative twist to this tired story, nor is it implemented well-enough to be entertaining despite being clichee. Say, like Smara's loyalty mission with the archetypal "female vampiric predator stalked by the upright and pure relation" who feels responsible for the predator's actions. There we have the interesting warming up to Morinth actions, and the cute twist that we can actually get away with recruiting the "evil" predator instead.

Hence that's why I find Thane's "crime story" LM rather lacking, same as his "I want to redeem myself" motivation or his backstory. of course, YMMV
The romance angle (as gathered from youtube) is about as deep, authentic and believable as "Twilight" There is of course the small mercy that Thane  does not "sparkle".

Modifié par achwas, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Nightwriter]

EbonyKnight wrote...

Collider wrote...

If Ashley isn't racist, they did a poor job of conveying that.

How do you define 'racism'?

I'm betting both Collider and me think of racism as prejudice or biased attitudes toward a different race just for being a different race.

For instance, if Garrus had been a human C-Sec officer who was grafted onto the Normandy, I'm betting she wouldn't have mentioned him at all.

However, I do think racist is too strong a term. Ash is slightly prejudiced, but she's not a Terra Firma zealot.

[Lord_Caledore]

I feel that some of Ash's concerns are perfectly valid. The Normandy is a highly-advanced Alliance warship, and allowing non-Alliance personnel access to the ship systems is a somewhat questionable decision. A little caution is definitely warranted. That's not prejudice, that's common sense. Now I'm not saying all of her motivations aren't motivated by distrust of aliens in general, but in some cases, she has valid concerns. I always thought that her assessment of the Council was pretty spot-on, but I'm sure opinions differ on that.

Anyway, everyone's a little bit racist!

Modifié par Lord_Caledore, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[SpiderFan1217]

It's like the OP just read a list of my favorite characters and just started insulting them. (Except Miranda. Don't much like her.) As for people I don't like:
Miranda: too cliched.
TIM: Again too cliched. I could see every move he made form a mile away.
Conrad: Cause I DID NOT shoot him in the foot.
Legion: I'm not really sure why I don't like him. Just don't.
Mordin: ^same^

Modifié par SpiderFan1217, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...

EbonyKnight wrote...
How do you define 'racism'?

I'm betting both Collider and me think of racism as prejudice or biased attitudes toward a different race just for being a different race.

There is something to be said about racism borne of ignorance versus racism borne of maliciousness, though. Oftentimes, those who use the term "racist" against Ashley is playing to the latter when I think she's really the former. The former is something that can be rectified through experience. However, damage done to her characterization for simple lack of clarifying.

Well, actually, I get the impression those who label her as racist do think she is one out of maliciousness and unable/unwilling to change.

Also, there's a bit of a intertwining of racial undertones with nationalistic ones. Same difference to some, but I don't normally see someone accused of racism for chanting "U S A! U S A!" Ashley's very much "Go Earth!"

And yes, if you wanted to, you could go on about how racism borne of maliciousness is also an evolution of racism borne of ignorance.

Modifié par Pacifien, 26 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[achwas]

Getorex wrote...
For the love of Cthulhu, writers and artists, STOP WITH THAT ...........

VERY quotable, I so salute you for this ^ 

Modifié par achwas, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Nightwriter]

Lord_Caledore wrote...

I feel that some of Ash's concerns are perfectly valid. The Normandy is a highly-advanced Alliance warship, and allowing non-Alliance personnel access to the ship systems is a somewhat questionable decision. A little caution is definitely warranted. That's not prejudice, that's common sense. Now I'm not saying all of her motivations aren't motivated by distrust of aliens in general, but in some cases, she has valid concerns. I always thought that her assessment of the Council was pretty spot-on, but I'm sure opinions differ on that.

The turians co-developed the Normandy so I don't really see what information Garrus could give away.

Wrex could be interpreted as a possible threat if he weren't being constantly watched by endlessly rotating shifts of personnel, but what puzzles me is Ashley mentions him and not Tali, who is actually in engineering 24/7 looking at our ship schematics.

Lord_Caledore wrote...

Anyway, everyone's a little bit racist!

This is the most awesome song I have ever heard.

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...
The turians co-developed the Normandy so I don't really see what information Garrus could give away.

Fleet deployments. IFF codes. Alliance comm encryption keys. Anything the Alliance would put in a warship without turian help.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

EbonyKnight wrote...
How do you define 'racism'?

I'm betting both Collider and me think of racism as prejudice or biased attitudes toward a different race just for being a different race.

There is something to be said about racism borne of ignorance versus racism borne of maliciousness, though. Oftentimes, those who use the term "racist" against Ashley is playing to the latter when I think she's really the former. The former is something that can be rectified through experience. However, damage done to her characterization for simple lack of clarifying.

Well, actually, I get the impression those who label her as racist do think she is one out of maliciousness and unable/unwilling to change.

Also, there's a bit of a intertwining of racial undertones with nationalistic ones. Same difference to some, but I don't normally see someone accused of racism for chanting "U S A! U S A!" Ashley's very much "Go Earth!"

And yes, if you wanted to, you could go on about how racism borne of maliciousness is also an evolution of racism borne of ignorance.

I sense no maliciousness, but I do sense hostility.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
I sense no maliciousness, but I do sense hostility.

Well, you don't need racism for that.

[Nightwriter]

It's a small difference, easy to overlook. You always hear them referred to as the "Citadel races" or the "Council races", not the "Council species", so the word "race" is sort of driven into your head and that's the word you use before you really think about it. The game also seems to use "race" and "species" interchangeably, so it's not a totally invalid term, it just evokes an emotional connotation beyond what Ashley actually deserves.

[Therion942]

[Edit: Discussing the state of the thread on the forums is off-topic. Don't do it. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 26 octobre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Getorex]

easygame88 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Ash. Found her very physically appealing (reminds me of someone but can't put a real face to her) but her religion and racist leanings were annoying. Lose the religion and the alien hate and you would be quite hot Ash. I found her very effective as a teammate because she had THE highest combat scoring addition to your capabilities. Problematic that she lacked any and all tech OR biotic capabilities. EVERYONE should at least have some tech ability if they aren't a biotic. Tech is off-the-shelf!

Wait, being religious is a bad thing?

In general (and in the 22nd Century turning 23rd)...yes. It means narrow judgementalism, parochial moralism, narrow mind, closed mind, preachiness, belief in magic, etc. I prefer it not be there at all, particularly in a LI (real life and game). Other than that annoying Hanar, the annoying Batarian on Omega, and Ash, there was happily little to none of it in ME. Or, at least, it was kept quiet, low-key, and out of sight and personal. Nice.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 octobre 2010 - 03:27 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I might like or dislike some characters more than others. But I believe that they should all be part of the team. Just because I "dislike" someone's personality is a stupid excuse to kill them off. I hope there would be some serious consequences in ME3. Each one would differ depending on which characters you killed off and how much of your squad/crew came back alive. And I don't want any replacements.

[Getorex]

achwas wrote...

Getorex wrote...
For the love of Cthulhu, writers and artists, STOP WITH THAT ...........

VERY quotable, I so salute you for this ^ 

Yes, my friend. The One True Religion, in real life or game.

Can YOU hear the call of Cthulhu?

[Getorex]

Elyvern wrote...

Why when such threads come up, most people invariably discount the ability of characters to develop and change? Ashley began ME1 hostile to aliens but as the game progresses along, her attitude does change. Same with Jack and Miranda. It's really a damn pity that when faced with a character that elicits a kee-jerk effect right at the start, the tendency is to dismiss them and never give them a chance to prove themselves. I love the idea of character progression for all 3 characters. On the contrary, Garrus was the one who pissed me off. After making attempts to change his attitude in ME1, it's like he threw all of that out of the window and decided to go back to his old path again. If that's the case, why even bother?

I never saw that. It certainly didn't turn up in late-game conversation. Hell, as the possibility of a romance with Ash comes up, she goes into the whole "maybe you like Liara for political reasons" and similar stuff. She also goes on about playing nice with the bug-eyed monsters.

Then let's take ME2 on Freedom's Progress. After all is done she opens her attack on you for being with Cerberus (totally ignoring the fact that you were all but DEAD for two years rather than just blowing her off) with a little bit of "I'm no fan of aliens but..."

I saw no real evolution in her attitude.

[Nightwriter]

Getorex wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Wait, being religious is a bad thing?

In general (and in the 22nd Century turning 23rd)...yes. It means narrow judgementalism, parochial moralism, narrow mind, closed mind, preachiness, belief in magic, etc. I prefer it not be there at all, particularly in a LI (real life and game). Other than that annoying Hanar, the annoying Batarian on Omega, and Ash, there was happily little to none of it in ME. Or, at least, it was kept quiet, low-key, and out of sight and personal. Nice.

What about Mordin? Thane? Samara?

They all exhibit religion and spiritualism. They just don't let it turn them into zealots.

ME has many small religious themes, but they handle it tastefully, so in the end we never look back and think "I wish there was less religion in this game".

[darthbuert]

Zurcior wrote...

I hate that mechanic, Delan, from Horizon. I bust my ass to save the colony while he cowars in a corner like a child, and he has the nerve act like he knows it all. I also don't like how he's so quick to blame the Alliance for his problems. He shouts to the hills about how he doesn't need the Alliance's help, yet he's the one lock in a garage scared for his life. He's a useless piece of trash if you ask me.

This.

[Getorex]

Shavon wrote...

How does a belief in God make someone 'religious?' Did Ashley say she went to Space Church every Sunday? Did Shepard ever stumble upon Ashley praying, or meditating, as Shepard does with Thane? No.



Ashley does not have a religious angle. She has an open belief in God. Two very, very different things.

Liara: mentions belief in many lives somewhat like Buddhists.

Ash: God gives us only one life.

This is religious conceit, not "spirituality". Also her going on with "daddy's watching from heaven" (Ugh...no. He's dead babe, he ain't watchin' from ANYWHERE cuz, ya know, HE'S DEAD.)

I wouldn't have minded a Shep response option after Ash puts it out there that she believes in god and "is that a problem?" along the lines of "Huh, interesting. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster."

[Getorex]

Nightwriter wrote...

Getorex wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Wait, being religious is a bad thing?

In general (and in the 22nd Century turning 23rd)...yes. It means narrow judgementalism, parochial moralism, narrow mind, closed mind, preachiness, belief in magic, etc. I prefer it not be there at all, particularly in a LI (real life and game). Other than that annoying Hanar, the annoying Batarian on Omega, and Ash, there was happily little to none of it in ME. Or, at least, it was kept quiet, low-key, and out of sight and personal. Nice.

What about Mordin? Thane? Samara?

They all exhibit religion and spiritualism. They just don't let it turn them into zealots.

ME has many small religious themes, but they handle it tastefully, so in the end we never look back and think "I wish there was less religion in this game".

Thane's was the most noxious bunch of hooiey I've ever heard. "My BODY did the killing. Not ME. I was just along for the ride."

Space him for that belief.

Samarra's is dysfunctional and unjust but self-consistent (and extremist).

Mordin's is what I would call a benign spiritualism. No express statement of "there IS a god" or "I hope I go to heaven", etc. Very VERY personal and nonpresupposing.

Oh...on another note along the intent of the thread: Chakwas. What a waste of (cartoon) skin! Once Mordin's on board Chakwas is superfluous. MORDIN'S the one on top of the crew and their health (and sexual diseases). Chakwas just sits in her med bay staring vacuously into space. When you enter and nudge her to speak to her, she turns around in a fairly creepy manner (half expecting her to projectile vomit pea soup and yell "your mother wears socks that smell!" in a "demonic" voice. I believe she is a pod person from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Too bad she wasn't at least bangable while you were both getting liquored up on serrice brandy, a little one-off like you can get with Jack or Shiara.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

....am I the only one here who likes thane?

[Sable Phoenix]

Getorex wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Ash. Found her very physically appealing (reminds me of someone but can't put a real face to her) but her religion and racist leanings were annoying. Lose the religion and the alien hate and you would be quite hot Ash. I found her very effective as a teammate because she had THE highest combat scoring addition to your capabilities. Problematic that she lacked any and all tech OR biotic capabilities. EVERYONE should at least have some tech ability if they aren't a biotic. Tech is off-the-shelf!

Wait, being religious is a bad thing?

In general (and in the 22nd Century turning 23rd)...yes. It means narrow judgementalism, parochial moralism, narrow mind, closed mind, preachiness, belief in magic, etc. I prefer it not be there at all, particularly in a LI (real life and game). Other than that annoying Hanar, the annoying Batarian on Omega, and Ash, there was happily little to none of it in ME. Or, at least, it was kept quiet, low-key, and out of sight and personal. Nice.

Ignoring the triple redundancy of what you listed... it also means a statistically significant and large increase in community outreach and charity of all types, as well as a commensurate drop in average crime rate.

Don't point out the bad things, of any institution, without pointing out the good as well.  It just makes you look more prejudiced than the thing you're trying to paint as prejudice.

[Sajuro]

Kazanth wrote...

Jack: Not in a "lol wat a bad character" sense but really, I couldn't help but think there were too many moments where she was way out of line. Miranda is no angel but she absolutely did not deserve the way Jack treated her. If not for the loyalty system I would have sided with Miranda in the catfight without a second thought, why the hell should Miranda apologise for something she had nothing to do with? She tries to calm Jack down after she barges into HER office and Jack responds by biotically throwing a heavy object at her? And then the death threat!? That was just too much.

Jack: -yelling- She should admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong!
Miranda: It wasn't Cerberus, not really. But clearly you're a mistake.
-commence chair throwing after Jack says something about splattering Miranda and torture-
I was under the impression that Miranda had made some comments that instigated the whole fight, and she certaintly didn't help the situation that Shepard saw.