71 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

rozpocet1 wrote...

SENTINEL - Biotic & Tech
Tech Armor (class Power)
+
2 Biotic Powers
+
2 Tech Powers

1. Player classes have acces to fewer weapons.

• Infiltrators use only Sniper Rifles and maybe Pistols.
• Vanguards use only Shotguns and maybe Pistols.
• Adepts, Engineers and Sentinels use only SMGs and maybe Pistols .
• Soldiers use Assault Rifles and maybe 2 additional weapons

since the sentinel is the best tank class which is kindof soldier like, what if the sentinel could pick 1 combat ability? actually i dont like that idea but ill post it anyways.

about the weapons tho id remove SMGs. id give each class the pistol, and allow the player to choose one weapon to tote along rather then designating the sniper rifle to the infiltrator and the shotty to the vangaurd. why cant my adept start with an AR instead of the SMG? really, who frickin cares about using an SMG. im a soldier, but i decided to use the SMG instead of an AR??? come on. the gameplay wouldnt change much at all compareing the SMG adept to the AR adept. id also limit the soldier to being the only class capable at using heavy weapons. my adept cant use an AR but its capable enough to use a heavy? that seems a bit off.

also, im convinced overheating weapons NEED to make a return to ME3.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 octobre 2010 - 05:27 .

[kstarler]

I've seen the concern that I have arise already in this thread (the Oblivion/FO3 super class concern), which is why I would be opposed to this type of change. If Bioware can add some new abilities that each class can evolve, I will be happy. But I'm happy with ME2 as it is, so if they add nothing to the classes, I will be fine with that too.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

I think the reason BioWare made the decision they did when it comes to armor is the same reason they went with small facemasks instead of full on helmets, it makes it so that the characters are individuals instead of different face models plastered on the body models over and over and over again.

Perhaps. It still doesn't really explain why they actually went the distance with some characters (like Grunt and Garrus) but apparently just didn't bother with others (like Miranda or Samara). I don't think anyone would have really been that disappointed if the characters all wore conventional armour a la ME1 - again, something which felt like Bioware changed purely for the sake of change.

[The Spamming Troll]

if they added nothing to ME1 i would have been ecstatic, but thats not the case either. bioware most likely will change things with classes. i mean if im playing my ME3 character in the exact same way im playing my ME2 character, then whats the point of giving me a new game, rather then just more DLC for ME2?



you cant compare oblivions characters to ME characters. oblivion is the worst leveling system ever conceived. i wouldnt think bioware would make ME3s system similar to oblivion. im sure they could add more talents, allow for variety in talents within classes, and add a larger selection of an inventory for weapons and armors. thatd be all the RPG things id need for ME3 to be a somewhat better game then ME2. which is the whole point in creating ME3, to be better then ME2.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

Perhaps. It still doesn't really explain why they actually went the distance with some characters (like Grunt and Garrus) but apparently just didn't bother with others (like Miranda or Samara). I don't think anyone would have really been that disappointed if the characters all wore conventional armour a la ME1 - again, something which felt like Bioware changed purely for the sake of change.

To me it does, Grunt and Garrus look substantially different than your other squadmates by virtue of being different races. Asari and human females all look more or less the same so they went with more form fitting clothing to stress the differences.

Although really so long as straight up armor allows for different body types it's not an issue for me, but when all the human (and asari) characters on my team look identical cause it's just different head models stuck on the same place holder humanoid body type it irks the hell out of me.

I like the fact that Samara, Miranda, and Jack have completely different body types, and if the solution was to remove squadmate armor then so be it. Although as I've said, considering it's 2010 I can't believe it's all that difficult to have a few different models for different armor types.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:36 .

[Omega-202]

In regards to the squadmate armor issue: Why couldn't they just give each squadmate at least 1 "combat" outfit that doesn't make them look ridiculous in a firefight?



Let Miranda and Jack and Samara keep their revealing outfits for on the ship and in non/low combat areas (Citadel, future Kasumi-Loyalty like missions). But for high risk missions, give them each an alternate outfit that actually makes sense.



I'm sorry, but its pretty stupid to have a character like Miranda or Jack on the Flotilla or the "Blood Pack Beacons" mission or the Collector Ship mission because they've both got nothing but tiny breather masks on and plenty of skin showing.



But digressing back to the original point of the thread:

In a new game (ie ME3) the OP's idea seems great. But its not something that could be retrofitted for the ME2 system.



If they overhaul the class system again for the 3rd game or beyond, I'd really like to see this. But they'd really need to change how a lot of powers work and they'd need to make an effort to balance/remove/add certain powers.



One part I'm very much against is the removal of SMG's from non-Soldier classes, especially for Infiltrators who lack punch against heavily shielded enemies. In addition, I don't like the idea to change the way defenses work again. The way it works now is pretty darn good. Shields and armor already do recharge on certain enemies and the last thing we need is invulnerable Barrier using enemies.

[kstarler]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you cant compare oblivions characters to ME characters. oblivion is the worst leveling system ever conceived. i wouldnt think bioware would make ME3s system similar to oblivion. im sure they could add more talents, allow for variety in talents within classes, and add a larger selection of an inventory for weapons and armors. thatd be all the RPG things id need for ME3 to be a somewhat better game then ME2. which is the whole point in creating ME3, to be better then ME2.

It certainly wasn't my intention to compare ME with Oblivion, as they are obviously two entirely different systems of gameplay, leveling, and story telling (even though I disagree about it being a terrible system. Terribly implemented yes, but not a terrible system). It was only to give an example of what I don't want to happen to ME, where there is one way to play the game to its fullest potential, and every other way is gimped, reducing re-playability. I think they did a good job with ME2 of making classes customizable to fit most player's tastes. Of course, some players will not be satisfied with the class system, because they want more, or less, or just something different.

I'm simply concerned that by increasing freedom of choice for classes, we could end up with poor balancing, or less distinct classes, which will take away my desire to play the game more than once or twice.

[kstarler]

Omega-202 wrote...

IIf they overhaul the class system again for the 3rd game or beyond, I'd really like to see this. But they'd really need to change how a lot of powers work and they'd need to make an effort to balance/remove/add certain powers.

One part I'm very much against is the removal of SMG's from non-Soldier classes, especially for Infiltrators who lack punch against heavily shielded enemies. In addition, I don't like the idea to change the way defenses work again. The way it works now is pretty darn good. Shields and armor already do recharge on certain enemies and the last thing we need is invulnerable Barrier using enemies.

Either I missed this or it was posted while I was typing, but I agree. If they overhaul the whole system, then this is probably fine. But if they are using the ME2 system, it concerns me that there will be balancing issues.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
To me it does, Grunt and Garrus look substantially different than your other squadmates by virtue of being different races. Asari and human females all look more or less the same so they went with more form fitting clothing to stress the differences.

Just to clarify, I'm not against the characters looking different. Grunt and Garrus do look substantially different from other team mates, but only partially because of their species. Grunt and Garrus look substantially different to other characters of the same species in the game - clearly, the use of skin-tight clothes and face masks isn't a necessary pre-condition to ensure the wearer looks visibly distinct.

I'm also not sure giving Miranda and Samara Recon Hood/Thane style helmets rather than gimpy face masks would have realistically made them look the same, but it would have gone a long way to making it feel more plausible.

I like the fact that Samara, Miranda, and Jack have completely different body types, and if the solution was to remove squadmate armor then so be it. Although as I've said, considering it's 2010 I can't believe it's all that difficult to have a few different models for different armor types.

Indeed - that's the part I'm not so certain about. I find it difficult to believe that the desire to make the characters look visibly distinct somehow didn't allow a unique armour type for each member of the team. I guess that's where the whole 'wear clothes on the ship, not in space' argument takes off.

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...

In the above case, the question becomes an issue of whether the powers have been properly balanced. Obviously I don't think the current spread of powers are balanced well enough to permit a no-holds-barred approach to selecting skills, but that's a problem with their balance, not of class structure. Restricting the choice to completely exclude player preference isn't really a progressive method of dealing with the balance issue, it's simplistic. Rather than fixing the problem, it's simply moving it to one side

I welcome more customization, all I'm saying it is potentially risky. It's incredibly difficult if not impossible to design (high quality) powers/skills and balance them. Some skills will be 'better' or more effective than others thus making some powers/skills almost redundant.

I think we can agree we don't want the ME Vanguard > Adept to return; when it comes to biotics. You know how much I like Adepts, but if Vanguards could use Pull, Throw and even Warp I wouldn't be playing Adept anymore. Singularity is great and an important part of the Adept's arsenal, but without it; you still have a potent caster who can use Charge too. An even worse (possible) side effect can result in Charge being ignored by a lot of people because other biotic powers will get the job done also. Instead of living on the edge, Charging from one hotspot to the next; you'll end up with a power used primarily in a Coup de Grace style.

There are many things that could improve the current class design, but it ain't all bad - playing Vanguard more or less forces player to use Charge because there isn't an alternative, and Charge is one heck of a power imho.

[davidshooter]

I think Samara, Miranda and Jack are the way they are to appeal to male gamers not because of any technical issue with distinctness or armor. Bioware wanted Miranda's ass, Samara's cleavage and Jack's half naked tatooed look on screen whether in combat, on a hub world or on your ship. I don't think there is any more to it than that.

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

I like the fact that Samara, Miranda, and Jack have completely different body types, and if the solution was to remove squadmate armor then so be it. Although as I've said, considering it's 2010 I can't believe it's all that difficult to have a few different models for different armor types.

Just release a simple mod-tool and be done with it. The community will do the rest. ME2 armor serves no purpose at all. You cannot even change the way you look much (always nice to change outfits now and then; if only for some much needed variation. You'll be looking at your character for a long time after all.

They should also make armor useful. The bonuses armor provide are just numbers, it doesn't matter what gear you wear, gameplay will remain the same. In DA:O you can wear some fire-resistant gear that gives your character a fighting chance against a dragon. Armor has real purpose here; not just a cosmetic one.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I like the fact that Samara, Miranda, and Jack have completely different body types, and if the solution was to remove squadmate armor then so be it. Although as I've said, considering it's 2010 I can't believe it's all that difficult to have a few different models for different armor types.

Just release a simple mod-tool and be done with it. The community will do the rest. ME2 armor serves no purpose at all. You cannot even change the way you look much (always nice to change outfits now and then; if only for some much needed variation. You'll be looking at your character for a long time after all.

They should also make armor useful. The bonuses armor provide are just numbers, it doesn't matter what gear you wear, gameplay will remain the same. In DA:O you can wear some fire-resistant gear that gives your character a fighting chance against a dragon. Armor has real purpose here; not just a cosmetic one.

I think armor also should make a diffrence, but I must admit that it was nice that you could complete the game with no problem in the standard N7 armor. Mostly because it looks the best.

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I welcome more customization, all I'm saying it is potentially risky. It's incredibly difficult if not impossible to design (high quality) powers/skills and balance them. Some skills will be 'better' or more effective than others thus making some powers/skills almost redundant.

I think we can agree we don't want the ME Vanguard > Adept to return; when it comes to biotics. You know how much I like Adepts, but if Vanguards could use Pull, Throw and even Warp I wouldn't be playing Adept anymore. Singularity is great and an important part of the Adept's arsenal, but without it; you still have a potent caster who can use Charge too. An even worse (possible) side effect can result in Charge being ignored by a lot of people because other biotic powers will get the job done also. Instead of living on the edge, Charging from one hotspot to the next; you'll end up with a power used primarily in a Coup de Grace style.

There are many things that could improve the current class design, but it ain't all bad - playing Vanguard more or less forces player to use Charge because there isn't an alternative, and Charge is one heck of a power imho.

.
At the end of the day, any system that permits the player to customise to a good degree is open to abuse. You can't really avoid this.

On the other hand, the old spider-man adage of 'With great power comes great responsibility' holds true here. Ultimately if a player chooses to powergame and cheese out on a charging, warp exploding Vangdept of doom then, obviously, the game becomes extremely easy. If the player doesn't want this or doesn't like this then they only have themselves to blame - this has been normal caveat in RPGs of varying nerd-dom for years. Regardless, I'm not sure this is really something the developer should dictate - in this case they've effectively decided what the player won't and will enjoy, and that will always produce disapproval as the developers aren't omniscient. I can understand such restrictions in a multiplayer game for the sake of overall player enjoyment... but in a single player game, it reeks of being needlessly inflexible.

The Vanguard is probably the best example of where this kind of strategy falls apart. Charge is a cracking power, true, but the class is so ruthlessly intolerant of customisation that it essentially plays only one tactic. You can try other styles of play with the Vanguard but all you'll achieve is a view of how other class would play if they were crap. For a game as long as ME2, I'm not sure intentionally producing such single-minded classes is wise.

Hell, I only play Adepts and Infiltrators now. They're the only two classes that allow a varied yet potent method of play, without having to respec before every mission.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[All-a-Mort]

I rather liked being able to make the squad in ME1 look kinda similar by using the same type/make of armour. Made it feel more like a military fireteam. Certainly they should've given the NPCs proper armour sets. I mean Cerberus give armour sets to Shepard and yet their highest ranking agents are wearing what looks like a catsuit and a surgical mask. If Shep seriously needs full armour and a breather helmet, then it hardly makes sense that the likes of Jack are running about in some sort of cargo pants and something between a boob tube and a bit of masking tape. S'as annoying as RPGs outfitting female characters in chainmail/platemail bikinis so they titillate teenage boys, whilst being clearly entirely useless as actual armour.
I liked in ME1 that the Devlon armour (I think?) was needed on hostile environments, meaning you needed to keep a set of it around. Made the armour sets functional rather than merely cosmetic.

Modifié par All-a-Mort, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .

[sinosleep]

I wouldn't got that far as what classes allow varied style of play, the only class that I think falls into the one way to play it syndrome is the vanguard. I don't think a mattock/widow soldier plays anything like a rev soldier. Same goes for shotgun engineers compared to ar/smg engineers. Weapons in this game make a big enough difference in overall tactics to change things up even if you are using mostly all the same powers in both builds.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

In the above case, the question becomes an issue of whether the powers have been properly balanced. Obviously I don't think the current spread of powers are balanced well enough to permit a no-holds-barred approach to selecting skills, but that's a problem with their balance, not of class structure. Restricting the choice to completely exclude player preference isn't really a progressive method of dealing with the balance issue, it's simplistic. Rather than fixing the problem, it's simply moving it to one side

I welcome more customization, all I'm saying it is potentially risky. It's incredibly difficult if not impossible to design (high quality) powers/skills and balance them. Some skills will be 'better' or more effective than others thus making some powers/skills almost redundant.

I think we can agree we don't want the ME Vanguard > Adept to return; when it comes to biotics. You know how much I like Adepts, but if Vanguards could use Pull, Throw and even Warp I wouldn't be playing Adept anymore. Singularity is great and an important part of the Adept's arsenal, but without it; you still have a potent caster who can use Charge too. An even worse (possible) side effect can result in Charge being ignored by a lot of people because other biotic powers will get the job done also. Instead of living on the edge, Charging from one hotspot to the next; you'll end up with a power used primarily in a Coup de Grace style.

There are many things that could improve the current class design, but it ain't all bad - playing Vanguard more or less forces player to use Charge because there isn't an alternative, and Charge is one heck of a power imho.

man i can argue with you all day bozo. is that alright i call you bozo?!?

anyways the vangaurd might be able to pick a few biotics, but your forgetting they get combat abilities too. so yeah you can have pull/warp like an adept, but youll have weapons/ ammo mods as well. the difference between vangaurds and adepts is very clear compared to what we had ion ME1.

charge get overlooked????? never. tho if there were more abilites that rivaled charge for each class, then wouldnt that be a good thing?

a pull/warp, inferno/disruptor ammo, AR vangaurd isnt any more powerfull then a throw/shockwave, inferno/cryo ammo, shotgun vangaurd. so i dont see how that small of a change would completely throw the balance, or so called balance, of what ME3 could offer. it offers variety, and replayability which are things you seem to enjoy. so whats the problem?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:48 .

[sinosleep]

All-a-Mort wrote...

I rather liked being able to make the squad in ME1 look kinda similar by using the same type/make of armour. Made it feel more like a military fireteam. Certainly they should've given the NPCs proper armour sets. I mean cerberus chuck armour at Shepard and yet there highest ranking agents are wearing what looks like a catsuit and a surgical mask. If Shep seriously needs full armour and a breather helmet, then it hardly makes sense that the likes of Jack are running about in some sort of cargo pants and something between a boob tube and a bit of masking tape. S'as annoying as RPGs outfitting female characters in chainmail/platemail bikinis so they titillate teenage boys, whilst being clearly entirely useless as actual armour.
I liked in ME1 that the Devlon armour (I think?) was needed on hostile environments, meaning you needed to keep a set of it around. Made the armour types functional than merely cosmetic.

I've never understood this argument, who said Shepard NEEDS the armor he wears or a full fledged helmet? Shepard CHOOSES to wear armor and a helmet, I don't think any of the environments you land on in ME 2 outright state corrosive gas, or freezing temperatures. Being in a zero g or low g environment doesn't automatically mean sub-zero temperatures and being in an environment with toxic gases doesn't automatically equate to blister agents either.

I find chainmail bikinis to be a far bigger issue than not wearing armor is in a game featuring biotic barriers and shields.

[davidshooter]

sinosleep wrote...

All-a-Mort wrote...

I rather liked being able to make the squad in ME1 look kinda similar by using the same type/make of armour. Made it feel more like a military fireteam. Certainly they should've given the NPCs proper armour sets. I mean cerberus chuck armour at Shepard and yet there highest ranking agents are wearing what looks like a catsuit and a surgical mask. If Shep seriously needs full armour and a breather helmet, then it hardly makes sense that the likes of Jack are running about in some sort of cargo pants and something between a boob tube and a bit of masking tape. S'as annoying as RPGs outfitting female characters in chainmail/platemail bikinis so they titillate teenage boys, whilst being clearly entirely useless as actual armour.
I liked in ME1 that the Devlon armour (I think?) was needed on hostile environments, meaning you needed to keep a set of it around. Made the armour types functional than merely cosmetic.

I've never understood this argument, who said Shepard NEEDS the armor he wears or a full fledged helmet? Shepard CHOOSES to wear armor and a helmet, I don't think any of the environments you land on in ME 2 outright state corrosive gas, or freezing temperatures. Being in a zero g or low g environment doesn't automatically mean sub-zero temperatures and being in an environment with toxic gases doesn't automatically equate to blister agents either.

I find chainmail bikinis to be a far bigger issue than not wearing armor is in a game featuring biotic barriers and shields.

Shepard looks like a retard with his/her helmet and armor beside the game's female characters in their skimpy 14 year old boy boner wear - at least to me.

Modifié par davidshooter, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:06 .

[sinosleep]

davidshooter wrote...

Shepherd looks like a retard with his/her helmet and armor beside the game's female characters in their skimpy 14 year old boy boner wear - at least to me.

Doesn't look any more retarded than wages wearing bathrobes while fighters wear plate. It's not as if mages don't face enemy archers.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:07 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

I wouldn't got that far as what classes allow varied style of play, the only class that I think falls into the one way to play it syndrome is the vanguard. I don't think a mattock/widow soldier plays anything like a rev soldier. Same goes for shotgun engineers compared to ar/smg engineers. Weapons in this game make a big enough difference in overall tactics to change things up even if you are using mostly all the same powers in both builds.

I think that's where we head off into subjective land, as it largely depends on a player's personal defintion of what constitutes different styles of play. While I can recognise the difference between a mattock and a rev soldier, at the end of the day, I dont really consider shooting things at long range and shooting things at short range to be so radically different to justify calling themselves 'different' any more than what you'd get in any other FPS/TPS.

Considering the styles of play in this game include playing a walking flashbang, a teleporting head butter, The Predator, a wizard and Gordon Freeman, I'm not sure shooting at different ranges is on the same level

[davidshooter]

sinosleep wrote...

davidshooter wrote...

Shepherd looks like a retard with his/her helmet and armor beside the game's female characters in their skimpy 14 year old boy boner wear - at least to me.

Doesn't look any more retarded than wages wearing bathrobes while fighters wear plate. It's not as if mages don't face enemy archers.

I don't really disagree with that - but then I don't like most fantasy games anyway.  ME2's armor discrepancies still look stupid to me regardless of what other genres are doing.

[The Spamming Troll]

i know i dont like how people have to compare everything to everything else. ME stole from alot of different games. its got gears of war shooting, force powers, random RPG elements, an interactive story, blah, and blah.



ME should only be compared to ME. and personally i agree, jacks tittie suspenders look rediculous.

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

I think that's where we head off into subjective land, as it largely depends on a player's personal defintion of what constitutes different styles of play. While I can recognise the difference between a mattock and a rev soldier, at the end of the day, I dont really consider shooting things at long range and shooting things at short range to be so radically different to justify calling themselves 'different' any more than what you'd get in any other FPS/TPS.

Considering the styles of play in this game include playing a walking flashbang, a teleporting head butter, The Predator, a wizard and Gordon Freeman, I'm not sure shooting at different ranges is on the same level

If that's subjective land please tell me where in objective land it is that adepts and infiltrators play in wildly different ways that don't largely revolve around bonus weapon selection. Cause otherwise my post was a subjective reply to your own subjective reply and so bringing up the fact that it was subjective doesn't really acomplish anything.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
Doesn't look any more retarded than wages wearing bathrobes while fighters wear plate. It's not as if mages don't face enemy archers.

To be fair, it's not like there's ever a situation where that goes unexplained. If you can harden your skin to the consistency of stone or prevent the archer from ever shooting in the first place, why would you bother lugging around 30+ kg of steel plate which would make said casting harder?

Though yeah, this is why I prefer playing Eldritch Knights and Arcane Warriors...