159 réponses à ce sujet

[stardazzled]

Rivercurse wrote...
The current system can't be fair, otherwise BW wouldn't be looking for ways to make it fairer (limited number per person, split release times etc).

Yes, and that's why they already are fair. They even try to improve.

Why you take such offence at the suggestion of a loyalty scheme confuses me. That's all.

Because it's unfair and your reaction doesn't even show a hint of being aware of that.

As for "putting the shame on others and dispute them" erm, what?

'Wenn man keinen anderen Ausweg mehr weiß, beschuldigt man einfach andere um von sich abzulenken.' (not a literal translation but the main idea)

Modifié par stardazzled, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:05 .

[GuardianE]

Rivercurse wrote...

The current system can't be fair, otherwise BW wouldn't be looking for ways to make it fairer (limited number per person, split release times etc).

Why you take such offence at the suggestion of a loyalty scheme confuses me. That's all.
As for "putting the shame on others anddispute them" erm, what?

You say that other companies do this?  Name one, please.

Plenty of developers give first sale options to the game community that supports them, namely people on their forums/community and people who own their games... not people that buy the previous 12 iterations of a product.  It just seems like an odd standard to have.

Modifié par GuardianE, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Rivercurse]

stardazzled wrote...

Yes, and that's why they already are fair. They even try to improve.

If the scheme was fair, there would be no need to improve. 

Asking for suggestions from the community, or making refinements to the procedure is an acknowledgement that the current situation is not perfect.

If it was fair already, there would be no need to entertain or encourage feedback or change.

Because it's unfair and your reaction doesn't even show a hint of being aware of that.

Nice opinion.  You don't speak for everyone, and certainly not for me.  Your opinion of what's fair differs from mine, obviously.  Of course my reaction will support my proposal, I made the suggestion.

'Wenn man keinen anderen Ausweg mehr weiß, beschuldigt man einfach andere um von sich abzulenken.' (not a literal translation but the main idea)

That makes even less sense that your last post.

And to the guy above who asked for "an example" of a company that uses a loyalty scheme as if I made the term up .  Google it, pick any result of the ten million you find.

[SIim Charles]

I think it would be cool if they gave frequent customers a small discount or something like that, but the fact remains that these lithos will sell out regardless of whether or not you buy them. It isn't like a game release where every sale matters, here there are far more buyers than there is product, so the store really has no reason to hand out incentives.

[Dan Dark]

Just want to throw this out here quick, since no one's brought it up... BioWare kind of -does- have a loyalty system in place for the lithograph sales. It's called the "BioWare Online Store support" forums, where BioWareStore Jedi often posts a full week or more in advance to let the regular posters know when a new release is coming up, what that release is going to be, and, as the release draws closer, the exact -moment- the lithographs become available for purchase.

Modifié par Dan Dark, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[GuardianE]

Rivercurse wrote...

And to the guy above who asked for "an example" of a company that uses a loyalty scheme as if I made the term up .  Google it, pick any result of the ten million you find.

I know what a Loyalty Scheme is, and what you're proposing isn't one.  I asked for a specific example of guaranteed allotment of a limited product series just because a particular consumer is OCD enough to need every single part of that series.

Loyalty schemes most often refer to incentive rewards involving credit cards.  And it's generally to incite consumers to purchase items at a particular store.  As someone stated earlier, no incentives are necessary for products like these because they generally sell out at full retail.

Dan Dark wrote...

Just want to throw this out here quick,
since no one's brought it up... BioWare kind of -does- have a loyalty
system in place for the lithograph sales. It's called the "BioWare
Online Store support" forums, where BioWareStore Jedi often posts a
full week or more in advance to let the regular posters know when a new
release is coming up, what that release is going to be, and, as the
release draws closer, the exact -moment- the lithographs become
available for purchase.

Exactly.  And that makes sense vs. including only people who own 12 of these things into an exclusive launch.

Well, anyway, I don't really care.  I think the idea proposed by Rivercurse really just doesn't make sense, but it's not going to change the fact that I will do what I need to in order to obtain the lithographs I want.

Modifié par GuardianE, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:29 .

[GuidoTheKillerPimp77]

Jed already provided an "incentive" on the last release by offering a 15% off code for all purchases over $60. That practice, in one form or another, should be continued. It rewards everyone who has enough of an interest in these lithographs to check the boards.

[Rivercurse]

GuardianE wrote...


I know what a Loyalty Scheme is, and what you're proposing isn't one.  I asked for a specific example of guaranteed allotment of a limited product series just because a particular consumer is OCD enough to need every single part of that series.

Loyalty schemes most often refer to incentive rewards involving credit cards.  And it's generally to incite consumers to purchase items at a particular store.  As someone stated earlier, no incentives are necessary for products like these because they generally sell out at full retail.

The loyalty scheme would be to reward customers who continue to support the company through their purchases over time.   After all, if loyal customers who buy every litho didn't exist, do you think they would even still be making them?

The issue is not that they wouldn't sell out otherwise, the issue is with the fact that people hae jobs, go to school, , time zones are different, i work shifts for example.  That's why the current scheme isn't fair to everyone.  If they release these lithographs whilst im on duty then that means I miss out, regardless of the money I have spent over and over again in their store.  Regardless of my interest and desire to purchase the product.  "Tough luck" is not the Bioware attitude, and this is why they are considering a staggered release.

Exactly.  And that makes sense vs. including only people who own 12 of these things into an exclusive launch.

Well, anyway, I don't really care.  I think the idea proposed by Rivercurse really just doesn't make sense, but it's not going to change the fact that I will do what I need to in order to obtain the lithographs I want.

It's got nothing to do with the fact that I own 12 lithographs, that just happens to be the arbitrary number at hand.

What I propose is that Bioware announce the lithograph, announce the number of copies (500), then email their regular customers (perhaps 50-100 of the top purchasers in the past, and a limit to one per customer), and then a week later, they go onto general sale.

This would be a minimum of 400 available to everyone, through either a one-off release, or a time zone specific release.  That is assuming that ALL 100 of the regulars buy the lithographs or respond to the email, so there may even be more than 400 available to all and sundry.

That would be fair as far as I'm concerned.

[DukeOfNukes]

Rivercurse wrote...

I wish there was a prioritising scheme to loyalists who already own like 12 lithographs. I've been waiting for a Tali for a long time, and if I miss out I will not be amused in the slightest.

I made the suggestion in another thread a little before you, and was immediately attacked for being elitist. I've heard of any number of companies in any number of fields giving priority to people that have shown their devotion...not limited to pre-order bonus's and extra DLC for those that buy new (not to mention the BioWare Bazaar)

[GuardianE]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

Rivercurse wrote...

I wish there was a prioritising scheme to loyalists who already own like 12 lithographs. I've been waiting for a Tali for a long time, and if I miss out I will not be amused in the slightest.

I made the suggestion in another thread a little before you, and was immediately attacked for being elitist. I've heard of any number of companies in any number of fields giving priority to people that have shown their devotion...not limited to pre-order bonus's and extra DLC for those that buy new (not to mention the BioWare Bazaar)

Incentives for buying new and pre-order bonuses are completely different.  You're getting the product day one, and it's used as a deterrent for used sale purchases (where the developers see $0 on that transaction).  It's been said multiple times in this thread, but what you're proposing is not for a "loyal fans incentive" program.  What you're proposing is a "repeat buyer" program.  Something that is, frankly, completely unnecessary.  

The question was posed: if we didn't have people that purchased every lithograph, would Bioware still be making them?  The answer is a resounding "yes".  Even if they only sell a quarter of the stock, they're making money on the premium that they're selling them.  And with such low print numbers/popularity of Mass Effect 2, I have no doubt that each lithograph would eventually sell out regardless of whether die hard lithograph collectors existed or not.

As Dan Dark mentioned, these forums are filled with people who love Mass Effect and love Bioware.  We're all part of the same community.  The fact that they're releasing the news here first IS the incentive program. 

Where most people are taking offense is probaby because your statements make it look like "Oh, well because I've bought all the previous lithos, I'm a better fan and should be given special treatment over these other Mass Effect fans."  The way Bioware's handling it now is fine, in my opinion... but if they decide to adopt your tactic, then that's fine too.  I think it's misguided, but fine.

[erik212]

Uh oh, got some drama... I think that between the announcements and other random acts of kindness from Jed (promo code for last sale, random drawing for those few Normandys, early reveal and time estimate), we already have a leg up on most other people. Or it could all just be in my head. I'm just waiting for a whole new wave of people to come here and ask those questions that have been asked and discussed 5 times over.

Modifié par erik212, 24 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Legendaryhawk]

Wow there was a 15% off code O_O I really hope jedi gives us a 15% off code on Friday or.. *shivers* .... a 20% off code. I'd be forced to buy another 1 or 2 lithos.

[Saibh]

You know, interesting that they sort of color-coded them. Thane is in green light, Tali is in blueish light, and Grunt is in orange-red light.

[iamsaige]

Haha Saibh, I just noticed that. This forum needs a rep system. Wait... maybe not, too many sillies for it to work.



Btw, to the discussion previously, Dan Dark said it best, Jedi does let the regulars know what's coming and has been more than accommodating to the community. In fact so has the other guys that work at the store. They even are going to try out changing the release times to help those like me where it actually is 3am for me when they come out. How many companies do you know that do that?

[Galford24]

Legendaryhawk wrote...

Look River, Bioware is not going to clap for you for buying 12 lithos. Also, if you didn't buy those lithos someone else would have. So why should you be praised and rewarded for buying something that would have been bought anyway?

Legendaryhawk wrote...

Ordered a Pragia Litho (my first litho ) yesterday. I hope it comes in perfect condition.

Legendaryhawk wrote...

Wow there was a 15% off code O_O I really hope jedi gives us a 15% off code on Friday or.. *shivers* .... a 20% off code. I'd be forced to buy another 1 or 2 lithos.

You bought ONE litho and you are the FIRST to ask for a discount. I may not have the same opinion as Rivercurse or Duke, but seeing people like you makes me understand them a little bit more.

[DukeOfNukes]

I think you all are over reacting. Neither me or River is saying that BioWare owes us anything...just saying it would be nice, and very curious as to why you all are acting like it shouldn't even be discussed? Maybe not a "loyalty" program or anything of the nature...but methods should be taken to ensure that as many of the lithos as possible land in the hands of the fans, rather than eBay re-sellers...do you disagree?



I purposefully didn't give a number of litho's because people start to go "not everybody can afford that many"...instead of taking it the way you intended...as picking an arbitrary number based on what you have.

[Tennyochan]

Rivercurse wrote...
What I propose is that Bioware announce the lithograph, announce the number of copies (500), then email their regular customers (Perhaps 50-100 of the top purchasers in the past, and a limit to one per customer), and then a week later, they go onto general sale.

This would be a minimum of 400 available to everyone, through either a one-off release, or a time zone specific release.  That is assuming that ALL 100 of the regulars buy the lithographs or respond to the email, so there may even be more than 400 available to all and sundry.

That would be fair as far as I'm concerned.

late to the partyyyy (wait that’s a wizard...whatever)

The 'problem**' bioware has now is that there are so many-fans, and this is a LE product. (the ebay resellers are a minor problem, as we heard with the Normandy selloff). I’m sure they did not foresee these lithos would be so popular when the LE-saren/ME1 was produced. So if you disregard the ebayers, to elevate this 'problem' bioware has been giving their customers a 'heads up'(+minis). Bioware treat all their customers fairly, Yes you are an avid supporter and collector of these lithographs and I’m sure bioware would like you and everyone to own one, despite there time zones.
As someone suggested earlier, perhaps increasing the product amount would help.(*another topic)


I agree with what stardazzeled and GuardianE has said previously, though I would like to add my 2 cents on proposed 'loyalty program/first dips'.  The problem with your Suggestion is that its 'unfair' to the other customers but there are also a few hiccups too with the system.

In theory your suggestion is sound, but let us increase those numbers. perhaps there are another 500 customers like you. or perhaps there is;
-50ppl that purchased 12-lithos/spent $#,
-150ppl that purchased 11-lithos/spent $#,
-50ppl purchasing 10-lithos/spent $#.
this means there is no longer a 'top 50/#' many will strike even. People will also strike even in the 'top 50/#', if they decide not to purchase the next lithograph, no longer making it a 'top 50'.
Also what of those people that purchase multiple lithos- they must have the highest amount of lithos, and be included in this bunch.
It also encourages those to purchase multiple copies even though perhaps they don’t really want them, but would like a leg-up on the sale/customer records.
It also means a person with say 0/4/# lithos will NEVER,EVER be included in this top-loyalty bunch, despite making purchases since. Not being 'fair' to other customers.
(try to see it from the perspective of someone else. or say, if this system was introduced when you first heard of these lithographs. you would not be included in the first batch sale ever.)


'Fair' loyalty programs that stores currently implement are, all customers are offered the same incentives.
-e.g. a membership, point system that gives discounts/freebies or outright. Encouraging you to make more purchases.
-Give a heads up and access on sales before the public.(Now I believe this may represent something similar to what is being suggested here. I will elaborate.)

A store here, Country Road, has this. Basically all membership-customers get informed & access of the sale 1 day before the public- the public meaning someone that just walks past the store, w/o a membership card-which is free. All membership customers have access to said promotion. 

firstly, this would not work because it is an online store. And we currently have something similar with Jedi posting on the forums of release dates. Another point is if bioware offer a 'membership' like the example I used, it would be no use, as it is a L.E product. The Country Road's loyalty membership program is fair because everyone can become a member. This does not work with the suggestion your proposing for other customers.


**another topic. (As someone suggested earlier, perhaps increasing the product amount would help.)
-I’m okay with them increasing the amount sold(as long as they think they can sell that much! e.g. a Normandy vs. a garrus print numbers)
-but I believe some may not favor this as it doesn't feel very 'Limited Edition-y' as others complained about the mini's being produced. (another topic altogether)


I understand where Duke and River are coming from, but your suggestion is not fair and perhaps we can come up with another solution to future 'problems**'. (regardless the, current 3 lithos are going to proceed as normal as this suggestion is quite short notice.)

edit: whoa formating errors

Modifié par tennyochan, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:56 .

[JestersWingman]

Ok, let me preface this by saying that I may not have completely absorbed every idea that's been thrown out in the last couple of pages, but here goes...

What if a certain number of accounts that preordered every lithograph in the previous release are randomly selected to have a single copy of each lithograph in an upcoming release reserved for them to preorder, with the perk that they would receive free shipping and/or some % discount, or maybe a guaranteed low number? They would have to preorder every lithograph in the next release to get the perk, otherwise it's treated as just a normal preorder, and then they naturally wouldn't be eligible for the perk selection process for the next batch of lithographs since they wouldn't have preordered each of the prints. The order would also have to be from their account that they used to place the last order, so it's not an emailed code that they might be able to turn around and just trade/sell. And to reiterate, only a single copy would be set aside in that next release, so if someone wanted to get multiple copies, they'd have to order the extras separately and subject to the usual perk-less standards.

There would be an issue though in how you determined the "next batch", as in whether there are parallel incentive systems for lithographs for each game, or if it's just for all Bioware lithographs in general. Personally, I never got into DA:O and all of my money has been thrown at ME lithos (though I do like the look of that upcoming sweet supersized DA2 one), so I wouldn't be all about a program that required you to buy DA lithos for the perks drawing for an upcoming ME release.

So there would definitely be kinks to clarify and iron out, as with any system, but would this sit alright with people? It has been correctly pointed out a number of times that these forums do serve as a de facto Bioware store membership club in that we do get advanced notice of prints and release dates and even some coupon codes, but I do think some other bonuses would be a nice gesture to reward people's enduring fandom and customer loyalty.

Modifié par JestersWingman, 25 octobre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Ablaz3d]

Those new lithos are sure nice.

[Bioevil087]

First off I can't wait for these to be avaliable I will be getting all 3. Second I think that having a forum list so that we the big fans (I have 7 big and 4 small lithos) who post on the forum can make sure that we get one.

[Dsurian]

@erik212  ...*sigh*...i tried erik, i really tried not to post - unintentionally prolonging this drama...sorry.  But in response to the repetition you're concerned about, a (hopefully)-soon-to-be-released FAQ should clear most of that up...

*nod@ GuardianE, Dan Dark, stardazzled - Agree completely, it seems...

DukeOfNukes wrote...
...methods should be taken to ensure that as many of the lithos as possible land in the hands of the fans, rather than eBay re-sellers...do you disagree?

No...likely, thats exactly what 99.9% of us want.  The problem would be, as it always has been, how to go about it - and the best you(River) can come up with is to organize some list that will somehow be congruent with your very 'unique' superiority complex, likely excluding deserving individuals???  - how would you even start compiling such a list;  "those people who have bought only single Lithos", what about long time consumers like Crjans who buy two on principle?  "those who have bought $X amount of merchandise", what about those who are long time consumers but less financially secure? "those who at least have order history", what about first time buyers (aka. potential big-spenders) - are they somehow undeserving? "those who have shown that they're 'loyal' enough" - what about those who havn't shown enough loyalty monetarily - though have helped out and been active through the Bioware Store forums - do they make the cut? - how would this be measured and compared? (and then helping out will be motivated by greed, as apposed to the current good intentions that abide)...and what about the workload;  compiling and maintaining such a list, sending out significant emails/BSN PM's/tweets/f'book messages to each listed user each time a particular soon-to-be-released, limited edition, piece of merchandise comes around - having to ask if they are even interested, and then if they are, go about somehow providing them with a 'free pass' for each and every forthcoming unique item which will then have to be integrated somehow into the stores webpage(s)???   //...*speechless*

Second-"best solution" being a temporary 12-24hr. limit on Litho purchases after release, down to 1...though, as it has been repeatidly pointed out that one can get around this if they so choose (which surely such discussion is only just further increasing the chance of abuse), this will only slightly hinder ebay re-sellers and just infuriate and overcomplicate procedures for those who simply want multiples for whatever legitimate reasons - much like the gaming industries pitiful attempts at preventing piracy, no?

If anyone actually has a well-thought-out  proposal, I'm sure we'd love to hear it...

DukeOfNukes wrote...
I think you all are over reacting. Neither me or River is saying that BioWare owes us anything...just saying it would be nice, and [I'm] very curious as to why you all are acting like it shouldn't even be discussed?

We arn't 'over' reacting...we're simply 'reacting' to what seems to be a failing in human development.  You're right - Bioware doesn't owe us anything, and I could hardly argue against it being nice if they gave us perks, but to then make complaints concerning how Bioware/Treehouse isn't supposedly being nice enough is...hubristic? possibly malevolent?  simply stupid? - need a better adj...

Discussion that grows, evolves and helps is always encouraged - discussion that demeans and negatively impacts progress generally isn't. Now, can you pick out anything from this discussion thus far that has been helpful or productive?  ...No, not really.  River brings up a theory that she(?) refuses to discuss (def.) and claims that anything short of what she seems to almost demand, including the circumstances that presently exist, would be a failure.  Yes, the system isn't perfect, and it is being improved upon...but just because it's being improved upon does NOT mean that this new theory submitted "needs" to be put into practice...and it really doesn't help your case when your main argument to the opposition at this point seems to still be:

Rivercurse wrote...
Perhaps because if such a scheme was introduced, you might not be offered the new lithographs first?

Despite whatever your point may have been, the implication is fairly clear *nod @GuardianE/stardazzled*.  Your basically trying to reverse the role - instead of the assumed implication of you being the greedy one for proposing such a self-serving proposition, the opposition is now implied to be the greedy one for possibly not being included in the proposed change (Which is really the hilarious part imho since the above quote seems targeted at stardazzled - someone who has (to my knowledge) bought a significant amount of product from Bioware and Visceral - thus, possibly being the one to knock you off your own proposed top 100 VIPurchasers...and yet she's still against it ).  Also, such a defense mechanism has been all-too-common on these boards as of late, hence stardazzled's later comment.  So yes, 'Wenn man keinen anderen Ausweg mehr weiß, beschuldigt man einfach andere um von sich abzulenken.' should make sense - and if you still don't get it after a German Language class (or two), I give up...

Modifié par Dsurian, 25 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[Tennyochan]

@Bioevil087 
I'll only be getting Tali. and waiting for a mini-thane.
they all look so awesome but i don't have room/problems matching. i'll consider mores later

also you'd be surprised how many lurkers are here watching these parts of the forums. i believe we average about 300-800ish different IP views daily.

Modifié par tennyochan, 25 octobre 2010 - 08:29 .

[stardazzled]

I guess it's kind of weird asking for preferential treatment, [...]

That's been your words, Duke. And that's what seperates you from Rivercurse. Because you realized that your suggestion may sound strange. (Not to sound philosophical here, but your words just hit a very different nerve.) I also already said that I understand your intentions but... you know, there are likely more than 500 other people out there (excluding possible eBay sellers) that also want their chance and I don't mind them being lucky. Because I/we already was/were lucky.  I'm always ready for some hunting because hunting is a part of the collector's spirit.

---

Everything else already has been said and done, so thank you for your words. (And thx, for translating my words in the right way. I posted them in German, because I lack English words/terms/phrases for several things.)

Modifié par stardazzled, 25 octobre 2010 - 08:51 .

[milena87]

These new lithos look really nice! Definitely gonna get them...I just need to study some way to get them all on my walls now lol

[Rivercurse]

Dsurian wrote...

Despite whatever your point may have been, the implication is fairly clear *nod @GuardianE/stardazzled*.  Your basically trying to reverse the role - instead of the assumed implication of you being the greedy one for proposing such a self-serving proposition, the opposition is now implied to be the greedy one for possibly not being included in the proposed change (Which is really the hilarious part imho since the above quote seems targeted at stardazzled - someone who has (to my knowledge) bought a significant amount of product from Bioware and Visceral - thus, possibly being the one to knock you off your own proposed top 100 VIPurchasers...and yet she's still against it ).

I have no idea how many lithographs stardazzeld has purchased, nor does it matter to me one bit.  The comment I made is not a defence mechanism, it's the most logical reason I could find for someone choosing not to support my idea, ie- it wouldn't benefit them, so they oppose it.

The fact than you called the proposal self serving made me laugh.  You honestly expect me to suggest a solution that would disadvantage myself?  Why on Earth would I do that?  I'm in this for the lithographs, nothing more.

edit -

Second-"best solution" being a temporary 12-24hr. limit on Litho
purchases after release, down to 1...though, as it has been repeatidly
pointed out that one can get around this if they so choose (which surely
such discussion is only just further increasing the chance of abuse),
this will only slightly hinder ebay re-sellers and just infuriate and
overcomplicate procedures for those who simply want multiples for
whatever legitimate reasons - much like the gaming industries pitiful
attempts at preventing piracy, no?

Now this I agree with

Modifié par Rivercurse, 25 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .