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[SweetPetunia86]

Asepsis wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
*snip*

As far as Maric and Alistair, the main thing that makes me think Alistair may, in fact, be Fiona's child is that Maric does not seem the sort to be sleeping around.  The idea that he forced himself on a serving girl (as Goldanna claims) seems nonsensical, but even dismissing that as an outright fabrication by Goldanna, it just seems somewhat out of character for Maric to go sleeping with a random serving girl.  He doesn't seem the type.  True, he didn't know Fiona long before their encounter, but there certainly seemed to be a connection and it was clearly a relationship he wanted to take seriously.  For him to have a random dalliance with a serving girl, apparently have little to no contact with her for the next three-quarters of a year, and then send her daughter packing with only a coin or two to keep quiet seems so grossly out of character that I find it difficult to believe he would do such a thing.  So, while it's far from certain, I maintain a decent willingness to believe that Alistair is Fiona's son, not so much because it fits, but because the other possibilities seem to not fit.

Kyosha..I think you said it best. Especially when you mention Goldana. It really doesn't seem like Maric would set someone out on the street after their mother died in childbirth. Serving girl or no. Also, Maric was a really sweet man. Him forcing himself on someone does seem out of character. 

Completely agree.  Goldanna  is clearly mistaken to suggest that Maric forced himself on her mother.  Maric was much more of a negotiator and lover than a fighter - rape seems very much out of character for him.  Not to mention he was handsome, extremely charming (even sourpuss Loghain thinks this), wealthy and King - in what world would he ever need to force himself on anyone?

Maric also offered to raise the child and wanted Fiona to move to Denerim.  Why would he make such an offer to an Orlesian Mage Elf without hesitation, but leave a human servant and her child to fend for themselves - it simply does not make sense. 

As Kyosha says - the alternatives simply don't make sense.  I will be highly disappointed if later in the series we find some off the wall theory that changes Maric's character into a rapist. 

I completely agree with all of this. I assumed Goldanna was just being
bitter and spouting nonsense when you first go speak with her, especially after reading the book. I figure it's her way of taking a cheap shot at Alistair for being the King's son. I do not
believe Maric would have done anything like that. It's just icky to think so. I remember the first time I played the game I assumed Maric was some creepy man because of Alistair's quest, but it's obvious that he isn't from the books/when speaking to those who knew him.

Oh my gosh I thought Maric was a creeper too before I read the books. The games do his character no justice. I think that the description in the games seem more like Cailan's character as oppose to Maric. Not that it is said that he is a rapist or anything; he however seems to think himself more entitled because of his lineage unlike his father and Alistair. I think that Anora even says something about Cailan being really unfaithful. Wonder why he didn't turn out more like Maric since he was actually raised by him.  

[Asepsis]

When did Anora say that? I remember something about it being mentioned but I can't remember where exactly, I was beginning to think I was just having a selective memory.



I actually like Cailan though, despite the fact he seemed to have been a ladies man, he was a decent enough guy, even with his immature ideas. Also the fact he is so respectful to all characters despite their origins,and seems earnestly interested in asking them questions about their people makes me think he was a lot better than everyone in the game lets on. At least he got his open mindedness from his Dad. I'm betting if he hadn't died at Ostagar he would have matured up and been a really great King like his Dad. Too bad he had to die.

[Addai]

Asepsis wrote...

When did Anora say that? I remember something about it being mentioned but I can't remember where exactly, I was beginning to think I was just having a selective memory.

She talks about it if you are setting up the Alistair marriage and in a romance with him.  "Cailan had his women.  He was discreet, but I always knew."  It could be true, or it could be Anora trying to get you to feel sorry for her.  She tries a couple different methods to get you to bug out on Alistair, including batting her eyelashes and implying he's going to fall for her instead eventually.  (It's so ON, you frigid... ahem.  )

I actually like Cailan though, despite the fact he seemed to have been a ladies man, he was a decent enough guy, even with his immature ideas. Also the fact he is so respectful to all characters despite their origins,and seems earnestly interested in asking them questions about their people makes me think he was a lot better than everyone in the game lets on. At least he got his open mindedness from his Dad. I'm betting if he hadn't died at Ostagar he would have matured up and been a really great King like his Dad. Too bad he had to die.

Yep I like Cailan, too.  Just wish he had grown up with a mother and a bit more grounding, but if it's true he was going to try marry Celene I don't think that would work out well for him.

[Addai]

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Oh my gosh I thought Maric was a creeper too before I read the books. The games do his character no justice. I think that the description in the games seem more like Cailan's character as oppose to Maric. Not that it is said that he is a rapist or anything; he however seems to think himself more entitled because of his lineage unlike his father and Alistair. I think that Anora even says something about Cailan being really unfaithful. Wonder why he didn't turn out more like Maric since he was actually raised by him.  

As I said above, Anora's only lying when her lips are moving, so take her word for whatever you think it's worth.  But I do think Alistair is more like Maric than Cailan was, because both of them had a rough upbringing/ youth so their natural amiability and idealism got tempered.

[Mnemnosyne]

Cailan's behavior during the short times you meet him is also, in my opinion, specifically meant to make you like him.  They have a very short time to get you to like this character before killing him, and they do a damned good job at it.

Cailan though, as likeable as he is, is...questionable for someone who is in charge.  His eagerness for the war against the darkspawn, the fact that he actually hopes it's a Blight so he'll get to face an Archdemon, without consideration for how many people are going to die in such a war, shows a lack of understanding that one would have hoped he would have gotten over by that point.  Maric understood losses in battle and how terrible war was even from the start, while Cailan, even after numerous battles with the darkspawn, which admittedly they have been winning easily at that point, but not without losses, seems oblivious to the cost of battle.

I think Loghain was basically right about him - he and Maric were similar, but Maric was more experienced even from the start, since he grew up on the run and at war.  Cailan seemed to have never actually known war, so he didn't understand the costs or the difficulties involved, he just knew about the stories and the glory.

In general though, Cailan seemed like a good king for a time of peace.  Even though he clearly liked glory and perhaps he preferred to leave many things to Anora, he also had at least some political insight, as observed from the letters between him and the Empress of Orlais.  On the other hand, those can also be construed as a sign of his naivety, depending on the actual intentions of the Empress, which we will probably never know.  It is entirely possible that she was planning to eventually doublecross him, as Loghain suspected.

[SweetPetunia86]

Damn!! I have never got the dialogue when she says that Alistair will fall for her eventually. How arrogant. I too think that Cailan's plans to get in bed with Orlais would have failed as well. Not only do I think that politically he was immature and Celene would have just been running Fereldan, I think the Fereldans would have rebelled. Thirty years is not enough time for the people of Fereldan to get over Orlesian rule. The Orlesian occupation was an extremely dark and oppressive time for the country. Many of the people who fought in the war were still alive. I don't know if it is just me, but, I think that it was a little disrespectful to his people.

Modifié par SweetPetunia86, 28 octobre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Asepsis]

Addai67 wrote...

Asepsis wrote...

When did Anora say that? I remember something about it being mentioned but I can't remember where exactly, I was beginning to think I was just having a selective memory.

She talks about it if you are setting up the Alistair marriage and in a romance with him.  "Cailan had his women.  He was discreet, but I always knew."  It could be true, or it could be Anora trying to get you to feel sorry for her.  She tries a couple different methods to get you to bug out on Alistair, including batting her eyelashes and implying he's going to fall for her instead eventually.  (It's so ON, you frigid... ahem.  )

I actually like Cailan though, despite the fact he seemed to have been a ladies man, he was a decent enough guy, even with his immature ideas. Also the fact he is so respectful to all characters despite their origins,and seems earnestly interested in asking them questions about their people makes me think he was a lot better than everyone in the game lets on. At least he got his open mindedness from his Dad. I'm betting if he hadn't died at Ostagar he would have matured up and been a really great King like his Dad. Too bad he had to die.

Yep I like Cailan, too.  Just wish he had grown up with a mother and a bit more grounding, but if it's true he was going to try marry Celene I don't think that would work out well for him.

OMG i never caught that! *runs off to speak to Anora* Bah! Poor Alistair!

Alistair is a bit more grounded, although he can be just as immature (Don't get me wrong I love Alistair).

I think Rowan would have done Cailan a world of good. I agree, I'm 100% against the Orlesians coming back to Ferelden (I don't include the Wardens in this), but I never got the impression Cailan was going to marry Celene. Also I figured it was more of a "leets be frands!" type of deal with the Empress. I mean, they probably were hooking up on occasion, but I think Cailan would have stayed with Anora (For what that's worth). He does defend her against Eamon right? From what I  remember reading anyhow. I do hope he wouldn't have let Orlais right back in to take over again, that would have been an epic fail. I'm all for them working together though.

I haven't installed Return to Ostagar yet on my new computer, I need to do that and replay it, my memory is getting rusted and I want to be sharp on my DA:O lore before starting DA2.

[SweetPetunia86]

Unfortunately, Gaider confirms that Cailan was in fact going to leave Anora for Celene. Look on the DA:O wiki pages. He took it out of the main plot and made it DLC. I'm with you on them working together to stop the Blight, but, marrying each other? I thought that was not the best move. I wonder what would have happened if Loghain had called a Landsmeet against Cailan. Surely, he had enough recognition within the country; he could have made Cailan change his mind. Maybe having his mother around would have done him some good. I think he just made a lot of silly mistakes, even with advisors.

Modifié par SweetPetunia86, 28 octobre 2010 - 01:39 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Interesting. If Cailan was considering marrying the Empress of Orlais - especially if Loghain knew or suspected, which would finally explain what the king's guard says that Loghain and Cailan were arguing about related to the Queen - it changes a lot about my understanding of Loghain's motivations and intentions.

[ejoslin]

In RtO, though, Loghain didn't know, and was genuinely ticked when he learned. The story changed a bit, his motivation was that he thought the battle was lost. He did not know.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[jpdipity]

Koyasha wrote...

Interesting. If Cailan was considering marrying the Empress of Orlais - especially if Loghain knew or suspected, which would finally explain what the king's guard says that Loghain and Cailan were arguing about related to the Queen - it changes a lot about my understanding of Loghain's motivations and intentions.

The story changed.  So, in the game, Loghain is unaware of Cailan's plans with Celene until RtO. 

Loghain claims that he withdrew from Ostagar because the battle was lost.  However, Gaider also says that Loghain considered leaving before the battle even began, but had not made the decision to leave until that very moment.  Gaider further states that he "thinks" Loghain would have saved Cailan if he could, but Gaider implies that Loghain's perception may have been skewed.  

So, we really don't know Loghain's intentions or motivations.  Gaider has left that wide open for the player to interpret.

There are a lot of little things in the game like the line you mention that make me think a lot of the Cailan/Celene stuff was not entirely cut properly.  It really is too bad.

[Addai]

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Unfortunately, Gaider confirms that Cailan was in fact going to leave Anora for Celene. Look on the DA:O wiki pages. He took it out of the main plot and made it DLC. I'm with you on them working together to stop the Blight, but, marrying each other? I thought that was not the best move. I wonder what would have happened if Loghain had called a Landsmeet against Cailan. Surely, he had enough recognition within the country; he could have made Cailan change his mind. Maybe having his mother around would have done him some good. I think he just made a lot of silly mistakes, even with advisors.

Yeah, I know what Gaider said, but since it was an undeveloped story line I'm reluctant to put it in definite terms.  Because he had it in mind doesn't mean he would carry it through, or that it would work.  I consider it canon that he had that in mind, but since the story changed we can't say that he actually would have followed through.

[Asepsis]

Addai67 wrote...

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Unfortunately, Gaider confirms that Cailan was in fact going to leave Anora for Celene. Look on the DA:O wiki pages. He took it out of the main plot and made it DLC. I'm with you on them working together to stop the Blight, but, marrying each other? I thought that was not the best move. I wonder what would have happened if Loghain had called a Landsmeet against Cailan. Surely, he had enough recognition within the country; he could have made Cailan change his mind. Maybe having his mother around would have done him some good. I think he just made a lot of silly mistakes, even with advisors.

Yeah, I know what Gaider said, but since it was an undeveloped story line I'm reluctant to put it in definite terms.  Because he had it in mind doesn't mean he would carry it through, or that it would work.  I consider it canon that he had that in mind, but since the story changed we can't say that he actually would have followed through.

Was this in an interview or on the forums? I'd like to read it, sounds interesting. If that is so I'm really dissapointed. :(However in Return to Ostagar, I read that Loghain didn't know that was what Cailan was thinking. So depressing if he was seriously considering it.

How did the story change though? Was this before the DLC was released? I'm kind of confused now, lol, I didn't get onto the forums until 3 months ago.

[SweetPetunia86]

Go on the Dragon Age Wiki page and look at RTO. It should explain a lot and maybe give a link to a forum where Gaider is commenting on the matter. The Wiki are pretty snarky about what goes up on that website. I trust that they try to cover things as accurately as possible. But like someone else said before; Gaider's job is to trip up the readers and gamers so that we can read into it ourselves. Many times it is nearly impossible to get a straight answer from the devs.

[Addai]

Asepsis wrote...

Was this in an interview or on the forums? I'd like to read it, sounds interesting. If that is so I'm really dissapointed. :(However in Return to Ostagar, I read that Loghain didn't know that was what Cailan was thinking. So depressing if he was seriously considering it.

How did the story change though? Was this before the DLC was released? I'm kind of confused now, lol, I didn't get onto the forums until 3 months ago.

It was in the webcast from PAX, Gaider said they had originally planned a plot where the Landsmeet would happen earlier and Cailan would announce his intention to marry Celene.  The whole plot was scrapped, but they put hints about it back in through Cailan's correspondence in Return to Ostagar.

[Asepsis]

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Go on the Dragon Age Wiki page and
look at RTO. It should explain a lot and maybe give a link to a forum
where Gaider is commenting on the matter. The Wiki are pretty snarky
about what goes up on that website. I trust that they try to cover
things as accurately as possible. But like someone else said before;
Gaider's job is to trip up the readers and gamers so that we can read
into it ourselves. Many times it is nearly impossible to get a straight
answer from the devs.

Addai67 wrote...
It was in the webcast from PAX, Gaider said they had originally planned a plot where the Landsmeet would happen earlier and Cailan would announce his intention to marry Celene.  The whole plot was scrapped, but they put hints about it back in through Cailan's correspondence in Return to Ostagar.

Thanks guys! I'll check those places out!

That would have been really interesting if they put that in game.

[Mnemnosyne]

One more generation down, that might have been acceptable, to have Cailan's future son, for instance, marry the Empress's daughter. Even that might have been cutting it a little too close. Since rule in Ferelden comes from the bottom up, rather than top down like in Orlais, it would be vital that the majority of Ferelden not feel strong animosity with Orlais, and currently, most of the banns, arls, and both teyrns are old enough to have actually fought in the war against Orlais.



If Cailan had announced his intention to leave Anora and marry Celene, I don't doubt that the Landsmeet would have revoked his kingship by a landslide, and chosen either Loghain or Anora as ruler instead.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

jpdipity wrote...

SweetPetunia86 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Duncan is also awfully young to be going to his calling with Alistair as young as he is.  You'd think that would cause him to question "30 years" as Duncan obviously had much less.

Depends on how old Cailan is, really.  If he's in his 20's, then yes, if he's in his 30's, not so much.  I don't think Cailan is more than 7, at the oldest, during the Calling, and may be even younger (I do not recall offhand if an exact age was given).  If he was around four or five years old, it seems to fit reasonably well if Cailan is 34 at the time of the Blight.  But, if he's ten years younger, then Duncan's only been a Grey Warden for about 20 years instead of 30.

However, this could be explained by his experiences with that brooch/dagger thing.  Whether intentional or a mistake, it could be said that the dagger didn't completely shield him from the brooch's effects, and that it permanently pushed forward his calling by about ten years.

As far as Maric and Alistair, the main thing that makes me think Alistair may, in fact, be Fiona's child is that Maric does not seem the sort to be sleeping around.  The idea that he forced himself on a serving girl (as Goldanna claims) seems nonsensical, but even dismissing that as an outright fabrication by Goldanna, it just seems somewhat out of character for Maric to go sleeping with a random serving girl.  He doesn't seem the type.  True, he didn't know Fiona long before their encounter, but there certainly seemed to be a connection and it was clearly a relationship he wanted to take seriously.  For him to have a random dalliance with a serving girl, apparently have little to no contact with her for the next three-quarters of a year, and then send her daughter packing with only a coin or two to keep quiet seems so grossly out of character that I find it difficult to believe he would do such a thing.  So, while it's far from certain, I maintain a decent willingness to believe that Alistair is Fiona's son, not so much because it fits, but because the other possibilities seem to not fit.

Kyosha..I think you said it best. Especially when you mention Goldana. It really doesn't seem like Maric would set someone out on the street after their mother died in childbirth. Serving girl or no. Also, Maric was a really sweet man. Him forcing himself on someone does seem out of character. 

Completely agree.  Goldanna  is clearly mistaken to suggest that Maric forced himself on her mother.  Maric was much more of a negotiator and lover than a fighter - rape seems very much out of character for him.  Not to mention he was handsome, extremely charming (even sourpuss Loghain thinks this), wealthy and King - in what world would he ever need to force himself on anyone?

Maric also offered to raise the child and wanted Fiona to move to Denerim.  Why would he make such an offer to an Orlesian Mage Elf without hesitation, but leave a human servant and her child to fend for themselves - it simply does not make sense. 

As Kyosha says - the alternatives simply don't make sense.  I will be highly disappointed if later in the series we find some off the wall theory that changes Maric's character into a rapist. 

.


In regards to Alistair and his family quest when you take him to meet Goldana the more I play the game, this whole quest bugs me more and more,and for three reasons.

1.  Goldana replies to Alistair you're my what?  When Alistair tells Goldana that he is her brother.   
2.  When the dog brings you the child from in front of Goldana's house.  What is your dog trying to tell you?
3.  Female PC has the opportunity to ask Alistair if his friend is an old girl friend. 

What was that all about?

Which chantry was Alistair pawned off on?  Was he sneaking out at night when he got older?  I'd have to say yes.  When Duncan recruited him then it would make sense for Alistair and Duncan to be at the Denermin Compound of the Wardens.

I think Goldana always knew that she wasn't Alistair's sister, but what was she to him exactly?   It was apparent to me that Alistair was digging around about his background and maybe he didn't believe what he had been told as a child.  I'm also getting the impression the more I play the game, that Alistair knew who is mother really was and I've wondered if Duncan told him.

This is all speculation on my part.

[SweetPetunia86]

Koyasha wrote...

One more generation down, that might have been acceptable, to have Cailan's future son, for instance, marry the Empress's daughter. Even that might have been cutting it a little too close. Since rule in Ferelden comes from the bottom up, rather than top down like in Orlais, it would be vital that the majority of Ferelden not feel strong animosity with Orlais, and currently, most of the banns, arls, and both teyrns are old enough to have actually fought in the war against Orlais.

If Cailan had announced his intention to leave Anora and marry Celene, I don't doubt that the Landsmeet would have revoked his kingship by a landslide, and chosen either Loghain or Anora as ruler instead.

My sentiments exactly!! I put this forum up on wiki and eveyone said this could never be....  I felt that if Loghain called a Landsmeet, he could have won it. He was still very respected within Fereldan as being a hero and had a lot of influence. his daughter was a very popular Queen; and as mentioned before many of the men and women in government fought in the rebellion in their youth. No doubt they would have stood against Cailan's decision to leave a perferctly good Fereldan queen to marry royalty from a nation who oppressed them with an iron fist just three decades ago. If an heir was the problem, a bastard could be sired. If it turned out that Cailan was impotent, then he could have used his half brother to impregnate his wife thus continuing the Theirin bloodline. They are practically twins! It would have worked. Oh well....