32 réponses à ce sujet

[El Condoro]

For some reason every search I do on these forums returns a "Oops, this page appears broken" message, so if this has been covered, I apologise.

My basic question is if anyone here uses, has used or knows someone who uses NWN2 for educational purposes and if any advice can be given on how to go about implementing a NWN2 assisted curriculum.

Background
I will be teaching a Year 10 English class (15-16 y.o) next year that focuses on the fantasy genre (and sci fi to a lesser degree). I would love to be able to incorporate and enmesh a NWN2 module with the course, including its assessment tasks.

Questions

• What issues are there regarding copyright?
• Can each student get a legal copy of NWN2 to use at a reasonable price?
• What would be the best way to get around 20 students all able to participate? A PW?
• If so, what would be the best way to set up a PW? Can it be done on a LAN? (I assume it can)
• If it can be done on a LAN what would be the best way to set it up for minimal effect on the LAN?

Design idea
I envisage a very simple world with a world map, a base village and a few locations the players/students can journey to. The base village would be the place to learn the theory associated with each area of study and the challenges and quests at each location the places to put the thoery into practice.

There would be no PvP and collaboration would be encouraged. Violence and death would not be the aim - even 'monsters' may be set to indestructible. The aim would be to solve problems and gain character traits, XP and other rewards through the application of the theoretical knowledge the students receive in class discussions, through assignments and in-game conversation clues.

For example, the village may face a threat (standard fare for FRPGs) and have a town hall meeting to discuss the best way to meet the threat. The players/students will submit an assignment that uses persuasive language techniques to argue the case for their approach and their reward will be based on how well they utilise the techniques discussed in class. With the rewards they are better able to prepare for and solve the next threat/challenge/quest/riddle in the game. These rewards might be XP, gold, character trait increase etc etc.

Each area of study would have a specific in-game location, 'monsters' and challenges that deal with the theory of the study to allow students to practise and consolidate their learning.

I'm excited about the prospect but will stop now to see if anyone has any ideas, comments, suggestions etc.
Cheers

[painofdungeoneternal]

Something like this? Teaching through NWN2

The poster is still active ( "Games for Learning" is the nick name i think here too. )

Yes there is no reason it can't be used for that. I even did an area based on gettysburg which i bet would be useful for history lessons on that battle. Quite a bit you can do overall.

You can do a PW like that, and i'd just do it all as a DM mostly - rewards and such would be for "roleplaying" in gaming terms, but to you that would be "learning". The central server would be free. Biggest issue would be getting enough copies of the game, hopefully you can get them used as you need one cdkey per student.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 24 octobre 2010 - 04:01 .

[El Condoro]

Thanks for the link. It seems the game has not been used for the purposes I want to use it for (as of Jan 10) but I will keep searching. Cheers

[Olblach]

Hi, there are two projects I know of:



Flip by the university of Sussex, and Adventure Author. They seem related one to the other.



http://www.flipproject.org.uk/

[El Condoro]

There is some awesome stuff in that project - the intuitive scripting of Flip could be a real boon to simplifying a fairly difficult task (for many). Thanks for the link.

[Olblach]

Yes it helped me a great deal when writing plugins.

[dunniteowl]

AS pain mentioned, Games for Learning is using NWN2 to teach his grade school child all sorts of things. The fact that he isn't doing what you are intending should not indicate something to stop you. This game is powerful and quite flexible to the point where you are only limited by the skills you can bring to the table and your imagination.

Granted there are some things that simply cannot be done, but what you seem to be intending sounds very doable.

You are definitely going to either:

A) Have to have a very strong background knowledge in using the Toolset, Scripting and Module preparation; or

Enlist some of the students as "Technical Support" from some other classes or possibly you might find a few in your class with the Geek Gene that has the necessary ability to learn these skills. (*who knows, you might find a few or one who already is familiar with NWN2.)

Things to consider: Finding some place (like maybe E-bay or Amazon.com) that might be willing to offer an "educational discount" as well as possibly a "bulk purchase" discount for the school. In such a case, the issue would be whether or not the school administration was competent to the point where they could see the potential value in competing with all those kids playing games out there for learning a game that could actually help them in class. It's probably a sales pitch in hell effort, though one I think worthy of the attempt.

Another consideration is to possibly enlist the aid and support of other teaching staff who might be able to also 'bend' the game to some of their classes. After all, you can make module after module without end and as long as you folks can come up with ideas and derive the talent to create the modules, any class could utilize the game system to teach concepts and principles in an educational format.

As to copyright issues, of course we definitely wish to avoid any such things as copyright infringement, plagiarization and the sort. That said, the game has a pretty lenient view on D&D related issues and as long as it's being used for educational purposes, not being made for profit and not being sold or require a "pay to play" model, then in most liklihood, you're going to be okay as far as that goes.

By all means, continue to ask and post here with questions -- and I mean any questions, including the kind that belong in the Custom Content, Toolset, Scripting or Modules forums, because I honeslty believe the potential to use NWN2 for educational purposes (and in many fields of learning) has barely been scratched. The more interest we can develop in our young to find ways to drive learning, the better I say. At home, when my daughter was still living with me, I simply let her use it and she learned how to make conversations, create characters and script a little bit. On her own, without asking me for help except once in a while, and she got pretty decent at it. All I did was tell her it could be used for whatever she was interested in doing, if she was willing to take the time.

That's a form of education, too. And it's useful in ways most folks don't understand who don't think games provide any real value to the learning in children. I know that's a misperception and so encourage and support any ideas to promote education through play.

Best of luck to you and please, keep coming back with questions.



best regards,

dunniteowl

[painofdungeoneternal]

Or just use the dm client to do it.



Basically teach as the DM, its very powerful and as long as you don't mind "running" the show its not as technical as setting up a completely automated module.

[El Condoro]

@dunniteowl: thanks for your very considered advice - your avatar and username are quite apt!
At this point I have bought a second copy of NWN2 ($10 on eBay) to try to get a handle on the DM client and how it might be used to guide the students in the module. I have done module and campaign design and made some significant inroads into scripting in the last summer break that I hope to extend in the coming months.
I intend to start fairly simple next year, rather than trying to turn the education world on its head! I teach at a Christian school so I also need to deal with any perception of "magic" but I don't think that will be an issue for what I propose to do.

My limited understanding of MP NWN2 would seem to indicate that I can run the game on even a laptop server with students joining the module and interacting. Each student would need a registration code because any online play through Biware Community requires one. Each registration would be owned by the school so they can be used from year to year with each new class.
I won't encourage students designing their own games to start with - that's not the aim of the course - but I will be encouraging their creative juices and trying to develop their own narrative voice through the fantasy genre. Hopefully, it will be more interactive but I don't want the course to get bogged down in the technical aspects of MP NWN2 or the Toolset. What students do outside the classroom is their business and if they want help to design their own worlds or modules I'll give it and point them to these forums.

In the meantime I'll continue to investigate the MP world and how it might be used in the classroom. Concurrent with that, I'll start to plan how to mesh theory, curriculum, assessment and practical application using the Toolset!

Cheers

[El Condoro]

@painofdungeoneternal: thanks about the DM Client advice. I have never used it or seen it in action so I'm a bit hesitant. I'll have a look on YouTube for a guide. If anyone has a good link LMK. Cheers

[painofdungeoneternal]

Look up the DMFI and the DMFI tutorials.

[El Condoro]

Hypothetically, if my school agrees to the programme and enough licences can be purchased for NWN2 from the distributor (Obsidian?) can a single installation, complete with patches, be made into an image that can be downloaded to laptops and reinstalled as required? Can the licence code be manually entered into an installation?



The reason I ask is that kids stuff up computer configs - it's as inevitable as taxes. Techs don't reinstall apps, they download an image and wipe the whole installation. NWN2 is Gb on Gb of install and takes ages to patch via the net so my question relates to whether this can be circumvented and the licence code entered - somewhere - after the image has been reloaded.



Just trying to anticipate the technical aspects of this before going to the school and Obsidian (?) to ask for a bulk discount. Which raises another question: as I have now 2 NWN2 installation CDs could the school purchase the licences (key codes) without needing to have the disks?



Cheers

[Olblach]

Yes no problem, you just need to put different keys on each computer. In fact, you can only run one copy of the game at the same time on one computer that means that two computers can have the same key if they don't run the game at the same time.



Look for the file nwncdkey.ini in your installation directory. You can edit it manually and write the keys there.

[El Condoro]

Fantastic! I was hoping it would be as simple as that. We will be able to make a master installation, complete with patches and everything needed, and reimage the laptops if they need it. All that's needed is the key changed manually - even a copy of each INI file would make that quicker. The save games and user information can be stored on the network drive so they will not be lost. Looking better all the time.

[dunniteowl]

Also, while it's a bit of a PITA to do so, check these locations to download the patch files manually and store them. I explain why in a minute:

NWN2 Official Language Patches -- Neverwinter Nights 2 Vault ; and

Official NWN2 Patches -- Neverwinter Nights 2 Vault

Right at the moment, the site's having some troubles, so don't try it now. However the two sites are listed because of some idiosyncrasies in the files.

The Official Languages link allows you to select the files in a more sane and rational manner. This is a good thing. They are ordered by language and are generally in numerical patch order. This makes it a lot easier to figure out the quickest patch path (least amount of patches to download to get from A -- Z). However, it is missing some files, including some of the latest patch files to get you completely up to date.

The second link, Official Patches is a helter skelter mishmash of languages, numeric disorder and expansion diaspora that makes the human genome project pale in comparison. That said, it does have all the patches in it, so if there are some missing on the other link, you can get the rest here. I verified this just the other day when it was brought to my attention the Official Languages link is missing an intermediary patch file between two other patches.

Now, download the patches in some sort of patching order. If you have only the OC (that's just the original NWN2 game) you'd be looking for a starting title of: "nwn2_pc_english"

If you have also Mask of the Betrayer, then you'd be looking for, "nwn2_pcx1_english" ;

and if you have either Storm of Zehir (or both SoZ and MotB) then you'd be searching for, "nwn2_pcx2_english" files.

Now, the reason you want to manually download them: You can download and save these files as a group of patches that'll get you from a clean install to final patch level and simply burn them to a disc. They can be installed into the main directory of the game's files as is and then, when you launch the game, instead of being connected online, make sure it's offline, and hit the Update button. This will allow you to update offline with all the Official patches necessary to get you up to speed. The updater will inform you that you're offline and then proceed to examine the files for the patches, find them and install them. It's much faster that way and once those files are saved, you've got them in a pinch whether or not you're connected to the net. (It's just how I roll. I have all mine saved this way, I used to have to go to an internet cafe, download the patches, store them on a flash drive, bring them home and then manually patch because of my horrendously bad copper line dialup connection burning up the Information Dirt Road I have out here in the hinterlands of Central Texas.)

That should make your imaging a tad easier on the whole for you, too -- and remember, it's always good to have multiple backup copies of anything you're going to require.



best regards,

dunniteowl

[Vaalyah]

O_O I whish I had a teacher like you!

[dunniteowl]

You do, I'm here pretty much all the time and am happy to help.



dunniteowl

[El Condoro]

@dunniteowl: great advice. Having the upgrades ready to install at any time will be useful, even though a full image of the whole NWN2 folder structure might be easier.

@Vaalyah: There's still a long way to go to get this off the ground - the technical aspect is just one of many. I'd love to teach using NWN2 but it may not be feasible if school/parents/teachers/students don't like the idea. Will cross that bridge when I get to it...

[dunniteowl]

Pitch the educational aspect of gaming and don't even focus on the fact that it's a D&D related game system.



dno

[kamalpoe]

There's a group in the UK building a visual programming language on top of NWN2 for teaching teens. I can't find the page at the monent. Talk to them.

[dunniteowl]

That's the Flip project already indicated I believe in the 4th post, made by Olblach:

http://www.flipproject.org.uk/

Originating from the University of Sussex.

I was just checking this out when I saw your post, kamalpoe.

dno

[dunniteowl]

You know, El Condoro, the University of Sussex team was "provided" (as in without cost, I believe) the games directly from Obsidian Entertainment. You might wish to see if, in principle, they would allow you to conduct your educational experimental program with gratis copies of the game. Couldn't hurt. Worst they could say would be, "No."

dno

[El Condoro]

Exactly what I was thinking. My goal for the next few weeks is to do a 'proof of concept' first and cross the ts and dot the is as much as possible. With the goals and aims clearly stated I will then be able to approach both the school leadership and Obsidian - the responses from both related to each other in a kind of chicken and egg way!

[El Condoro]

Tech question: is it possible to set up NWN2 to be accessible from a single networked location with the user (player) data stored on the users' personal folders?



For instance, the program folder is stored on K:\\NWN2

The user data is stored on L:\\[User My documents]\\Neverwinter Nights



In that way the central program files can be maintained for all users simultaneously. Users can access NWN2 from any networked computer, rather than needing their own installation and computer.



The obvious issue would be the licence key data and how that could be handled, if it can be handled. In case I need to say it, this is not an exercise in trying to circumvent licensing - I intend to procure (purchase?) the needed licences but can foresee some major issues with the way laptops are shared amongst students.



It would be easier to administer if students could access NWN2 from any computer. Only designated network users would be able to access the NWN2 program folder so network traffic will not be affected.



Comments?

[El Condoro]

A couple of questions:

• As per the question above, has anyone tried or does anyone know if NWN2 can be networked? A central location for the program files on a network drive would make keeping it up to date and consistent much easier for 10+ players. The \\\\My documents folder would also be networked for the user data, as now. The main issue, I think, would be the licences, but perhaps this can be done: each time a player uses a BAT file to run NWN2 exe it will copy the ID file into the program folder? That way each player would have a licence and be able to play networked. Just an idea...
  
• Related to the above, instead of downloading 10 copies of NWN2 (available at only $20, which is great with the $AUS having parity with the $US, btw) could Atari supply 10 licence codes? That would negate the need to download 6 (?) Gb of data each time - just copy the one install file, update it, and run with the supplied licence code. If not, it's no biggie really - just a lot more downloading and time.

Are these ideas feasible?
Cheers
Edit: scratch that about the download. Not allowed to download in AUS.

Modifié par El Condoro, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:50 .