38 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

 I may be on my own here but it bugs me whenever creators of a series use only established characters and factions when fleshing out the world. 

An example: Samara, in some of her dialog, describes two events, a run in with the collectors and a fight with Nihilus. To me that's just lazy and unrealistic. The Collectors are enigmatic and rare. Most people outside of the terminus systems haven't seen one and even most people in the terminus systems haven't. To think that Samara did is very highly unlikely, and completely unnecessary. It seems like a shallow attempt to care about the story, but for me at least it has the opposite effect.

And with Nihilus, what are the odds that Samara really fought the only Spectre Shepard has ever met? Slim to none for many many reasons. 

To me, these sorts of things break immersion because it is obvious it is lazy writing which brings attention to the fact that I'm playing a game.

[GodWood]

Nihilus isn't the only spectre Shepard has met.

[GuardianAngel470]

GodWood wrote...

Nihilus isn't the only spectre Shepard has met.

He was when I first heard Samara say that. At least, the first real spectre, that you know, wasn't a traitor.

[Nightwriter]

I can understand why it would break your immersion, but I personally found it really neat that Samara had run into Nihlus. I always felt like he got killed way too quickly and I like hearing about him.

As for the Collectors, what puzzled me is that Samara says she actually doesn't want to hear about them when you first bring her aboard. "If I must kill a man who has done wrong, do I really want to know he is a loving father?"

Yet she has run into them before. She knows they're bad.

[PseudoEthnic]

Samara has lived longer than any member of your crew combined. It's not unbelievable that's she has seen many things in her lifetime. Besides, it's not like her knowledge of this affects the game in any way.

[fongiel24]

I don't think ME has gotten too bad yet. It's not at Star Wars-level yet, anyway, where every single important event in the galaxy involves one of a handful of GL's favourite characters.

[Epic777]

Like tali, luckily having the evidence you needed to start your mission against saren despite geth frying their memory cores.

[GuardianAngel470]

Epic777 wrote...

Like tali, luckily having the evidence you needed to start your mission against saren despite geth frying their memory cores.

Kinda, but since that was the first installment in the franchise it is slightly more believable. What I'm getting at is what the guy above you said, where every event in the game is somehow tied to a known character like Nihilus or the Collectors.

Honestly, Samara could have just as easily said traded to Batarians, and she could have used an unknown spectre instead, but it's like the writers didn't think about how it would sound.

Which actually, the probably didn't, seeing as how several of Shep's questions for Samara sound like they should be on an Anthropology quiz.

[kraidy1117]

Samara is around 900 years old. Your just nit picking.

[Kasen]

There are a few instances of this, perhaps too many, but for the most part I just overlook them. The Samara thing is easily explained by the fact that she has lived for hundreds of years and seen things that few others have. Tali... yeah, that was a bit odd to just happen to have that data, but it's not too big of a deal to me.



The one that kind of struck me as particularly lazy was Garrus on Omega... I was like, "Um... great to see you buddy, but... I thought you were going back to C-Sec or going to be a Spectre?" It just felt too convienent. Same could probably be said for Tali on Freedom's Progress though...



These things happen from time to time in pretty much any fiction though... and real life is often stranger than fiction, so I try not to put too much thought into it.

[CroGamer002]

It's called fan-base.

[GuardianAngel470]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Samara is around 900 years old. Your just nit picking.

Yes and there are trillions of people in the galaxy that have never met a collector and indeed, may not even believe they exist.

Statistically, there is a vastly higher probability that she didn't cross their path. While it is possible, the chances she had met them are so low that it becomes a matter of lazy writing.

And she isn't 900. She's a Matron still, which puts her around 6-700. By 900 she would be a Matriarch, something she is stated as not being.

[kraidy1117]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Samara is around 900 years old. Your just nit picking.

Yes and there are trillions of people in the galaxy that have never met a collector and indeed, may not even believe they exist.

Statistically, there is a vastly higher probability that she didn't cross their path. While it is possible, the chances she had met them are so low that it becomes a matter of lazy writing.

And she isn't 900. She's a Matron still, which puts her around 6-700. By 900 she would be a Matriarch, something she is stated as not being.

Do you even listen to characters? She is almost a thousand years old, she says so. That means she is in her early 900s. Also she only knew about the Colelctors becauset he gang she was with made a deal with them.

[Zulu_DFA]

What about all the ME1 NPC cameos?

[Nightwriter]

There weren't enough ME1 NPC cameos.

[The_Numerator]

As far as Samara goes, on the one hand she says she's "nearly a thousand years old", and on the other hand, "a Justicar's biotic abilities rival those of Asari matriarchs".

So take that as you like.

But candidly, I can't remember anything else pertinent about her just now.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:27 .

[GuardianAngel470]

kraidy1117 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Samara is around 900 years old. Your just nit picking.

Yes and there are trillions of people in the galaxy that have never met a collector and indeed, may not even believe they exist.

Statistically, there is a vastly higher probability that she didn't cross their path. While it is possible, the chances she had met them are so low that it becomes a matter of lazy writing.

And she isn't 900. She's a Matron still, which puts her around 6-700. By 900 she would be a Matriarch, something she is stated as not being.

Do you even listen to characters? She is almost a thousand years old, she says so. That means she is in her early 900s. Also she only knew about the Colelctors becauset he gang she was with made a deal with them.

Nearly a thousand does not mean 900s. 700 is still nearly a thousand, because nearly a thousand is relative. Nearly a thousand can mean anything, as long as it is relatively accurate.

It is a generalization, not an explicit statement of age. And yes, I listen to the characters, this thread exists becuase of that sole reason. I'm nitpicking two small stories out of dozens on the normandy. That should be proof enough that I listen.

And as the Numerator said, her dossier states she has biotic abilities that rival that of an asari matriarch, which implies that she isn't one.

Please don't insult me by implying I am ignorant. Especially when you are ignoring information given to you in the game.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

There weren't enough ME1 NPC cameos.

Q.E.D.

Bioware is lazy.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Is there anything in the game that isn't immersion breaking? I mean seriously, pretty much everything in the game has now been dubbed immersion breaking by a bunch of nitpickers. The asari are immersion breaking, the collectors are immersion breaking, humans are immersion breaking, anthropomorphic aliens are immersion breaking, quarians saying "boshtet" is immersion breaking, miranda's outfit is immersion breaking, human reaper is immersion breaking, shepard's dialogue is immersion breaking, knives are immersion breaking, samara knowing nihlus is immersion breaking; i've heard it all. Every trivial little thing being dubbed immersion breaking. Perhaps you shouldn't take notice of such trivial little things, and bag on things in ME2 that actually were done poorly; such as the plot, and how ME2 was too standalone, lets all complain about that.

[Christmas Ape]

Samara's exact age is pretty much irrelevant; she's been a Justicar for 400 years, which appears to be where the bulk of her stories come from. Alliance Intelligence estimates suggest there are less than a hundred Spectres at any one time; given how much Spectre and Justicar spheres of interest overlap, it's hardly surprising Samara might have run across several of them. She just only bothers telling you about the time she encountered a Spectre whose name you know, because four hundred years is a lot of stories.

Similarly, over four hundred years, the odds that at no point the Collectors sought samples which would bring them or their agents into conflict with an asari Justicar are slim. Once again, she doesn't bother to tell you about the regular slaver rings she busted, just the one relevant to the mission.

[GuardianAngel470]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Samara's exact age is pretty much irrelevant; she's been a Justicar for 400 years, which appears to be where the bulk of her stories come from. Alliance Intelligence estimates suggest there are less than a hundred Spectres at any one time; given how much Spectre and Justicar spheres of interest overlap, it's hardly surprising Samara might have run across several of them. She just only bothers telling you about the time she encountered a Spectre whose name you know, because four hundred years is a lot of stories.
Similarly, over four hundred years, the odds that at no point the Collectors sought samples which would bring them or their agents into conflict with an asari Justicar are slim. Once again, she doesn't bother to tell you about the regular slaver rings she busted, just the one relevant to the mission.

Actually, her story about the slavers was about when she was a merc as a Maiden, and even if that weren't the case, Justicars stay within asari space. The chances of her running into Nihilus on an asari colony are smaller than that of running into him throughout the galaxy. 

Remember that she was tracking a fugitive that slunk from hiding place to hiding place, isolated colonies that few asari's knew of, let alone a turian spectre. She wasn't going from places like Illium and the Citadel, she was in areas of the galaxy that see very little traffic.

Yes it is possible that she might find Nihilus there, but my point is that why bother using him at all? Why use a character that you have to go to such lengths to justify her meeting? That's why it's lazy.

There is a higher probability that she would have met a random spectre that was asari over those same 400 years than finding a turian who was about as old as Shepard I'd guess.  It is more likely that there will be a random encounter than it is for there to be a coincidental encounter. 

[GuardianAngel470]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Is there anything in the game that isn't immersion breaking? I mean seriously, pretty much everything in the game has now been dubbed immersion breaking by a bunch of nitpickers. The asari are immersion breaking, the collectors are immersion breaking, humans are immersion breaking, anthropomorphic aliens are immersion breaking, quarians saying "boshtet" is immersion breaking, miranda's outfit is immersion breaking, human reaper is immersion breaking, shepard's dialogue is immersion breaking, knives are immersion breaking, samara knowing nihlus is immersion breaking; i've heard it all. Every trivial little thing being dubbed immersion breaking. Perhaps you shouldn't take notice of such trivial little things, and bag on things in ME2 that actually were done poorly; such as the plot, and how ME2 was too standalone, lets all complain about that.

Anything that reminds you that what you are watching/participating in is a written work of fiction is called immersion breaking. It is the definition.

And in the title of this thread I already provide the option that I am being picky, but of the whole game, Samara conversations are the only thing that take me out of the game.

There may be a hundred different things that people call immersion breaking, but these are the only things I find to be so.

[Christmas Ape]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Actually, her story about the slavers was about when she was a merc as a Maiden, and even if that weren't the case, Justicars stay within asari space. The chances of her running into Nihilus on an asari colony are smaller than that of running into him throughout the galaxy.

Really? Last I checked, the asari were a Council race and thus granted full jurisdiction to Spectres within their space. I'll grant you I could easily have the historical placement of the slaver event wrong, though it's still a perfectly viable incident. Mercenaries being exactly the kind of people the Collectors deal with and all. 

Remember that she was tracking a fugitive that slunk from hiding place to hiding place, isolated colonies that few asari's knew of, let alone a turian spectre. She wasn't going from places like Illium and the Citadel, she was in areas of the galaxy that see very little traffic.

You mean the sort of places that smugglers and criminally oriented mercenaries love to hole up in? The sort of place that Spectres would thus be likely to be operating in in pursuit of those previously described smugglers and criminally inclined mercenaries?

Yes it is possible that she might find Nihilus there, but my point is that why bother using him at all? Why use a character that you have to go to such lengths to justify her meeting? That's why it's lazy.

I'm normally right here with you, honestly; the number of "It was really his (x) all along!" plot twists I've groaned at defies easy recollection. But in this case, Spectres and Justicars have the same conceptual sphere of interest, and the actual area of Justicar authority is contained within that of Spectre authority, so I find it lends a certain air of "We travel in the same circles, Shepard" to her background.

There is a higher probability that she would have met a random spectre that was asari over those same 400 years than finding a turian who was about as old as Shepard I'd guess.  It is more likely that there will be a random encounter than it is for there to be a coincidental encounter.

True. And she's probably had hundreds of that kind of random encounter.

But who cares? "Once I met a Spectre - you don't know them - and some stuff happened." That's nice, and? I'd think she was going senile if I got some story unrelated to anything going on when I asked about her past.

[GuardianAngel470]

Christmas Ape wrote...

You mean the sort of places that smugglers and criminally oriented mercenaries love to hole up in? The sort of place that Spectres would thus be likely to be operating in in pursuit of those previously described smugglers and criminally inclined mercenaries?

Not necessarily. As for the rest, I guess it just bothers me more when writers don't try and create new stories when they are telling new stories. They should be able to get me to care about a random spectre without resorting to using a character that has already been introduced. 

There are any number of different directions that side story could have gone, and ultimately I chose to hear Samara describe some of her adventures. I was expecting to hear something fresh without any connection to me. Instead I got two out of three stories tied haphazardly to Shepard.

Besides, she didn't know that I knew Nihilus, yet we ended up talking about him.