576 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Also...an assassin being trusted on his/her word? If I couldn't trust his inital promise why should I trust anything that comes after? 

Because that promise came at sword point. Eventually, you'll have to find another incentive.

You *shouldn't* do anything. However, it's pretty clear that if you do make the effort, you can see in-game him being loyal to you and appreciating the idea of being friends with you. Should he betray you after all this, you would have been "innocent" as you made the effort and he still stabbed you in the back. If you made no effort at all, well it's at least partially your fault.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 octobre 2010 - 04:49 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
Heh, well I'm just saying your Warden is kind of an idiot.  You take an assassin in your camp and then don't even bother talking to him or trying to earn his trust, let alone seeing that he's a happy camper in your company, which IMO is something you should do for all your followers.

He gave me a vow. In my warden's opinion she already is showed him trust by letting him live. She expects him to do at least the same in return. No one else needs to be handheld by the Warden but him. He's not a child. 

See, the problem is, you're assuming NO backstory here.  Zevran has a lot of reasons to kill you, actually.  If you took him with you, you'd hear the banters and realize he will die, horribly, if the crows get a hold of him.  Still, he stays with you, fights when asked, etc., until he is forced to make a choice.  And he chooses to let you kill him.

That was his choice when he choose to take the Warden's contract. He wasn't forced to take the Warden as his target. And if he was so afraid of the crows he wouldn't have tried to bargain for his life. (Wouldn't have done it if he was as suicidal as people keep saying either). 

He obviously was NOT trying to kill you -- he was an assassin trained in using poisons and striking when it's not expected (which you learn if talking to him at all).  It's just bad judgement not talking to your assassin if you take him, and poor leadership as you are too, I dunno, careless?, to gauge if he is a danger to you and the rest of your companions.   Even Leliana will tell you that he needs more scrutiny than the rest of the companions.

He's not a danger. The game proves that much. He's an annoying fight at best. Also the Warden may be nigh unreachable in that manner so he may have needed to take a more direct approach. 

But there are people out there who do think that sparing his life, even though he's subjecting himself to a far greater risk by allowing you to take him, should be enough.  

If he thinks so he should've fought to the end and not gave me his fake word. I get that assassins have no honor at all but either he's suicidial or not. He can't be both. 

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...
Once again. I'm not saying my Warden should've been shocked (she wasn't) but saying she deserved it is complete nonsense. You say this as if she was verbally berating him or giving him cause to want her dead. She wasn't. 

The person down the street doesn't have to be innocent. They still don't deserve to be assaulted for no reason. My Warden didn't deserve to be betrayed in such a manner. 

He has very good reasons to want you dead, namely that you not being dead poses a grave danger to his own life.  Which if you listened to him enough to recruit him at all, you would know.

Forgive me if I'm not joining in your pity party about your Warden who's soaked in other people's blood.  It's a dangerous world, you either play it smart or...

Losing yourself an ally who is as valuable as Zevran, when it's so ridiculously easy to earn his trust and loyalty, is one of those things behind the ....  Not saying that there aren't RP reasons to either kill him or be hostile to him, but there are consequences.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Also...an assassin being trusted on his/her word? If I couldn't trust his inital promise why should I trust anything that comes after? 

Because that promise came at sword point. Eventually, you'll have to find another incentive.

You *shouldn't* do anything. However, it's pretty clear that if you do make the effort, you can see in-game him being loyal to you and appreciating the idea of being friends with you. Should he betray you after all this, you would have been "innocent" as you made the effort and he still stabbed you in the back. If you made no effort at all, well it's at least partially your fault.

What I don't get is the whole "suicidal claim" if he's suicidal he shouldn't have bargained for his life. I'm not saying his betrayal is shocking but no I don't think my Warden deserved that scene in Denerim. I'd have more respect for his character if he betrayed the Warden openly instead of jumping back to the supposedly horrible crows. 

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Also: 

Ryzaki wrote...
Once again. I'm not saying my Warden should've been shocked (she wasn't) but saying she deserved it is complete nonsense. You say this as if she was verbally berating him or giving him cause to want her dead. She wasn't. 

The person down the street doesn't have to be innocent. They still don't deserve to be assaulted for no reason. My Warden didn't deserve to be betrayed in such a manner. 

He has very good reasons to want you dead, namely that you not being dead poses a grave danger to his own life.  Which if you listened to him enough to recruit him at all, you would know.

Forgive me if I'm not joining in your pity party about your Warden who's soaked in other people's blood.  It's a dangerous world, you either play it smart or...

Losing yourself an ally who is as valuable as Zevran, when it's so ridiculously easy to earn his trust and loyalty, is one of those things behind the ....  Not saying that there aren't RP reasons to either kill him or be hostile to him, but there are consequences.

What consequences? You can slit his throat and nothing of note happens. He's perfectly expendable in the game. 

And playing it smart would be killing him from the get go. Which is what I now do. 

and honestly that whole sparing him game was metagaming. Which I don't do anymore. My good guys either leave him there tied up for someone to find him and everyone else just kills him. 

Also: What about that whole "failure" crows bit. Even if he kills the Warden with Taliesan he failed the first time. They're not going to let that slid (according to Zev anyways). And again with the fear of his life. Is he suicidal or not? If he's not he was trying to kill the Warden twice. If he is he's a damned coward. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 04:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
What I don't get is the whole "suicidal claim" if he's suicidal he shouldn't have bargained for his life. I'm not saying his betrayal is shocking but no I don't think my Warden deserved that scene in Denerim. I'd have more respect for his character if he betrayed the Warden openly instead of jumping back to the supposedly horrible crows. 

I agree that his suicidal desire was a bit meeh. I don't think he was 100% committed to losing his life. So he backed out, which is of course a natural reaction and I think Zevran is too strong to be that suicidal. If he was, he could have killed himself easily and be done with it. 

And you'd have more respect for him if he was an idiot? Of course if he wants to betray you, he's going to wait for the perfect moment to do it (maybe he can't do it at night because of rotating night guards), and not take you on alone.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
What I don't get is the whole "suicidal claim" if he's suicidal he shouldn't have bargained for his life. I'm not saying his betrayal is shocking but no I don't think my Warden deserved that scene in Denerim. I'd have more respect for his character if he betrayed the Warden openly instead of jumping back to the supposedly horrible crows. 

I agree that his suicidal desire was a bit meeh. I don't think he was 100% committed to losing his life. So he backed out, which is of course a natural reaction and I think Zevran is too strong to be that suicidal. If he was, he could have killed himself easily and be done with it. 

And you'd have more respect for him if he was an idiot? Of course if he wants to betray you, he's going to wait for the perfect moment to do it (maybe he can't do it at night because of rotating night guards), and not take you on alone.

Exactly the whole "he's suicidal" claim is just...what? I don't buy it. 

I'd have more respect for him if he was upfront. (So Sten's an idiot for challenging you at Haven? News to me.) 

Though yes. I can admit the snake waited for the perfect time (Good thing he wasn't in my active party). Ah. Owning him is one of the better parts of the game. 

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Also...an assassin being trusted on his/her word? If I couldn't trust his inital promise why should I trust anything that comes after? 

Because that promise came at sword point. Eventually, you'll have to find another incentive.

You *shouldn't* do anything. However, it's pretty clear that if you do make the effort, you can see in-game him being loyal to you and appreciating the idea of being friends with you. Should he betray you after all this, you would have been "innocent" as you made the effort and he still stabbed you in the back. If you made no effort at all, well it's at least partially your fault.

What I don't get is the whole "suicidal claim" if he's suicidal he shouldn't have bargained for his life. I'm not saying his betrayal is shocking but no I don't think my Warden deserved that scene in Denerim. I'd have more respect for his character if he betrayed the Warden openly instead of jumping back to the supposedly horrible crows. 

The suicide claim is not made up.  Your questions would have to go to the writers, as it is stated, VERY clearly, to either a lover at 71+ adore or a friend at 76+ friendly that it was a suicide attempt. 

He knew you would kill him in Denerim.  He knows you will win.  He wasn't siding with the crows -- he was completing what he started. It was not about YOU, so much, as about him.  I mean, I know that's a difficult concept in a video game where your warden IS the center of the universe, but that's a fantastic thing about DA:O is you can learn about the backstory and motivations of your companions, and it often is very different than what you think.

You may disagree with how the writers wrote him, you may think they did a sloppy job at getting the message across.  But this is stuff you learn at higher approvals when you talk to him.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

The suicide claim is not made up.  Your questions would have to go to the writers, as it is stated, VERY clearly, to either a lover at 71+ adore or a friend at 76+ friendly that it was a suicide attempt. 

He knew you would kill him in Denerim.  He knows you will win.  He wasn't siding with the crows -- he was completing what he started. It was not about YOU, so much, as about him.  I mean, I know that's a difficult concept in a video game where your warden IS the center of the universe, but that's a fantastic thing about DA:O is you can learn about the backstory and motivations of your companions, and it often is very different than what you think.

You may disagree with how the writers wrote him, you may think they did a sloppy job at getting the message across.  But this is stuff you learn at higher approvals when you talk to him.

 

Right. Because it's impossible for me to dislike Zev without thinking my Warden is the center of the universe. <_< 

If he's suicidal he's a damn coward for being unable to kill himself without dragging others into his nonsense. If he's suicidal he's a damn coward (and apparently not want death too much) for asking the Warden to spare him at the last moment. 

Either way he's a damn coward. 

Also: The whole asking to be spared and making a vow just makes him more of a snake. He's willing to cling to life just long enough for when he sees the Warden is outnumbered and then attempt to "kill" himself again instead of attacking the Warden one on one at camp where the others can jump him? 

Yeah right. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:03 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The suicide claim is not made up.  Your questions would have to go to the writers, as it is stated, VERY clearly, to either a lover at 71+ adore or a friend at 76+ friendly that it was a suicide attempt. 

He knew you would kill him in Denerim.  He knows you will win.  He wasn't siding with the crows -- he was completing what he started. It was not about YOU, so much, as about him.  I mean, I know that's a difficult concept in a video game where your warden IS the center of the universe, but that's a fantastic thing about DA:O is you can learn about the backstory and motivations of your companions, and it often is very different than what you think.

You may disagree with how the writers wrote him, you may think they did a sloppy job at getting the message across.  But this is stuff you learn at higher approvals when you talk to him.

 

Right. Because it's impossible for me to dislike Zev without thinking my Warden is the center of the universe. <_< 

If he's suicidal he's a damn coward for being unable to kill himself without dragging others into his nonsense. If he's suicidal he's a damn coward (and apparently not want death too much) for asking the Warden to spare him at the last moment. 

Either way he's a damn coward. 

In your opinion.  I never said it was impossible to dislike Zevran.  Lots of people hate him.  And why he asks to be spared?  He sees a chance to escape from the crows.  Which he throws away to stay with you and defeat the blight if you get that far.

Edit: My point was, all your companions have motivations of their own -- it's NOT just about your warden.  Ask any Aligirl who got dumped her first playthrough about that!  They have their own stories, their own reasons for being with you, and you know, will act and react to decisions you make and dialog choices you take (or not take) which may ****** you off.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'd have more respect for him if he was upfront. (So Sten's an idiot for challenging you at Haven? News to me.) 

Sten was not trying to kill you. He was challenging you for a stupid decision and I happen to agree with him.  It's different. You don't kill him and I heard that the original idea was that if he beats you, he leaves, but doesn't kill you.

So I personally would have found it very stupid if Zevran wanted to take me on, on his own, when he failed with a group.

But just thought I'd sahre something. Before, I didnt' really like him. Of ocurse my dislike was not in the same level as yours. But I wasn't a fan, when I left him at camp. But I personally felt that he was great when I took him with me. Out of all companions, he shows a wisdom beyond his years and I think it's a shame not to get to know him well. Not trying to tell you how to play your game of course. But it's worth the effort, imo.

The fact that we are talkign about Zevran in a Wynne thread should tell you how dull she is

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

In your opinion.  I never said it was impossible to dislike Zevran.  Lots of people hate him.  And why he asks to be spared?  He sees a chance to escape from the crows.  Which he throws away to stay with you and defeat the blight if you get that far.

Didn't you just finish saying it was a suicidal by cop attempt? There's no reason to make said vow he got what he wanted. The only reason to make it is if he suddenly realizes he doesn't want to die the only reason for him to attack the warden again is if he's a bloody traitor. He makes the vow because he wants to live and doesn't mind stabbing your Warden in the back in the future if possible. 

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I'd have more respect for him if he was upfront. (So Sten's an idiot for challenging you at Haven? News to me.) 

Sten was not trying to kill you. He was challenging you for a stupid decision and I happen to agree with him.  It's different. You don't kill him and I heard that the original idea was that if he beats you, he leaves, but doesn't kill you.

So I personally would have found it very stupid if Zevran wanted to take me on, on his own, when he failed with a group.

But just thought I'd sahre something. Before, I didnt' really like him. Of ocurse my dislike was not in the same level as yours. But I wasn't a fan, when I left him at camp. But I personally felt that he was great when I took him with me. Out of all companions, he shows a wisdom beyond his years and I think it's a shame not to get to know him well. Not trying to tell you how to play your game of course. But it's worth the effort, imo.

The fact that we are talkign about Zevran in a Wynne thread should tell you how dull she is

KoP, regarding Sten, the dialog is actually all there in the toolset.  No one agrees to follow him if he wins, but you were not supposed to die, at least not originally.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I'd have more respect for him if he was upfront. (So Sten's an idiot for challenging you at Haven? News to me.) 

Sten was not trying to kill you. He was challenging you for a stupid decision and I happen to agree with him.  It's different. You don't kill him and I heard that the original idea was that if he beats you, he leaves, but doesn't kill you.

Well he killed me in my game.  But that sounds pretty awesome. 

I also agree with him at the Haven thing. *sighs* Why oh why was I railroaded into that? 

Apparently Zev's not trying to kill you either. Apparently. 

So I personally would have found it very stupid if Zevran wanted to take me on, on his own, when he failed with a group. 

But just thought I'd sahre something. Before, I didnt' really like him. Of ocurse my dislike was not in the same level as yours. But I wasn't a fan, when I left him at camp. But I personally felt that he was great when I took him with me. Out of all companions, he shows a wisdom beyond his years and I think it's a shame not to get to know him well. Not trying to tell you how to play your game of course. But it's worth the effort, imo.

The fact that we are talkign about Zevran in a Wynne thread should tell you how dull she is

LOL but he's supposedly "suicidal!" it's what a suicidal person would do! 

He is really wise and it's fun dragging him around with you. I gain a lot of insight that way. (I've played games like these mostly when I chose to romance him). 

Poor poor Wynne. XD 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
The suicide claim is not made up.  Your questions would have to go to the writers, as it is stated, VERY clearly, to either a lover at 71+ adore or a friend at 76+ friendly that it was a suicide attempt. 

If he was that desperate, he would have hari kiri-ed.

I know Zevran said that he wanted to die, but I don't think he wanted to die that badly. He might have preferred dying, but he backed out, which of course I dont' blame him. but I don't see him being that committed to suicide.

I don't necessarily see this as the writers talking and not him saying what he feels, which could be somewhat innacurate. We all can't describe our feelings in a few words. I never saw Zevran as being that suicidal. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
KoP, regarding Sten, the dialog is actually all there in the toolset.  No one agrees to follow him if he wins, but you were not supposed to die, at least not originally.

Oh didn't know that. Thanks

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL but he's supposedly "suicidal!" it's what a suicidal person would do! 

He is really wise and it's fun dragging him around with you. I gain a lot of insight that way. (I've played games like these mostly when I chose to romance him). 

Poor poor Wynne. XD 

Take it up with the writers.  This IS his backstory, that he was trying to kill himself via Gray Warden.  Here, in fact, is the line:

Zevran: You once asked why I wanted to leave the Crows. In truth, what I wanted was to die. What better way than to throw myself at one of the fabled Grey Wardens? (sad)

You can laugh and scoff at the idea of it if you want, but that is what is written. 

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL but he's supposedly "suicidal!" it's what a suicidal person would do! 

He is really wise and it's fun dragging him around with you. I gain a lot of insight that way. (I've played games like these mostly when I chose to romance him). 

Poor poor Wynne. XD 

Take it up with the writers.  This IS his backstory, that he was trying to kill himself via Gray Warden.  Here, in fact, is the line:

Zevran: You once asked why I wanted to leave the Crows. In truth, what I wanted was to die. What better way than to throw myself at one of the fabled Grey Wardens? (sad)

You can laugh and scoff at the idea of it if you want, but that is what is written. 

Actions speak louder than words is all I will say. 

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

What consequences? You can slit his throat and nothing of note happens. He's perfectly expendable in the game. 
 

As are all the companions.  Not like the game is going to "fail" you for not recruiting one of them.  You just lose a valuable resource, and one that if you had played it otherwise would continue to stay on with your Warden.  If you don't see any value in that, whatever.  You're free to play your game as you like.  Personally I recruit everyone except the ones I can't stand.  Oops, I mean one... Wynne.    And I only take Leliana because Alistair asks nicely.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
The suicide claim is not made up.  Your questions would have to go to the writers, as it is stated, VERY clearly, to either a lover at 71+ adore or a friend at 76+ friendly that it was a suicide attempt. 

If he was that desperate, he would have hari kiri-ed.

I know Zevran said that he wanted to die, but I don't think he wanted to die that badly. He might have preferred dying, but he backed out, which of course I dont' blame him. but I don't see him being that committed to suicide.

I don't necessarily see this as the writers talking and not him saying what he feels, which could be somewhat innacurate. We all can't describe our feelings in a few words. I never saw Zevran as being that suicidal. 

I don't think he's depressed/hopeless suicidal.  I think he sees nothing at all for his future and would rather die than continue to live this way.  I also think once he sees a chance for a new life, he grabs it.  He sees he has options, not that things will be more of the same.

The first attempt on the gray warden was an attempt to kill himself.  I think the second attempt is the same as he sees no future at all and knows he's going to lose.

That's not the same as despairing, depressed, whatever.  It's more, his life is intolerable, and he sees no other way.  Show him another way, and there is no way he's going back to the crows.  He wants a new life.

Ryzaki wrote...


Actions speak louder than words is all I will say. 

Again, you will have to take it up with the writers.

I get that you don't like Zevran.  I even understand your point of view.  But you are dismissing what is actually written, things that are there about the character, because they don't fit in with the reasons you dislike him.  Which is kind of annoying.

I could go on about WHY I like him, and I could even make things up about him as I see done in fanfics to make him a better person than he is.  THAT would make my arguments completely invalid, however.

He is one of your smarter companions, and is definitely the most outspoken one.  He has the most to gain by initially going with you and the most to lose by staying with you.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 You just lose a valuable resource, and one that if you had played it otherwise would continue to stay on with your Warden..

I think your stay in the Loghain thread affected you more than you know, Addai 

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

What consequences? You can slit his throat and nothing of note happens. He's perfectly expendable in the game. 
 

As are all the companions.  Not like the game is going to "fail" you for not recruiting one of them.  You just lose a valuable resource, and one that if you had played it otherwise would continue to stay on with your Warden.  If you don't see any value in that, whatever.  You're free to play your game as you like.  Personally I recruit everyone except the ones I can't stand.  Oops, I mean one... Wynne.    And I only take Leliana because Alistair asks nicely.

And you lose out on one of the only 2 mages (that's not your PC) That's a lot more of a consequence than just one rogue. 

I recruit everyone except Morrigan and Zev. I might start killing Wynne too come to think of it. I don't recruit Sten either and wouldn't recruit Oghren if he was optional. Alas. He's not.  

Plus the game isn't so overly hard that you absolutely need a rogue/warrior/mage party. 

Also: Yay for bashing chests mod! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
 He wants a new life.

Yes, that's what I think his motivation is. Not really to die, but find something new.

In fact he does talk about possibly leaving your company in the future to try to find that new life on his own, unless of course we convince him otherwise.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 He wants a new life.

Yes, that's what I think his motivation is. Not really to die, but find something new.

In fact he does talk about possibly leaving your company in the future to try to find that new life on his own, unless of course we convince him otherwise.

Yep, it's his one chance to escape the Crows, once and for all, and if he's not romanced, that is what he wants more than anything.  Yet if you ask him to, he will give up that last chance, and stay with you.  Of course, I don't see him asking to leave.  I see him asking to stay, but that's because he's always romanced.

Edit: I actually see Zevran's story as one of redemption, a redemption that apparently only the warden can bring about.  I think the warden has the strongest influence over Zevran.  The real difference is, you don't have to harden him or anything.  You just need to get through to him.  You can't do that if you ignore him, though.

Second edit: Wynne...  /shakes head.  She tries to be Zevran's advisor, mentor, whatever as well, but she's so obnoxious about it, and so judgmental of him.  I wonder if that's the way she was with everyone she tried to mentor!  He was so good at turning the tables on her!

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .