576 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Again, you will have to take it up with the writers.

You mean the ones who created the character so that players could judge them on their own merits? Those writers? 

I get that you don't like Zevran.  I even understand your point of view.  But you are dismissing what is actually written, things that are there about the character, because they don't fit in with the reasons you dislike him.  Which is kind of annoying.

It's kind of annoying seeing legimitate reasons to dislike him reduced to "Oh you don't understand him!" I'm dismissing what's written that goes against what he's actually done. I could say my Warden was the nicest person ever but if she keeps the anvil, slaughtered the elves, sacrificed them for power. It doesn't matter what I say her actions prove otherwise. 

I could go on about WHY I like him, and I could even make things up about him as I see done in fanfics to make him a better person than he is.  THAT would make my arguments completely invalid, however.

He is one of your smarter companions, and is definitely the most outspoken one.  He has the most to gain by initially going with you and the most to lose by staying with you.

That's fine. However I'm not making anything up I'm going by what the game gives me. For someone to be suicidal they have to want to die. Or more exactly to want to kill themselves. Zevran doesn't show this. If he really wanted to kill himself as an assassin he'd know plenty of poisions and such that would kill him without pain and rather quickly. Instead he pleads for his life and then turns on the Warden when he has an advantage. That's not suicidal that's trying to kill someone at an oppoturne moment. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:32 .

[ejoslin]

You certainly don't SEEM like you understand him as half your post is again, dismissing a significant part of his backstory.

I personally do not care whether you kill him in your games or not Or whether you come up with your own motivations for his actions. But stating your opinion as fact even though it goes against the written backstory makes it a bit hard to take your arguments seriously.

A LOT of people hate Zevran. That does not bother me. He's a fictional character with a very complex story. If you choose to dismiss it, that's your choice. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Edit: You have many reasons to just kill him, or even let him free.  All your companions, really, it seems like a stupid idea to take them with you.  Leliana seems crazy and is less than honest with you.  Wynne is annoying and less than honest with you -- and in fact is an abomination (I wish we could turn her in).  Sten just murdered an entire family who saved his life.  You know Morrigan is hiding things from you.  Oghren is a drunk who murdered someone.  The first thing Shale did when she got free will was kill her master.

It's pretty stupid to trust anyone but Alistair, when you think about it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: Wynne...  /shakes head.  She tries to be Zevran's advisor, mentor, whatever as well, but she's so obnoxious about it, and so judgmental of him.  I wonder if that's the way she was with everyone she tried to mentor!  He was so good at turning the tables on her!

Yea, her attempts to get close to him are laughable. And considering how she drove her first apprentice to near suicide, then I'd hate to think how she was before she was...enlightened, ugh.

The only one who gets along fine with her is Alistair because...well he's that desperate for affection?
And Leliana..for some reason.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

And you lose out on one of the only 2 mages (that's not your PC) That's a lot more of a consequence than just one rogue. 

Eh, whatever.  Even if I had recruited her I would never take her with me, so sometimes I just cut a corner.

I recruit everyone except Morrigan and Zev. I might start killing Wynne too come to think of it. I don't recruit Sten either and wouldn't recruit Oghren if he was optional. Alas. He's not.  

Plus the game isn't so overly hard that you absolutely need a rogue/warrior/mage party. 

Also: Yay for bashing chests mod! 

How do you manage not to recruit Morrigan?

I don't take Zevran along for lockpick.  I usually play mages or rogues myself and I do have lock bash mod.  I take him along because I like him and because he's a kick-ass fighter.  I like all the companions except Wynne and Leliana, and of course none are obligatory.  But they're assets and if nothing else the game feels empty with few companions.  To each her own.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

You certainly don't SEEM like you understand him as half your post is again, dismissing a significant part of his backstory.   

I personally do not care whether you kill him in your games or not Or whether you come up with your own motivations for his actions. But stating your opinion as fact even though it goes against the written backstory makes it a bit hard to take your arguments seriously.

His backstory means jacksquat if it's not supported by his actions in game. Like I said about my Warden. 

A LOT of people hate Zevran. That does not bother me. He's a fictional character with a very complex story. If you choose to dismiss it, that's your choice. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Never said he didn't. I just said his being "suicidal" just didn't mesh with his actions regarding the Warden. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
It's pretty stupid to trust anyone but Alistair, when you think about it.

Even that is stupid. I couldn't trust him being rational all the time, based on his tantrum after redcliff. 

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...
Eh, whatever.  Even if I had recruited her I would never take her with me, so sometimes I just cut a corner.

Yeah I like having a designated healer. But personal preference and all that. 

How do you manage not to recruit Morrigan?

Oh. I just tell her to GTFO once I reach Lothering while telling her the whole time I don't want her. The fact that she leaves without much drama is a plus for her in my book. I may not like the woman but I respect her. 

I don't take Zevran along for lockpick.  I usually play mages or rogues myself and I do have lock bash mod.  I take him along because I like him and because he's a kick-ass fighter.  I like all the companions except Wynne and Leliana, and of course none are obligatory.  But they're assets and if nothing else the game feels empty with few companions.  To each her own.

To each her own indeed. 

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
It's pretty stupid to trust anyone but Alistair, when you think about it.

Even that is stupid. I couldn't trust him being rational all the time, based on his tantrum after redcliff. 

This. Alistair...is kind of...ugh. At moments. 

I love how he goes from "I see how its necessary..." about killing Conner to "HOW COULD YOU!" at camp. WTF dude? 

[Sarah1281]

My warden "deserved to be betrayed"? Now I could see you saying she shouldn't be surprised but "deserved"? She had done no wrong to Zevran. And he betrays her like a snake and coward attempting to stab her behind the back. INstead of being a man and doing it straight in her face.

But...he IS 'being a man and doing it stright in her face.' He doesn't literally stab you in the back, he doesn't lure you away from the others and try to kill you, he doesn't go after you while you sleep, he doesn't try to poison you...Taliesin shows up and asks him to fight with him and try to kill you. Zevran openly says yes. He doesn't even pretend to be still on your side and try to cut you down in the fight!

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

My warden "deserved to be betrayed"? Now I could see you saying she shouldn't be surprised but "deserved"? She had done no wrong to Zevran. And he betrays her like a snake and coward attempting to stab her behind the back. INstead of being a man and doing it straight in her face.

But...he IS 'being a man and doing it stright in her face.' He doesn't literally stab you in the back, he doesn't lure you away from the others and try to kill you, he doesn't go after you while you sleep, he doesn't try to poison you...Taliesin shows up and asks him to fight with him and try to kill you. Zevran openly says yes. He doesn't even pretend to be still on your side and try to cut you down in the fight!

But the fact that he waits til my Warden is surronded by rogue archers and just being greeted by Taliesan is a mark against him (also I'm sure if he didn't say that Taliesan would've attacked him too so he's covering his ass). 

Also the whole not going after you while you sleep: Again there are other characters who don't trust him (and a few who would've been glad to kill him) he'd have been at a serious disadvantage. (There's also the chance that the Warden wouldn't have trusted him far enough to throw him). And Shale watches everything while the Wardens sleep. She has nothing better to do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:46 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You certainly don't SEEM like you understand him as half your post is again, dismissing a significant part of his backstory.   

I personally do not care whether you kill him in your games or not Or whether you come up with your own motivations for his actions. But stating your opinion as fact even though it goes against the written backstory makes it a bit hard to take your arguments seriously.

His backstory means jacksquat if it's not supported by his actions in game. Like I said about my Warden. 

A LOT of people hate Zevran. That does not bother me. He's a fictional character with a very complex story. If you choose to dismiss it, that's your choice. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Never said he didn't. I just said his being "suicidal" just didn't mesh with his actions regarding the Warden. 

You are picturing someone sad/depressed/despairing.  You're also assuming that this is all consciously thought out (which I have my doubts).  I don't think he's thinking, "Ok, time to die.  I know, Gray Warden!"  It's more a completely reckless, not caring what happens, and seeing the chance at a suicidal mission, jumps at it.  I could go further into this, but then we're talking about my interpretation.  Sticking with what the game says, he took the mission because he wanted to die.   

He's a survivor more than anything -- he doesn't talk much about the torture he endured (it's touched on a couple of times is all) as part of his training, but what you do know, only the very strongest survive.

/shrug, I find his story interesting, sad, and very forgivable.  That he DOES change despite how he was raised, trained, etc., says a lot about his inner strength as well. 

But yeh, I see why people would hate him.  I see why actually accepting that his motives were not what they seem is a bit difficult unless you get to know him.  But really, if he wanted to kill the warden, the warden most likely would have died somewhere along the road.  Of course, you can't really know that.  Which is why it's the smart move, if you recruit him, to talk to him.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Eh, whatever.  Even if I had recruited her I would never take her with me, so sometimes I just cut a corner.

Yeah I like having a designated healer. But personal preference and all that. 

Morrigan is ten times more valuable in my book and a lot more likeable.  She goes pretty much everywhere with me, even as a mage.  As far as I'm concerned, crowd control and destructo-mage > buff mage.

Good times are agreeing with Morrigan in the Circle about how pathetic they all are and then watching the fireworks.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan is ten times more valuable in my book and a lot more likeable.  She goes pretty much everywhere with me, even as a mage.  As far as I'm concerned, crowd control and destructo-mage > buff mage.

Good times are agreeing with Morrigan in the Circle about how pathetic they all are and then watching the fireworks.

...I'm not going into that trap. Must....resist.... Must....resist.....

...Morrigan...let's just say Wynne isn't the only hypocritical mage on the squad. Or ignorant. 

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

My warden "deserved to be betrayed"? Now I could see you saying she shouldn't be surprised but "deserved"? She had done no wrong to Zevran. And he betrays her like a snake and coward attempting to stab her behind the back. INstead of being a man and doing it straight in her face.

But...he IS 'being a man and doing it stright in her face.' He doesn't literally stab you in the back, he doesn't lure you away from the others and try to kill you, he doesn't go after you while you sleep, he doesn't try to poison you...Taliesin shows up and asks him to fight with him and try to kill you. Zevran openly says yes. He doesn't even pretend to be still on your side and try to cut you down in the fight!

But the fact that he waits til my Warden is surronded by rogue archers and just being greeted by Taliesan is a mark against him (also I'm sure if he didn't say that Taliesan would've attacked him too so he's covering his ass). 

Also the whole not going after you while you sleep: Again there are other characters who don't trust him (and a few who would've been glad to kill him) he'd have been at a serious disadvantage. (There's also the chance that the Warden wouldn't have trusted him far enough to throw him). And Shale watches everything while the Wardens sleep. She has nothing better to do. 

He KNOWS Taliesen is going to lose.  KNOWS it.  You may not have this information, but here's THAT line:

Zevran: You are going to lose, Taliesen. You are going to lose badly. You should have stayed in Antiva.

He could have poisoned you in camp.  Here's what he says about THAT:

Zevran: Do you know there are poisons that I can ingest which would be harmless to me and yet be already killing you as we speak?

So he has opportunity to kill you.  Yet he doesn't.  Yet he jumps into a fight he knows he's going to lose?

That's why I say his motivations are not what they appear to be on the surface.

[Sarah1281]

But the fact that he waits til my Warden is surronded by rogue archers and just being greeted by Taliesan is a mark against him (also I'm sure if he didn't say that Taliesan would've attacked him too so he's covering his ass).

Actually, if Zevran tells you both to have fun killing each other then everyone just lets him wander off. And I think you're putting too much faith in your Wardens ability to be perfectly watched 24/7 and not enough in Zevran's ability to get you alone and at least TRY to kill you or to do a stealthier attempt at killing you. Just because his ambush failed and he's not as good a fighter as you doesn't mean he's not a good enough ASSASSIN.

[Kornichon]

Ryzaki wrote...
For someone to be suicidal they have to want to die. Or more exactly to want to kill themselves. Zevran doesn't show this. If he really wanted to kill himself as an assassin he'd know plenty of poisions and such that would kill him without pain and rather quickly. Instead he pleads for his life and then turns on the Warden when he has an advantage. That's not suicidal that's trying to kill someone at an oppoturne moment. 

ok. so did you ever tried to kill yourself?

some people can be suicidal, but that don't means they are able to do it theirself. You can see it as cowardise, but some people have a survival instinct stronger than others and can't do that. It's a "mental bolt".
(don't know if I explain it correctly)
and for Zevran who was trained to be an assassin, who have seen and survived horrible things, that's something that fit him completely.
and I think fighting the warden to find death is a way to end on a high note for an assassin carrier too.

[Reaverwind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: Wynne...  /shakes head.  She tries to be Zevran's advisor, mentor, whatever as well, but she's so obnoxious about it, and so judgmental of him.  I wonder if that's the way she was with everyone she tried to mentor!  He was so good at turning the tables on her!

Yea, her attempts to get close to him are laughable. And considering how she drove her first apprentice to near suicide, then I'd hate to think how she was before she was...enlightened, ugh.

Wynne is enlightened?  When did that happen?

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...


You are picturing someone sad/depressed/despairing.  You're also assuming that this is all consciously thought out (which I have my doubts).  I don't think he's thinking, "Ok, time to die.  I know, Gray Warden!"  It's more a completely reckless, not caring what happens, and seeing the chance at a suicidal mission, jumps at it.  I could go further into this, but then we're talking about my interpretation.  Sticking with what the game says, he took the mission because he wanted to die.   

He's a survivor more than anything -- he doesn't talk much about the torture he endured (it's touched on a couple of times is all) as part of his training, but what you do know, only the very strongest survive.

Which is why the suicidal bit is just...not believeable to me. If he really wanted to die. He'd be dead. He just saw a remarkably difficult target. The second he sees a chance to live he takes it. If he really wanted to end it he would've either attacked the moment the PC released him or would've tried to attack when he was outnumbered. He doesn't. 

/shrug, I find his story interesting, sad, and very forgivable.  That he DOES change despite how he was raised, trained, etc., says a lot about his inner strength as well.

It does. 

But yeh, I see why people would hate him.  I see why actually accepting that his motives were not what they seem is a bit difficult unless you get to know him.  But really, if he wanted to kill the warden, the warden most likely would have died somewhere along the road.  Of course, you can't really know that.  Which is why it's the smart move, if you recruit him, to talk to him.

...The Warden isn't going to be killed off by some rogue assassin. Heck. You're party can consist of two mages at that point. Wardens are only taken on by a few people for a reason. A. They're wardens and B. They're master fighters (for the most part) where Crows are just those willing to do the job at any cost. They're not necessarily master fighters. I give the smart move is to talk to him, the smarter still is to simply kill him. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reaverwind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: Wynne...  /shakes head.  She tries to be Zevran's advisor, mentor, whatever as well, but she's so obnoxious about it, and so judgmental of him.  I wonder if that's the way she was with everyone she tried to mentor!  He was so good at turning the tables on her!

Yea, her attempts to get close to him are laughable. And considering how she drove her first apprentice to near suicide, then I'd hate to think how she was before she was...enlightened, ugh.

Wynne is enlightened?  When did that happen?

She isn't. But that's what she makes it sound like. That she learned her lesson from the kid whom she almost got killed.

[Ryzaki]

Kornichon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
For someone to be suicidal they have to want to die. Or more exactly to want to kill themselves. Zevran doesn't show this. If he really wanted to kill himself as an assassin he'd know plenty of poisions and such that would kill him without pain and rather quickly. Instead he pleads for his life and then turns on the Warden when he has an advantage. That's not suicidal that's trying to kill someone at an oppoturne moment. 

ok. so did you ever tried to kill yourself?

some people can be suicidal, but that don't means they are able to do it theirself. You can see it as cowardise, but some people have a survival instinct stronger than others and can't do that. It's a "mental bolt".
(don't know if I explain it correctly)
and for Zevran who was trained to be an assassin, who have seen and survived horrible things, that's something that fit him completely.
and I think fighting the warden to find death is a way to end on a high note for an assassin carrier too.

Uh..There's a difference between the wangsty teenager who wants to die because he/she didn't get his/her way and someone who really doesn't think life's worth living anymore. 

If you can't do it yourself then you really don't want to die. A part of you no matter how small is clinging to life. You're not suicidal you're depressed. 

As an assassin he would know a way to kill himself that was painless and quick and the fear of death doesn't stop him from attacking your warden I doubt it would stop him from eating a plant. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:56 .

[dbfandillyjam]

Let's not forget that The Chantry sees suicide as a severe sin. Zev and Ali actually have a conversation about faith and Zev mentions that after he completes a mission he asks The Maker for forgiveness and is devout in his own way. Taking poison is out right suicide and a disrespect to the Maker, death in battle is at least a respectable way to die.

[Ryzaki]

dbfandillyjam wrote...

Let's not forget that The Chantry sees suicide as a severe sin. Zev and Ali actually have a conversation about faith and Zev mentions that after he completes a mission he asks The Maker for forgiveness and is devout in his own way. Taking poison is out right suicide and a disrespect to the Maker, death in battle is at least a respectable way to die.

Not if you do it with the intention of killing yourself. I'm sure suicide is more intent than means. If I jump infront of a moving train I still committed suicide. I just used the train as my weapon. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.