576 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

He KNOWS Taliesen is going to lose.  KNOWS it.  You may not have this information, but here's THAT line:

Zevran: You are going to lose, Taliesen. You are going to lose badly. You should have stayed in Antiva.

He could have poisoned you in camp.  Here's what he says about THAT:

Zevran: Do you know there are poisons that I can ingest which would be harmless to me and yet be already killing you as we speak?

So he has opportunity to kill you.  Yet he doesn't.  Yet he jumps into a fight he knows he's going to lose?

That's why I say his motivations are not what they appear to be on the surface.

He only says that if you're friendly. He doesn't at neutral. And again it doesn't mesh with his actions. If he wants to die so badly why wait til Denerim? why not attack the PC at camp? Why not attack the PC when they're spending the night in Denerim? (Before finding Anora?). Why ask for his life? It doesn't mesh. He simply says if he betrays the Warden "We'll see." That leads to the belief that he sees some chance in victory. 

Which to me made no sense. I always thought it would've been better had he simply left at neutral without a word. A betrayal but not him literally stabbing you in the back. Instead he attacks you as though you earned his ire when you spared his life in an act of mercy. I couldn't find any sympathy for him after that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.

This. Urgh. I can't believe she'd say that! Even knowing he was happier where he was! What is wrong with that woman? 

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Edit: I also don't think your views on suicide are quite accurate.  People have different motivations.  There are people who commit suicide wanting to be saved -- but I don't think that is his motivation.  I honestly don't think he thought he could be saved.  It's possible it was just there underneath the surface, but he didn't analyze it and it wasn't until he really did start to change that he realized just why he took that contract.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:05 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Death wish would've been marginally better. But it still doesn't mesh with the why wait til he has the upper hand to betray the Warden? That's not a death wish as it is springing a late trap. A Death wish would've been him continuing to try to fight the warden after released, or even better trying to poison the Warden at camp.
That would've been a death wish. 

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Death wish would've been marginally better. But it still doesn't mesh with the why wait til he has the upper hand to betray the Warden? That's not a death wish as it is springing a late trap. A Death wish would've been him continuing to try to fight the warden after released, or even better trying to poison the Warden at camp.
That would've been a death wish. 

He doesn't think he has the upper hand.  He knows he's going to lose.  Again, this is in the game, but you probably have never seen it.  But he tells Taliesen straight out, IF he leaves the fight, that Taliesen is going to lose, lose badly, and he should have stayed in Antiva.

Where he has the upper hand is when in camp, when he's been there awhile, and can poison the camp with something he's immune to.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Edit: I also don't think your views on suicide are quite accurate.  People have different motivations.  There are people who commit suicide wanting to be saved -- but I don't think that is his motivation.  I honestly don't think he thought he could be saved.  It's possible it was just there underneath the surface, but he didn't analyze it and it wasn't until he really did start to change that he realized just why he took that contract.

You can kill yourself without really wanting to die. That said those are my views on suicide. I always felt that anyone who wants to be "saved" doesn't want to commit suicide, they're looking for someone to save them. (And then there's that just want attention). If you feel your life is not worth living, you kill yourself in quiet dignity. I never been fond of the "I'm gonna jump of the bridge!!!" people. I find them irritating instead of pitiable. Then again I'm a bit of a b****. 

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan is ten times more valuable in my book and a lot more likeable.  She goes pretty much everywhere with me, even as a mage.  As far as I'm concerned, crowd control and destructo-mage > buff mage.

Good times are agreeing with Morrigan in the Circle about how pathetic they all are and then watching the fireworks.

...I'm not going into that trap. Must....resist.... Must....resist.....

...Morrigan...let's just say Wynne isn't the only hypocritical mage on the squad. Or ignorant. 

Oh sure, Morrigan has her weaknesses as they all do.  I just actually enjoy her character.  With Wynne, the only enjoyment I get out of having her around is the perverse sort that comes from telling her to STFU or hearing others tell her the same.  Zevran and Morrigan are my favorites at putting her in her place, for instance.  Zevran's magical bosoms reaction to her condescending nonsense is lulzy.  Best is Morrigan's line "do you see a sign on my forehead saying 'please guide me'?"  Love that. 

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Death wish would've been marginally better. But it still doesn't mesh with the why wait til he has the upper hand to betray the Warden? That's not a death wish as it is springing a late trap. A Death wish would've been him continuing to try to fight the warden after released, or even better trying to poison the Warden at camp.
That would've been a death wish. 

He doesn't think he has the upper hand.  He knows he's going to lose.  Again, this is in the game, but you probably have never seen it.

Where he has the upper hand is when in camp, when he's been there awhile, and can poison the camp with something he's immune to.

You mean he's going to poison the dog, human, dwarf,  mage who knows about poisons, abomination, golem and potentiall elf/dwarf/human PC all with the same thing? <_< 

Really? He has far more of an upper hand at the incident with Taliesan than camp. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:08 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Edit: I also don't think your views on suicide are quite accurate.  People have different motivations.  There are people who commit suicide wanting to be saved -- but I don't think that is his motivation.  I honestly don't think he thought he could be saved.  It's possible it was just there underneath the surface, but he didn't analyze it and it wasn't until he really did start to change that he realized just why he took that contract.

You can kill yourself without really wanting to die. That said those are my views on suicide. I always felt that anyone who wants to be "saved" doesn't want to commit suicide, they're looking for someone to save them. (And then there's that just want attention). If you feel your life is not worth living, you kill yourself in quiet dignity. I never been fond of the "I'm gonna jump of the bridge!!!" people. I find them irritating instead of pitiable. Then again I'm a bit of a b****. 

I agree with you there.  As Zevran doesn't tell ANYONE except the warden this, and only after he trusts them completely, I don't think this was his motivation at all.  It just doesn't have the air of "save me" about it, especially as when he leaves, he tells Taliesen to stay home, that he doesn't want help (yes, it's in the game, but again, you probably would not have seen it).

[dbfandillyjam]

Ryzaki wrote...

dbfandillyjam wrote...

Let's not forget that The Chantry sees suicide as a severe sin. Zev and Ali actually have a conversation about faith and Zev mentions that after he completes a mission he asks The Maker for forgiveness and is devout in his own way. Taking poison is out right suicide and a disrespect to the Maker, death in battle is at least a respectable way to die.

Not if you do it with the intention of killing yourself. I'm sure suicide is more intent than means. If I jump infront of a moving train I still committed suicide. I just used the train as my weapon. 

I was refering to his self respect more than anything Zev's a very pround person.  He had acheved and servived so much already.  The Crows wouldn't know it was sucide.  So his dignaty (what little you can get among the Crows) in still intact.  I'm not dissagreeing with you on suiside.  It's a salfish thing to do. 

That aside I don't hate Wynne I just find her annoying.  I would never wish harm apon her aside from the occasional slap or a STFU.

Modifié par dbfandillyjam, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:11 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Death wish would've been marginally better. But it still doesn't mesh with the why wait til he has the upper hand to betray the Warden? That's not a death wish as it is springing a late trap. A Death wish would've been him continuing to try to fight the warden after released, or even better trying to poison the Warden at camp.
That would've been a death wish. 

He doesn't think he has the upper hand.  He knows he's going to lose.  Again, this is in the game, but you probably have never seen it.

Where he has the upper hand is when in camp, when he's been there awhile, and can poison the camp with something he's immune to.

You mean he's going to poison the dog, human, dwarf,  mage who knows about poisons, abomination, golem and potentiall elf/dwarf/human PC all with the same thing? <_< 

Really? He has far more of an upper hand at the incident with Taliesan than camp. 

He knows he is going to lose that fight.  Also, he knows of poisons that he can just, oh, slip into the food that won't kill him but will kill everyone else, before he slips off into the night.

Yep, I would say, yes, he believes that he has a better chance of succeeding with poison than he does of a fight he knows the warden will win.

Edit: I know this is information your warden doesn't have -- but it IS there.  If you see the betrayal, you won't see the dialogs I'm speaking of, but they are there.  I've never seen him betray my warden, that doesn't mean I deny that it happens.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan is ten times more valuable in my book and a lot more likeable.  She goes pretty much everywhere with me, even as a mage.  As far as I'm concerned, crowd control and destructo-mage > buff mage.

Good times are agreeing with Morrigan in the Circle about how pathetic they all are and then watching the fireworks.

...I'm not going into that trap. Must....resist.... Must....resist.....

...Morrigan...let's just say Wynne isn't the only hypocritical mage on the squad. Or ignorant. 

Oh sure, Morrigan has her weaknesses as they all do.  I just actually enjoy her character.  With Wynne, the only enjoyment I get out of having her around is the perverse sort that comes from telling her to STFU or hearing others tell her the same.  Zevran and Morrigan are my favorites at putting her in her place, for instance.  Zevran's magical bosoms reaction to her condescending nonsense is lulzy.  Best is Morrigan's line "do you see a sign on my forehead saying 'please guide me'?"  Love that. 

I kind of love Sten's deadpan snarking. Wynne is annoying though. Morrigan used to be funny until I saw I couldn't point out some of the flaws in her logic, then she became as annoying as Wynne. 

Though the way she says "I feel filthy. Don't speak to me anymore." Perfectly matches my reaction to Zevran's flirting with the female PC. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Oh sure, Morrigan has her weaknesses as they all do.  I just actually enjoy her character.  With Wynne, the only enjoyment I get out of having her around is the perverse sort that comes from telling her to STFU or hearing others tell her the same. 

Then you have to spare Loghain, he does it best.

[ejoslin]

To add to the Wynne hate (love that Wynne hate):



Wynne refusing to become first enchanter herself, but wanting the gray warden to leave the wardens to become the first enchanter really does show that she expects the gray warden to live up to a much higher standard than she herself could live up to.



"Be a gray warden, give up everything ,even happiness, and stop the blight. But, ummm, if you survive, go and become First Enchanter and make all those changes I want done but am not willing to do myself, even though I was offered the position."



Yep, that's Wynne.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
I agree with you there.  As Zevran doesn't tell ANYONE except the warden this, and only after he trusts them completely, I don't think this was his motivation at all.  It just doesn't have the air of "save me" about it, especially as when he leaves, he tells Taliesen to stay home, that he doesn't want help (yes, it's in the game, but again, you probably would not have seen it).

Actually I have seen all of this. But I'm talking about a neutral warden. How he reacts to the neutral warden is where my irritation arises from. That said I can't believe the suicidial stitch. If he was he'd have off'd himself he has the means to do so and he's not afraid of the act of death seeing how easily he attacks the Warden (who are known to be formiddable warriors) that group of mooks also aren't easy to beat. Maybe he realizes he was suicidal after some convos with the Warden but w/o those convos? I don't buy it. He tries to hard to attack at the opportune moment for it to be a death wish. Too much force. 

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I agree with you there.  As Zevran doesn't tell ANYONE except the warden this, and only after he trusts them completely, I don't think this was his motivation at all.  It just doesn't have the air of "save me" about it, especially as when he leaves, he tells Taliesen to stay home, that he doesn't want help (yes, it's in the game, but again, you probably would not have seen it).

Actually I have seen all of this. But I'm talking about a neutral warden. How he reacts to the neutral warden is where my irritation arises from. That said I can't believe the suicidial stitch. If he was he'd have off'd himself he has the means to do so and he's not afraid of the act of death seeing how easily he attacks the Warden (who are known to be formiddable warriors) that group of mooks also aren't easy to beat. Maybe he realizes he was suicidal after some convos with the Warden but w/o those convos? I don't buy it. He tries to hard to attack at the opportune moment for it to be a death wish. Too much force. 

So you have a problem with the writing.  Understandable.  But it is there.

And no, that first ambush is laughably bad.  His plan...  Have someone warn that there's an attack going on to lure them to be attacked?  And this from someone who specializes in stealth and poison?  No, the initial attack was a joke.  He ensures there's no element of surprise whatsoever.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, as far as Zevran killing himself -- there are three ways that this can happen in the game, all three are unsuccessful, but all three would have been very VERY dramatic.

First is, of course, the attack on the gray wardens.
Second is, when he offers to die for the warden against the archdemon (remember no one knows the Gray Warden's real requirement here).
Third is, if you do the US, he singlehandedly takes on the Crows.

All three of those pretty much have nil chance of succeeding.

I think you're hung up on the word "suicide." Would "death wish" be better?  Though, gah, it's hard to get past him saying that he wanted to die.  

Death wish would've been marginally better. But it still doesn't mesh with the why wait til he has the upper hand to betray the Warden? That's not a death wish as it is springing a late trap. A Death wish would've been him continuing to try to fight the warden after released, or even better trying to poison the Warden at camp.
That would've been a death wish. 

He doesn't think he has the upper hand.  He knows he's going to lose.  Again, this is in the game, but you probably have never seen it.

Where he has the upper hand is when in camp, when he's been there awhile, and can poison the camp with something he's immune to.

You mean he's going to poison the dog, human, dwarf,  mage who knows about poisons, abomination, golem and potentiall elf/dwarf/human PC all with the same thing? <_< 

Really? He has far more of an upper hand at the incident with Taliesan than camp. 

He knows he is going to lose that fight.  Also, he knows of poisons that he can just, oh, slip into the food that won't kill him but will kill everyone else, before he slips off into the night.

Yep, I would say, yes, he believes that he has a better chance of succeeding with poison than he does of a fight he knows the warden will win.

Edit: I know this is information your warden doesn't have -- but it IS there.  If you see the betrayal, you won't see the dialogs I'm speaking of, but they are there.  I've never seen him betray my warden, that doesn't mean I deny that it happens.

And everyone in camp is brain dead enough to let him handle the food? Seriously? You're stretching it. You're under the assumption that once in the party no one is suspicious of him in the least bit. As well as there's poisions that can kill everyone else but not him. This is exactly not the case. Morrigan doesn't trust him (and heck he's killing the Warden can interfere with her goals not going to happen), Shale doesn't trust him, Sten is kind of meh, Alistair...is....well Alistair. So unless he's immune to poison or the PC isn't an elf there's no poison he can use that'll kill everyone but not him. Now he might be able to kill just the PC and not himself. But the golem, dog, dwarf, qunari, wardens, both mages (one who distrusts everyone that's not herself!) isn't happening. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I agree with you there.  As Zevran doesn't tell ANYONE except the warden this, and only after he trusts them completely, I don't think this was his motivation at all.  It just doesn't have the air of "save me" about it, especially as when he leaves, he tells Taliesen to stay home, that he doesn't want help (yes, it's in the game, but again, you probably would not have seen it).

Actually I have seen all of this. But I'm talking about a neutral warden. How he reacts to the neutral warden is where my irritation arises from. That said I can't believe the suicidial stitch. If he was he'd have off'd himself he has the means to do so and he's not afraid of the act of death seeing how easily he attacks the Warden (who are known to be formiddable warriors) that group of mooks also aren't easy to beat. Maybe he realizes he was suicidal after some convos with the Warden but w/o those convos? I don't buy it. He tries to hard to attack at the opportune moment for it to be a death wish. Too much force. 

So you have a problem with the writing.  Understandable.  But it is there.

And no, that first ambush is laughably bad.  His plan...  Have someone warn that there's an attack going on to lure them to be attacked?  And this from someone who specializes in stealth and poison?  No, the initial attack was a joke.  He ensures there's no element of surprise whatsoever.

The fact that the PC falls for it is probably evidence enough that it's supposed to be "clever". *shakes head* When my pragamatic PC just starts following her I facepalmed. Anyone with half a brain would've started questioning her. 

Most importantly: How the heck did you get away? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The sentence that really summarizes Wynne hypocrisy is when she says at Ostagar that the young don't need the advice of the old. Oh, how wise I thought you were back then.

[jpdipity]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you feel your life is not worth living, you kill yourself in quiet dignity.

Many people will not kill themselves directly for religious reasons.  Zevran does claim to be a religious believer. 

[Ryzaki]

jpdipity wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you feel your life is not worth living, you kill yourself in quiet dignity.

Many people will not kill themselves directly for religious reasons.  Zevran does claim to be a religious believer. 

Which isn't that directly in contest with his job description/ he has no problems asking the Maker for forgiveness before doing it again with that one. (According to his convo with Alistair anyways). If he was really religious to the fact that suicidal was unacceptable repetitive murder would be so as well. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:32 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

If you feel your life is not worth living, you kill yourself in quiet dignity.

Many people will not kill themselves directly for religious reasons.  Zevran does claim to be a religious believer. 

Which isn't that directly in contest with his job description/ he has no problems asking the Maker for forgiveness before doing it again with that one. (According to his convo with Alistair anyways). If he was really religious to the fact that suicidal was unacceptable repetitive murder would be so as well. 

Well, that is a matter up to debate.  He was raised, from a very young child, to be a certain way.  He was taught, quite frankly, that he had one purpose, and that was to be a murderer.  He was taught to not form attachments, to not care for anyone, and that the world is a harsh, ugly place.  The fact that he would even consider murder something that he needs to ask forgiveness for is quite surprising.  

Given his backstory, I don't find it surprising that he would also be religious.  He did go to the chantry as a child apparently, and is remarkably well educated given his circumstances (probably chantry influence as the chantry does educate all children).  That doesn't change the fact that he was taught only to murder.  From the time he was 7.  Before 7, he learned all about sex and giving massages and that love is, in fact, something that is bought and sold.

[Wulfram]

I don't find attempting to stab me with sharp objects a very good form of suicide, really. Though I suppose it's an alternative explanation to Kylon's for why people volountarily attack the warden.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, that is a matter up to debate.  He was raised, from a very young child, to be a certain way.  He was taught, quite frankly, that he had one purpose, and that was to be a murderer.  He was taught to not form attachments, to not care for anyone, and that the world is a harsh, ugly place.  The fact that he would even consider murder something that he needs to ask forgiveness for is quite surprising.  

Given his backstory, I don't find it surprising that he would also be religious.  He did go to the chantry as a child apparently, and is remarkably well educated given his circumstances (probably chantry influence as the chantry does educate all children).  That doesn't change the fact that he was taught only to murder.  From the time he was 7.  Before 7, he learned all about sex and giving massages and that love is, in fact, something that is bought and sold.

I've never been religious myself. (that's what I get for being raised by a heretic). So I always assumed it was similar to my list of don'ts. Yes I have a list of donts.  If the list must be broken for a reason that's not valid then either somethnig was wrong with the list...or something is wrong with me. That's said those are just my morals. 

I don't think he thought love was bought and sold as much as pleasure was. He mocks the thoughts of love when the warden brings it up. A light mocking but enough to be sure that he doesn't take it seriously. Hell bringing up love earns disapproval. 

Still for one to believe strongly what they're doing is sinning and keep on doing it? It's one of those things I dislike. I'm not going into it (last thing we need is a flame war) but yeah. 

Then again. personal interpreation. I can't see him as turning his nose up at the thought of suicide when he's fine with murder. (And even seducing closeted sisters apparently.  )