576 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

Caladhiel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.

This. Urgh. I can't believe she'd say that! Even knowing he was happier where he was! What is wrong with that woman? 

It truly made me repent ever bringing her to Aneirin in the first place. It was all done so that *she* could sleep well at night without regard for Aneirin's feelings whatsoever, without listening to him, without giving tuppence about anything he said - if she did, she would never, ever have acted as disgracefully as she did. It really made me feel ashamed, and I felt bad for Aneirin for having confronted him with her again. 

The follow-up conversation for the mage Warden is even worse. *Imagines importing Halo-style weaponry into DA universe and using Wynne for target practice*

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

I've never been religious myself. (that's what I get for being raised by a heretic). So I always assumed it was similar to my list of don'ts. Yes I have a list of donts.  If the list must be broken for a reason that's not valid then either somethnig was wrong with the list...or something is wrong with me. That's said those are just my morals. 

I don't think he thought love was bought and sold as much as pleasure was. He mocks the thoughts of love when the warden brings it up. A light mocking but enough to be sure that he doesn't take it seriously. Hell bringing up love earns disapproval. 

Still for one to believe strongly what they're doing is sinning and keep on doing it? It's one of those things I dislike. I'm not going into it (last thing we need is a flame war) but yeah. 

Then again. personal interpreation. I can't see him as turning his nose up at the thought of suicide when he's fine with murder. (And even seducing closeted sisters apparently.  ) 

Have you ever seen Zevran's confession of love?  That is what I'm basing what I say on.  It's actually very sad, but very sweet at the same time.  A lot of people miss it, though, and think the last romance dialog is when he offers the earring.  When he confesses, he does say he was raised among those who sold the illusion of love.  Of course, it's pleasure, but we're also talking a business that plays into fantasies, and that is a common one.  

I also have a list of don'ts.  But I'm fairly sure my list would be FAR different if I were raised to be a murderer from the age of 7.

Edit: I am reasonably sure that the Antiva Chantry would most likely gloss over the badness of murder, given that it's the crows that keep them safe.  But even if not, I would imagine the intense conditioning that is given to crow recruits would nullify a lot of that.

Second edit: One of the reasons Zevran will break up with a warden is if they try to keep it a casual relationship after he falls in love.  Sex becomes and expression of love for him (oddly enough), and he cannot be with the warden without some sort of a commitment.

ANYWAY!  Ummmm, Wynne sucks

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, that is a matter up to debate.  He was raised, from a very young child, to be a certain way.  He was taught, quite frankly, that he had one purpose, and that was to be a murderer.  He was taught to not form attachments, to not care for anyone, and that the world is a harsh, ugly place.  The fact that he would even consider murder something that he needs to ask forgiveness for is quite surprising.  

Given his backstory, I don't find it surprising that he would also be religious.  He did go to the chantry as a child apparently, and is remarkably well educated given his circumstances (probably chantry influence as the chantry does educate all children).  That doesn't change the fact that he was taught only to murder.  From the time he was 7.  Before 7, he learned all about sex and giving massages and that love is, in fact, something that is bought and sold.

I've never been religious myself. (that's what I get for being raised by a heretic). So I always assumed it was similar to my list of don'ts. Yes I have a list of donts.  If the list must be broken for a reason that's not valid then either somethnig was wrong with the list...or something is wrong with me. That's said those are just my morals. 

I don't think he thought love was bought and sold as much as pleasure was. He mocks the thoughts of love when the warden brings it up. A light mocking but enough to be sure that he doesn't take it seriously. Hell bringing up love earns disapproval. 

Still for one to believe strongly what they're doing is sinning and keep on doing it? It's one of those things I dislike. I'm not going into it (last thing we need is a flame war) but yeah. 

Then again. personal interpreation. I can't see him as turning his nose up at the thought of suicide when he's fine with murder. (And even seducing closeted sisters apparently.  ) 

Have you ever seen Zevran's confession of love?  That is what I'm basing what I say on.  It's actually very sad, but very sweet at the same time.  A lot of people miss it, though, and think the last romance dialog is when he offers the earring.  When he confesses, he does say he was raised among those who sold the illusion of love.  Of course, it's pleasure, but we're also talking a business that plays into fantasies, and that is a common one.

I also have a list of don'ts.  But I'm fairly sure my list would be FAR different if I were raised to be a murderer.

Maybe. Or maybe it would be slightly altered. Who knows? He was also raised around torture. Is he okay with that? 

And if he's fine with taking other's lives but not his own... /shakes head

Oh well. He doesn't have to worry about it. My Warden happily kills him.  

Even if he's the only Bi option. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, that is a matter up to debate.  He was raised, from a very young child, to be a certain way.  He was taught, quite frankly, that he had one purpose, and that was to be a murderer.  He was taught to not form attachments, to not care for anyone, and that the world is a harsh, ugly place.  The fact that he would even consider murder something that he needs to ask forgiveness for is quite surprising.  

Given his backstory, I don't find it surprising that he would also be religious.  He did go to the chantry as a child apparently, and is remarkably well educated given his circumstances (probably chantry influence as the chantry does educate all children).  That doesn't change the fact that he was taught only to murder.  From the time he was 7.  Before 7, he learned all about sex and giving massages and that love is, in fact, something that is bought and sold.

I've never been religious myself. (that's what I get for being raised by a heretic). So I always assumed it was similar to my list of don'ts. Yes I have a list of donts.  If the list must be broken for a reason that's not valid then either somethnig was wrong with the list...or something is wrong with me. That's said those are just my morals. 

I don't think he thought love was bought and sold as much as pleasure was. He mocks the thoughts of love when the warden brings it up. A light mocking but enough to be sure that he doesn't take it seriously. Hell bringing up love earns disapproval. 

Still for one to believe strongly what they're doing is sinning and keep on doing it? It's one of those things I dislike. I'm not going into it (last thing we need is a flame war) but yeah. 

Then again. personal interpreation. I can't see him as turning his nose up at the thought of suicide when he's fine with murder. (And even seducing closeted sisters apparently.  ) 

Have you ever seen Zevran's confession of love?  That is what I'm basing what I say on.  It's actually very sad, but very sweet at the same time.  A lot of people miss it, though, and think the last romance dialog is when he offers the earring.  When he confesses, he does say he was raised among those who sold the illusion of love.  Of course, it's pleasure, but we're also talking a business that plays into fantasies, and that is a common one.

I also have a list of don'ts.  But I'm fairly sure my list would be FAR different if I were raised to be a murderer.

Maybe. Or maybe it would be slightly altered. Who knows? He was also raised around torture. Is he okay with that? 

And if he's fine with taking other's lives but not his own... /shakes head

Oh well. He doesn't have to worry about it. My Warden happily kills him.  

Even if he's the only Bi option. <_<

Well, to be fair, I didn't say that so I won't argue it either way.

But yeh, he was taught, from age 7, to be a murderer.  He wasn't taught to be a torturer.  If you ask me, it is far more repugnant to CHOOSE to be a murderer than to be raised to be one.  /shrug.  

*grin* He's one of two bi options.  And I'm glad every time when I don't kill him

[Ryzaki]

He was taught to lie, cheat and steal. and yet even when its too his advantage he won't lie to another LI about his relationship with the Warden. An assassin would be taught to take any advantage available yet he doesn't do that. I'm guess his childhood training had only so much influence over him. ...And he can't lockpick worth a damn. Damn liar.  I'd rather someone choose than to be raised as one. Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing. 

Nah. I just use Ser Gilmore (that mod was a godsend). Besides if I don't like the character it doesn't matter who else can romance him. I don't want to.
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

He was taught to lie, cheat and steal. and yet even when its too his advantage he won't lie to another LI about his relationship with the Warden. An assassin would be taught to take any advantage available yet he doesn't do that. I'm guess his childhood training had only so much influence over him. ...And he can't lockpick worth a damn. Damn liar.  I'd rather someone choose than to be raised as one. Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing. 

Nah. I just use Ser Gilmore (that mod was a godsend). Besides if I don't like the character it doesn't matter who else can romance him. I don't want to.
 

Yeh, he won't lie about his relationship with the warden.  Neither will the other love interest.  In fact, it will get to a point where he will make you choose.  Like, ummm, ALL the other love interests.  That's a strange argument.  What type of an advantage to you think he's seeking that he would lie about their relationship?  

Him not having lockpicking?  That is a stupid game mechanic.  He should, and does very quickly in my games

And I get you not liking him.  I do not like romancing Leliana.  The one time I did, she ended up trying to kill me, along with Wynne, at the urn.  At 100 love  At least with Zevran, if you two are going to the tent, he's not going to try to kill you

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Ryzaki]

Never said he didn't. I was just pointing out something his childhood would've taught him that he went against.

Eh. I already have Leliana sufficiently leveled up by that point. Wasting the points trying to get him to LP isn't worth it. Granted there's respec but meh.

LOL true that.Tis why I stick to romancing Alistair. He has his flaws but I can get over them pretty quickly. Zev's not so much. Not for me anyways.

And Leliana's creepy. I keep getting that bug where I romance her when...I didn't. "We spent that night together under the stars!" 

...What? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:43 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Never said he didn't. I was just pointing out something his childhood would've taught him that he went against.

Eh. I already have Leliana sufficiently leveled up by that point. Wasting the points trying to get him to LP isn't worth it. Granted there's respec but meh.

LOL true that.

See, that's the thing with Zevran -- why do you think he doesn't lie to the other Love Interest?  Why would he require you making a choice?  If he were just using the warden, it would make sense for him to lie.  If he's NOT using the warden but has some genuine feelings there, then yes, it makes perfect sense that he won't lie. He also disapproves highly if you break it off with him or try to make it nothing more than a one-night stand.

I use the respec mod.  I find it seriously annoying that he's supposed to be able to pick locks and can't (it makes no sense that an assassin cannot pick locks, really).

So yeh, Wynne at 100% friendly, after lecturing on and on about my duty as a gray warden, tries to kill me at the urn  Along with my warden's lover  Alistair hated my warden, and they tried to kill him too!

Wynne-sistancy!

[Ryzaki]

Which I find ridiculous. You say "you'll ask nothing more of me" yet I get a huge dissapproval for disagreeing? ...seriously man? It's almost as wallbangest as Alistair's sudden turn around after Redcliffe.

It really doesn't. And good lord is shapeshifting the worst spec ever. Whenever I use Morrigan I just use the "no abilities for companions" forgot the actual name but that's pretty much what it does mod. Seriously. Urgh.

Plus respecing Ali as a DWW is just awesome. He becomes a murder hurricane XD

Urgh. Wynne. I'm going to pass on everyone except me Ali and dog next playthrough. Oghren can stay at camp.

It should be fun.The three amigos doing good across the lands. (well...except for the dwarves and the elves but who really cares about them? Yay fanatic racism! )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which I find ridiculous. You say "you'll ask nothing more of me" yet I get a huge dissapproval for disagreeing? ...seriously man? It's almost as wallbangest as Alistair's sudden turn around after Redcliffe.

It really doesn't. And good lord is shapeshifting the worst spec ever. Whenever I use Morrigan I just use the "no abilities for companions" forgot the actual name but that's pretty much what it does mod. Seriously. Urgh.

Plus respecing Ali as a DWW is just awesome. He becomes a murder hurricane XD

Urgh. Wynne. I'm going to pass on everyone except me Ali and dog next playthrough. Oghren can stay at camp.

It should be fun.

No one likes being dumped, after all.  But it does make sense, if you believe his feelings are running deeper than even he is willing to admit (and if he falls in love, he does explain why).  When forcing you to choose, he's trying to make like it's no big deal, but he's supposed to sound like it's just a facade, that he doesn't really feel that way.  An interesting aside, Zevran will dump the warden in a few circumstances.  One of them being if he falls in love and you try to keep the relationship casual.

Yeh, I have no clue who came up with shapeshifting -- it is SO bad :/  

You can kick Oghren out of your party, btw.  Just tell him to GO!  He'll leave.  It's like it never happened in Awakening, but still, the option is there in Origins.  He'll either plan on opening a tavern or see if Felsi will take him in, depending.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah but *he* was the one to bring up that it could be casual. It's not like I randomly dumped him. >_>

Though yeah he'll dump the warden. Heck...I think the only one who doesn't dump you during the game is Morrigan and she's waiting for the end to ditch you. D:



...It could've been decent, If it didn't take so long to cast.



He'll leave? *checks* Oh. O_O My stupid self never noticed that. *facepalms* I killed him once and he still showed up in Awakening. I know my PC was just dying to ask: "Aren't you dead?"

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kornichon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
For someone to be suicidal they have to want to die. Or more exactly to want to kill themselves. Zevran doesn't show this. If he really wanted to kill himself as an assassin he'd know plenty of poisions and such that would kill him without pain and rather quickly. Instead he pleads for his life and then turns on the Warden when he has an advantage. That's not suicidal that's trying to kill someone at an oppoturne moment. 

ok. so did you ever tried to kill yourself?

some people can be suicidal, but that don't means they are able to do it theirself. You can see it as cowardise, but some people have a survival instinct stronger than others and can't do that. It's a "mental bolt".
(don't know if I explain it correctly)
and for Zevran who was trained to be an assassin, who have seen and survived horrible things, that's something that fit him completely.
and I think fighting the warden to find death is a way to end on a high note for an assassin carrier too.

Uh..There's a difference between the wangsty teenager who wants to die because he/she didn't get his/her way and someone who really doesn't think life's worth living anymore. 

If you can't do it yourself then you really don't want to die. A part of you no matter how small is clinging to life. You're not suicidal you're depressed. 

As an assassin he would know a way to kill himself that was painless and quick and the fear of death doesn't stop him from attacking your warden I doubt it would stop him from eating a plant. 

Wow. Just...wow. Way to be insensitive and make light of something like that.

I mean, really. 'Wangsty teenager who wants to die because he didn't get his way'? 

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wow. Just...wow. Way to be insensitive and make light of something like that.

I mean, really. 'Wangsty teenager who wants to die because he didn't get his way'? 

When someone wants to kill themselves because their boyfriend/girlfriend dumped them? Yes. It's wangst. When a kid threatens to kill him/her self because their life sucks it's a mixture of wangst and attention wh****ing. When the kid does it quietly but gets caught that's actually being suicidal. Someone who really wants to die is smart enough to realize drawing attention to that is determintal to your goal.

When someone wants to kill themselves because they have a genetic disorder that's slowly killing them anyways? Not wangst. These are also the people who want to be enthuanised from what I've seen. no big shows. No screaming and hollering. They just want to be able to die. And stupid beauracrats won't let them do that much legally. <_<

People throw around "suicidal" like it's a bloody fashion trend. It's not. If you don't feel life's worth living you're not necessarily suicidal. If you want to die. You are. Most people take A and confuse it for B. And then there's just the attention w****s. I feel no sympathy for them. You can think your life sucks and want it to end without wanting to die. You just want the bad things to stop. I understand and empathize with that. I've been there too. I'd wager most people have.

Now if your life sucks at the current moment I feel sorry for you up to the point where you climb onto of a bridge and screw up everyone else's day. Then you go from sympathetic to annoying.

And /shrugs I'm not the most sensitive person ever. I'll live.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:28 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah but *he* was the one to bring up that it could be casual. It's not like I randomly dumped him. >_>
Though yeah he'll dump the warden. Heck...I think the only one who doesn't dump you during the game is Morrigan and she's waiting for the end to ditch you. D:

...It could've been decent, If it didn't take so long to cast.

He'll leave? *checks* Oh. O_O My stupid self never noticed that. *facepalms* I killed him once and he still showed up in Awakening. I know my PC was just dying to ask: "Aren't you dead?"

See, that's why it's a real shame that so many people don't take Zevran's romance to the end (or they hit the bug where it won't advance to love).  You do learn a lot about him in his confession.  He does believe that it can be (and should be) casual, but his feelings are a whole different thing.  He is not what anyone would call aware of his feelings.  But even if it IS just casual, he has a genuine affection for the warden, despite his trying to minimize it. 

Doesn't Morrigan try to end it when she falls in love, but she can't bring herself to do so?  So she asks the warden to please please let her go?  

See, all four of the love stories go on such different paths.  Leliana, she has almost no resistance to falling in love (but interestingly, she has the fewest opportunities to start the romance) and once in love, is completely devoted.  Zevran, he fights falling in love the entire time, but once he does, requires a commitment and sex becomes an expression of love.  Alistair wants to fall in love, but after he falls in love, the implications hit him and he pulls away, and Morrigan does not want to fall in love, and once she does, realizes that she's in WAY over her head.

And Wynne disapproves of them all!

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Double Post. GAH. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Ryzaki]

O_O I make posts...and they vanish. I AM A BIOTIC GOD!

XD Sorry.

Anyways. I guess so. Hm...

Yeah she does. I always found that moment strangely touching despite my dislike of her. But I found it a "please don't please don't." kind of thing. She says she wants you too but she really doesn't want you to.

I actually like all of the romances (even if hilariously enough I can't stand the characters themselves).

...And she does dissapprove of them all doesn't she? Good grief. Is anything good enough for that woman?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Reaverwind]

Ryzaki wrote...

...And she does dissapprove of them all doesn't she? Good grief. Is anything good enough for that woman?

Nope, She couldn't have a real relationship, therefore neither should your PC.

[Tigress M]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.

Agreed!  The Templars named him maleficar.  Why on earth would Wynne think he'd want to go back after that??

[ejoslin]

Tigress M wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.

Agreed!  The Templars named him maleficar.  Why on earth would Wynne think he'd want to go back after that??

Perhaps she feels it would be best if he got tranquilized I suppose.  After all, I don't believe he was put through a harrowing.

[Tigress M]

Wulfram wrote...
I don't find attempting to stab me with sharp objects a very good form of suicide, really. Though I suppose it's an alternative explanation to Kylon's for why people volountarily attack the warden.

And I love that line!  I so wish we could recruit Kylon.  He's one of my favorite non-party NPCs.  I wonder how he would have reacted to Wynne?  

[Tigress M]

ejoslin wrote...

Tigress M wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...
Best proof that she missed her 'enlightenment' by a long shot is that she tries to convince the poor bugger to return to the Tower whence he came...

I absolutely hated that. And what I hated more was him being too polite aobut it and even saying he'd consider it!
If I was him, I'd have the strong urge to slap her. It's insulting.

Agreed!  The Templars named him maleficar.  Why on earth would Wynne think he'd want to go back after that??

Perhaps she feels it would be best if he got tranquilized I suppose.  After all, I don't believe he was put through a harrowing.

I could see that, despite the fact that he's renowned by the Dalish as a Healer.  But of course, that wouldn't matter to Wynne.  

[Sarah1281]

Perhaps she feels it would be best if he got tranquilized I suppose. After all, I don't believe he was put through a harrowing.

...I would hate her even more.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

Perhaps she feels it would be best if he got tranquilized I suppose.  After all, I don't believe he was put through a harrowing.

Perhaps she expects that this non-Andrastrian elf might provide a platform for religious debate in the Circle...yea, the Templars would so listen <_<

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Perhaps she feels it would be best if he got tranquilized I suppose. After all, I don't believe he was put through a harrowing.

...I would hate her even more.

But what else would happen to him if he returned to the circle?  He was branded a malificar and wasn't put through a Harrowing.  He had been living outside the circle for many many years.  She must know that the templars would view him as a serious threat so he'd either be executed or tranquilized.

As for why she thinks he'd want to go back, even if there weren't a great personal risk, I have no clue.  She really does seem to believe that all mages are happier and better off in the circle.

Edit: 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Perhaps she expects that this non-Andrastrian elf might provide a platform for religious debate in the Circle...yea, the Templars would so listen [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Yes!  That MUST be it!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

We learn in Awakening, via the Chantry Board, that the Templars are interested in studying elf magic and developing ways to counter them (the quest that involves bringing them sylvan wood). So I am afraid that if Aneirin, a Dalish mage, goes there, a fate worse than tranquilization would await him.