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Why I hate Wynne... let me count the ways


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#351
ejoslin

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Suprez30 wrote...


I don't hate Wynne at all . Yes it's a cliche but it's also true .Elderly people know more than you.Because they had much more time to think about what they have done than you .

The 20 years old guy  tapping every chick in the camp during a critical mission should be second guessed.You're not a veteran . You're a freshly recruited Grey Warden and if i were into his shoes i would certaintly love advice from someone who has much more experience than my  character.

Does she make mistake? Of course.But it's remind me of those people basicly going wild when they're true because it's give me lever over someone else.It's childish and immature and annoying.

During all of your life ppl that care about you , will lecture you.get over it and .....grow up?


I'm sorry, Wynne learned about the gray wardens how?  So she knows more about them how?  And your sex life is her business now?  A warden in a caring relationship needs to be told to break up and hurt herself and someone she cares for why?  

Now, keep in mind, YOU are the leader of the group -- the commanding officer if you must.  She asked to follow you, you did not ask her.  So already, that puts her on shaky ground when she gives advice -- it better be DAMN good.

Ok, we DO know this about Wynne and the advice she gives:

She knows nothing of the Gray Wardens other than what she's heard in legends, and often gives advice that is actually contradictory to Gray Warden principles because she believes in the fairy tales.

Wynne does not object if you're having sex with Morrigan and Zevran at the same time so it's not about her being upset about you "tapping" everyone you can.  She objects when the relationship turns serious (when the person hits adore).  

She tells you, outright and with zero basis, that she's worried you will shirk your duties as a Gray Warden if you're in a relationship.  This is, to put it mildly, is a very offensive thing to tell the person who is in charge.  Of course, once you fall in love, she apologizes, but wouldn't the risk be GREATER then?  It seems like something else is going on there.

Wynne turned down being first enchanter, but she wants a mage warden to drop the Gray Warden duties if she survives the blight to make the changes to the Circle that Wynne feels should be made, but that she refused to attempt to do herself.  And gets upset with you if you tell her you're a gray warden and YOU don't want to be first enchanter.

Wynne will lecture on and on about how your Ferelden's only hope, and that you must put duty above personal feelings, yet she will try to kill you at one point, which means she puts her personal feelings above stopping the blight.  Maybe what you did was heinous, but is that any reason to try and kill the people who you think are the only ones who can save Ferelden?  

Sometimes I think her advice is actually against herself.  These are mistakes she has made, and she expects the warden to repeat them but does not really have the basis even for that.  Because nothing I see in the Warden's behavior warrants the advice given.  

Or perhaps she's one of those people who are not nearly as smart nor as intuitive as they think.  I do know a few of those, but not all are older :)

Edit: We also know that Wynne overestimates her own power.  Had it not been for the warden, she would have kept a barrier erect until the templars came.  Even if she DID manage to fight her way to the sloth demon, she never would have escaped the nightmare.  Yet, when all is said and done, she thinks she did it, "with help."  Hmmmm, that she attacks the warden in a couple of circumstances kind of reinforces that.  She overestimates herself, and greatly underestimates the warden.

Ah well, I know people DO take pointing out Wynne's flaws as a personal insult.  I'm not quite sure why, but whatever.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 octobre 2010 - 04:59 .


#352
Sarah1281

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I mean, yeah, you may be just a recruit but Wynne trying to mentor you on being a Grey Warden is like a chef trying to mentor a fire fighter. She has no idea what the **** she's talking about and her presumption is unappreciated.

#353
Guest_Caladhiel_*

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Suprez30 wrote...
Back to Topic

I don't hate Wynne at all . Yes it's a cliche but it's also true .Elderly people know more than you.Because they had much more time to think about what they have done than you .

The 20 years old guy  tapping every chick in the camp during a critical mission should be second guessed.You're not a veteran . You're a freshly recruited Grey Warden and if i were into his shoes i would certaintly love advice from someone who has much more experience than my  character.

Does she make mistake? Of course.But it's remind me of those people basicly going wild when they're true because it's give me lever over someone else.It's childish and immature and annoying.

During all of your life ppl that care about you , will lecture you.get over it and .....grow up?


It always depends on who is lecturing you, and how. Just because someone is older than you doesn't necessarily mean that his advice is good - independent from whether you want to listen to his advice or not. If you listen to everything any older person tells you without using your own head, well...

And Wynne has so much more experience...how?
My Warden may be young, but I'm willing to bet that she's got a tiny bit more insight into what being a Gray Warden means than Wynne, who obviously follows some stylised ideal she's read in books. And I'm also willing to bet that my Warden has seen enough battle to be able to compare with a mage who's been holed up in the Tower for most of her life. As for the romance section: seeing how successful Wynne was in *that* department, I'm sure following her advice would certainly lead to a vast improvement of my situation.
If someone has no idea what he's talking about and - worse - only THINKS he knows what he's talking about, that's not the first person I would be taking any advice from.

#354
Sarah1281

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During all of your life ppl that care about you , will lecture you.get over it and .....grow up?

So wait...you think that not liking it when people who have no idea what they're talking about decide to start telling you how to do your job and live your life and you KNOW that they don't even practice what you preach it's a sign of immaturity? I rather think it would be more immature to just mindlessly accept her as wise and follow everything she says because she's older than you and age must equal wisdom.

#355
ejoslin

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 Ok, though I have posted both these links in this thread (one of them today) I will again link two examples of advice.

Bad advice -- Wynne's relationship advice
Good advice  -- Loghain's leadership advice

One is speaking from experience.  The other is trying to get someone to live up to an impossible ideal.

Loghain tries to help the warden face up to her responsibilities, and even gives coping advice.  Wynne tells the warden to do the painful and completely unnecessary.  Hell, I'm not even a Loghain fan, I see the value of his advice.  It doesn't take liking or disliking a character to know the value of their advice.

What I like best about Loghain's advice is he also says to consider the people in the warden's life -- not to just throw their life away when they have so much to live for.

Second edit: I"m tempted to trim down my post at the ToP as other people have said it better, and more succinctly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:07 .


#356
Giggles_Manically

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Wynne makes me laugh.



Playing as any warden her acting as a now it all is humorous.



HN, DE and DN: Probably lectured and taught all about duty, and what to do since they were born.

CE and DC: Have probably experience more of the real world in one month, than Wynne has experienced in all of her life.

Mage: I can see her giving a lecture to a mage warden, but honestly by the time I pick her up I think the Warden can take care of themselves.


#357
Reaverwind

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Suprez30 wrote...
 You're a freshly recruited Grey Warden and if i were into his shoes i would certaintly love advice from someone who has much more experience than my  character.


A warden recruit should seek advice from Wynne like an army recruit should seek advice from a pacifist.

#358
KnightofPhoenix

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I wonder what Wynne would say of the Wardens having drunk parties, as per Alistair's story.

#359
Giggles_Manically

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I wonder what Wynne would say of the Wardens having drunk parties, as per Alistair's story.

Or from raising villages to the ground, or conscripting good fighters by force into their ranks.

She honestly has the CAILAN GLOIRIOUS version of the wardens in her head.

#360
Ryzaki

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The sad thing is if Wynne really cared about the Warden as much as she claimed she would want them to experiences all those emotions and the like. Instead she's all about repression.

And yeah. Wardens are not good guys. They're people who just get the job done. (I find this hilarious if you act in a pragmatic way she spends the whole game hating you. XD)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:16 .


#361
Wulfram

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Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.

#362
Aeowyn

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She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


#363
ejoslin

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Wulfram wrote...

Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.


Well, it would be nice if the advice didn't assume that the warden was an immature, incompetent, naive child.  And it would be even nicer if the advice was actually good.

Edit: And Wynne doesn't say anything to you at the gates unless you're friendly.  At warm, she won't say goodbye either.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:22 .


#364
Giggles_Manically

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ejoslin wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.


Well, it would be nice if the advice didn't assume that the warden was an immature, incompetent, naive child.  And it would be even nicer if the advice was actually good.

And not entirely hypocritical, and quoted from a story book.

#365
KnightofPhoenix

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Wulfram wrote...

Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.


Maker forbid that we have someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

#366
Reaverwind

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Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


Her reaction to a Warden grieving over Alistair's demise just left me cold...

#367
KnightofPhoenix

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Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


Oh so that's why lol

Eh, she would have ruined the mood anyways. I was almost like this with all companions :crying:
Had she said something, I would have been like this :mellow:

So yea, it's good that she didn't talk.

#368
Addai

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Wulfram wrote...

Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.

She's free to nanny and condescend, and the PC is free to respond as expected.

What I've always said that bothers me about Wynne is not preachiness so much as hypocrisy.

#369
Ryzaki

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Reaverwind wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


Her reaction to a Warden grieving over Alistair's demise just left me cold...


OH god that made me rage.

"Oh. Who cares?" ....sure it wasn't exactly that but the way she says it so dismissively. <_<

#370
Aeowyn

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


Oh so that's why lol

Eh, she would have ruined the mood anyways. I was almost like this with all companions :crying:
Had she said something, I would have been like this :mellow:

So yea, it's good that she didn't talk.


Haha, it just left a bitter taste. And especially at the coronation scene when she says something insulting and your PC can say "what's that supposed to mean?" and she just smiles that horrid smile and says with a patronising voice "oh don't worry about it. go out and play."

My mage dreams of setting her on fire.

Eh, point of this was: why am I not surprised that she has to be a party pooper. Now the Archdemon is dead and the Warden STILL cant relax lol

Modifié par Aeowyn, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:29 .


#371
Ryzaki

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LOL I just watched the ARW mod and Wynne looks down at Oghren as if she expected him to be doing something rude. ...I don't know if it was just me but it fit so well with her patronizing that I burst out laughing.

...What does she say if Loghain sacrifices himself? I've stopped talking to her at this point/.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:30 .


#372
Sarah1281

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Wulfram wrote...

Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.

How are we trying to tell Wynne how to live her life? Well, besides not lecturing us but since when is asking someone to stop pestering us with useless platitudes trying to control their lives? And if she wants to not tell us her life story, I'm fine with it.



Her reaction to a Warden grieving over Alistair's demise just left me cold...

She was even worse if Loghain died instead. I mean, I get that she hates him. I will even grant that she has reason to do so. Still, he died to save her and everybody else from the Blight and she should be able to respect that instead of being all 'yeah, I don't care about him, he's EBIL!' I actually got more of a respectful vibe from ALISTAIR in that ending than from Wynne.

#373
Xilizhra

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What insulting thing does she say there?

#374
Reaverwind

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Aeowyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't even say good bye to you at the city gates if you're neutral on your way to become warm....


Oh so that's why lol

Eh, she would have ruined the mood anyways. I was almost like this with all companions :crying:
Had she said something, I would have been like this :mellow:

So yea, it's good that she didn't talk.


Haha, it just left a bitter taste. And especially at the coronation scene when she says something insulting and your PC can say "what's that supposed to mean?" and she just smiles that horrid smile and says with a patronising voice "oh don't worry about it. go out and play."

My mage dreams of setting her on fire.


Don't dream - just do it. I got a laugh out of explaining to Alistair that she might be a demon trying to trick the party right before we vaporised her during the Broken Circle questline.

#375
Wulfram

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Maker forbid that a mere NPC should care about who her leader is, or what sort of person they are. They should simply regurgitate their life story on command, and let the PC tell them how they should live their life.

How are we trying to tell Wynne how to live her life? Well, besides not lecturing us but since when is asking someone to stop pestering us with useless platitudes trying to control their lives? And if she wants to not tell us her life story, I'm fine with it.


Finding Aneirin probably counts.  But I'm talking about the way the PC deals with NPCs in general.  Really, it's much the same as Wynne does, except in that case we're the ones who initiate the conversation, while Wynne's lectures IIRC only get delivered to a PC who is choosing to talk to her.

She can be a total jerk about the romance though, I'll agree with that.  And her lectures are a bit on the generic side, since they have to work for any PC available.