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[Giggles_Manically]

mousestalker wrote...

The exact same thing she says with every other origin. Never mind that your father is standing right there.

Morrigan is worse in that scene.

The kind of person who would murder their family and childhood friends in a blood ritual, to make themselves stronger sickens me.

[Xilizhra]

Does she know he's your father, though?

[Wulfram]

mousestalker wrote...

The exact same thing she says with every other origin. Never mind that your father is standing right there.

I put that one down to Bioware being sloppy.

It's also still a hell of a lot better than Morrigan's "tad messy" comment at the same point

[Aeowyn]

Well she should know, considering that Shianni tells you that your father have been taken and you have the option to ask where your father is when you 1. Free the caged elves in the Hospice 2. Talk to the crazy elf in the apartment building

[Sarah1281]

mousestalker wrote...

Wynne has an idealized view of the Grey Wardens. My Cousland was pretty noble. My Tabris was a rage filled revenge weasel. My Brosca was a former carta enforcer. My Amell aided a maleficar to escape. My Suranna was an informant. My Aeducan was convicted of killing her brother. My Mahariel hated all things human. The only character that really got along with Wynne was my Cousland who romanced Alistair.

None of the Tabris sisters could stand her. She displays a massive lack of empathy when talking to Caladrius. It's hard to not let that colour your view of Wynne.

You know, come to think of it I have an origin-specific reaso to be peeved at Wynne as well though it's obviously not as bad as her being convinced that you're going to use EVIL BLOOD MAGIC to kill your own fathre and arguing against the evils of blood magic instead of the family connection.

If you, any origin, have Wynne in your party while you tell Vartag that you want to switch sides then you get this exchange:

(IF: Wynne in party) Wynne: "What are you doing? You gave Lord Harrowmont your word!" (VO: outraged)
Vartag: "My lady, you do not know Harrowmont as we do. Long has he plotted to steal the throne from the Aeducans--" (VO: in an overly polite, sweet way trying to win someone over)
(IF: PC is dwarf noble) Wynne: "Just as your Prince Bhelen plotted to have his siblings killed and exiled?" (VO: not buying it)
(IF: PC is NOT dwarf noble) Wynne: "And they say your prince killed his own brother and father." (VO: with distaste)
Wynne: "It seems it is only Lord Harrowmont's influence that prevented him from profiting from his crime." (VO: approves of Harrowmont)
Vartag: "Keep your companion under control. I would hate to see her thrown into the Deep Roads because of a... cultural misunderstanding." (VO: threatening quietly)

(IF: PC is dwarf noble)
Wynne: "Don't do this. Your brother used you once; he will do so again." (VO: a reasoned appeal to the player)
1. He is still family. I must find it in me to forgive him.
(passed persuade check) Wynne: "Then you are a better person than I am." (VO: grudingly)

(failed persuade check) Wynne: "Forgive him, yes, but from a distance. Must you get so close?" (VO: appealing to the player's good sense)
1a. I do not wish to argue this. I made my decision. *See line 4*
1b. Yes, if only to irritate you. *Same response as line 4*
1c. You're right. I shouldn't be so foolhardy. *See line 2*
1d. Fine. If it will please you, I will not work with Bhelen. *See line 3*

2. You're right. I shouldn't be so foolhardy.
Vartag: "You and I have nothing more to discuss until you come back to kneel before the rightful king." (VO: cold, a little vicious) *END DIALOGUE*

3. Fine. If it will please you, I will not work with Bhelen.
Vartag: "You and I have nothing more to discuss until you come back to kneel before the rightful king." (VO: cold, a little vicious) *END DIALOGUE*

4. I do not wish to argue this. I made my decision.
Wynne - [APPROVAL: low decrease]
(IF: Sten in party) Sten - [APPROVAL: low decrease]

My problem, of course, is that not only is 'OMG, you gave someone your word!' absolute BS in dwarven politics but she's totally making me look weak by challenging me in front of Bhelen's lacky. Especially in such mushy, idealistic terms. Admittedly, Sten and Shale also complain that you won't make up your mind but then I don't bring them along either and it's still somehow less annoying than Wynne being a moral guardian in Orzammar politics. Does she think that the DN somehow forgot what Bhelen did? Honestly.

And if she must discuss the matter, she should have brought it up once Vartag was no longer within hearing range.

[Xilizhra]

Does she say the same thing if you switch from Bhelen to Harrowmont?

[Sarah1281]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does she say the same thing if you switch from Bhelen to Harrowmont?

No. The gist of the switches is from Harrowmont-to-Bhelen it's about how Harrowmont is weak and so you're going with Bhelen. From Bhelen to Harrowmont it's about how 'evil' Bhelen is and so Wynne would probably approve.

[Reaverwind]

Sarah1281 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Wynne has an idealized view of the Grey Wardens. My Cousland was pretty noble. My Tabris was a rage filled revenge weasel. My Brosca was a former carta enforcer. My Amell aided a maleficar to escape. My Suranna was an informant. My Aeducan was convicted of killing her brother. My Mahariel hated all things human. The only character that really got along with Wynne was my Cousland who romanced Alistair.

None of the Tabris sisters could stand her. She displays a massive lack of empathy when talking to Caladrius. It's hard to not let that colour your view of Wynne.

You know, come to think of it I have an origin-specific reaso to be peeved at Wynne as well though it's obviously not as bad as her being convinced that you're going to use EVIL BLOOD MAGIC to kill your own fathre and arguing against the evils of blood magic instead of the family connection.

Since I don't generally play mages who can't wait to get back to the Tower, my mages also have several origin-specific reasons to really dislike Wynne.

[CalJones]

That's pretty bad, Sarah. I didn't take her around Orzammar when I was playing my dwarves...actually I don't take her many places, if I take her with me at all.

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You certainly don't SEEM like you understand him as half your post is again, dismissing a significant part of his backstory.   

I personally do not care whether you kill him in your games or not Or whether you come up with your own motivations for his actions. But stating your opinion as fact even though it goes against the written backstory makes it a bit hard to take your arguments seriously.

His backstory means jacksquat if it's not supported by his actions in game. Like I said about my Warden. 

A LOT of people hate Zevran. That does not bother me. He's a fictional character with a very complex story. If you choose to dismiss it, that's your choice. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Never said he didn't. I just said his being "suicidal" just didn't mesh with his actions regarding the Warden. 

Ok, I'm not even going to read through the rest of the thread before responding to this stupidity.

People are more complex than you seem to think.  Apparently you've never known someone who has been suicidal before.  It's not like wanting to die consumes one's every thought.  Rather, there are certain things that can set the person on the path to suicide, or dissuade them from it.  For most, being suicidal is actually very conditional... the possibility is there in the back of their mind, but that does not mean they will go through with it on their first or even second try, nor does it mean they will keep wanting to die after surviving a suicidal attempt.


Zevran became suicidal when he realized what he is, and how meaningless his life is.  He is a proud person who likely would not feel comfortable turning his own blade upon himself.  To do so would show  weakness and cowardice to his fellow Crows, and would please his cruel master.  He would not want to be remembered for that, but he does want to be remembered.  As an assassin who's known violence his whole life, it makes complete sense that, when he wants to self-destruct, he would do so by throwing himself into a situation that seems unsurvivable.  In his mind, death by Grey Warden was probably the most impressive and honerable death he could find as a Crow.  If you always believed you would one day die at the hands of your mark, wouldn't you rather that mark be an absolute legend?

When his mark spares him, he decides this might be a chance at a new life, so he decides to live.  However, if the Warden is unkind to him, or merely treats him like some meaningless subordinate, then his life has not changed in his mind.  He sees himself at first, under the Warden, as still a slave.  This comes up in dialogue, thinly veiled.  If you don't get past this point in the relationship, then, in his mind, you aren't much different from his previous master.  You are merely using him, and he means nothing to you.  Yet, if he runs from you, the other Crows will find him and who knows what they will do if they take him alive.  So he's just kind of in limbo, testing weather or not life can change.

When the Taliesin encounter happens with a neutral or negative Zevran, he knows how powerful you and your allies are, and that this is likely his death.  But he chooses to fight and die along side Taliesen rather than be your slave, or continue running from the Crows.  Him and Taliesen care for each other, that much is clear.  They were likely the closest thing to a meaningful human relationship ether of them ever had, even if being a Crow would prevent them from taking the relationship very far.  From Zevran's POV, it's FAR more honorable to die at the side of his friend in a final glorious battle, knowing that this friend has risked himself and is dying because of a last attempt at being with him, than it would be to kill the only person who seems to truly care for him in order to protect a new master who does NOT care for him.


Zevran's actions do make perfect sense in relation to his background.  He's simply more complex than what you seem to like.  If things worked the way YOU insist they should, he would have been a simple one dimensional character, bound by his word, his world revolving around the player character who can do no wrong.  If you want obedience, you have a dog.  Or a Lelliana.  Just sayn'.

[Ryzaki]

EccentricSage wrote...

Ok, I'm not even going to read through the rest of the thread before responding to this stupidity.

Great way to convince me to take anything you say seriously.

People are more complex than you seem to think.  Apparently you've never known someone who has been suicidal before.  It's not like wanting to die consumes one's every thought.  Rather, there are certain things that can set the person on the path to suicide, or dissuade them from it.  For most, being suicidal is actually very conditional... the possibility is there in the back of their mind, but that does not mean they will go through with it on their first or even second try, nor does it mean they will keep wanting to die after surviving a suicidal attempt.

Of course because you know about me. Totally.   And again I've always had a line between wanting the bad times in your life to end and wanting your life to end. They are not the same thing. You can have the best life in the world and want your life to come to an end and vice versa. Zevran simply wanted to be free from the crows however he could the only way he saw at first was through death. I have wanted the bad times in my life to end and was willing to end my life to do so. I was helped and those times are thankfully now over. So no I didn't see Zevran as suicidal as much as trying to escape a situation he didn't like the easiest way he saw how.

Zevran became suicidal when he realized what he is, and how meaningless his life is.  He is a proud person who likely would not feel comfortable turning his own blade upon himself.  To do so would show  weakness and cowardice to his fellow Crows, and would please his cruel master.  He would not want to be remembered for that, but he does want to be remembered.  As an assassin who's known violence his whole life, it makes complete sense that, when he wants to self-destruct, he would do so by throwing himself into a situation that seems unsurvivable.  In his mind, death by Grey Warden was probably the most impressive and honerable death he could find as a Crow.  If you always believed you would one day die at the hands of your mark, wouldn't you rather that mark be an absolute legend?

Warden is a nobody at the time of the attack. The warden is a newb Warden that just got one treaty completed, he/she has little fame and little power. And where is it said he's too proud to end his own life? So pleading for his life isn't showing weakness and cowardice? And once again why ask for his life? Why not accept death? For the new life? What proof does he have of the Warden being better than the crows? For that matter he kneows the Crows will eventually come after him for his failure if he survives (unless he plans on stabbing the Warden in the back in which he's still probably be punished). So he either goes with the Warden knowing that the Crows will be after him and accepts that or he plans on killing the Warden later.

When his mark spares him, he decides this might be a chance at a new life, so he decides to live.  However, if the Warden is unkind to him, or merely treats him like some meaningless subordinate, then his life has not changed in his mind.  He sees himself at first, under the Warden, as still a slave.  This comes up in dialogue, thinly veiled.  If you don't get past this point in the relationship, then, in his mind, you aren't much different from his previous master.  You are merely using him, and he means nothing to you.  Yet, if he runs from you, the other Crows will find him and who knows what they will do if they take him alive.  So he's just kind of in limbo, testing weather or not life can change.

And this iisn't true. My Warden didn't mistreat him in any way shape or form. I said NEUTRAL not hostile. His life has changed, there's no test needed he's gone from being tortured to being able to speak his mind freely and the ability to ask the Warden to leave whenever he wishes. If he chooses not to do so that was his fault. He wants the warden to approach him and to mollycoddle him. I have no desire to hold his hand. It's just not enough for him. He wants to feel special, important. The warden doesn't have to treat him like a slave. For all we know he sat at camp all the time. Or simply fought alongside the Warden. The Warden didn't browbeat him or dismiss his opinons. He wasn't tortured.

When the Taliesin encounter happens with a neutral or negative Zevran, he knows how powerful you and your allies are, and that this is likely his death.  But he chooses to fight and die along side Taliesen rather than be your slave, or continue running from the Crows.  Him and Taliesen care for each other, that much is clear.  They were likely the closest thing to a meaningful human relationship ether of them ever had, even if being a Crow would prevent them from taking the relationship very far.  From Zevran's POV, it's FAR more honorable to die at the side of his friend in a final glorious battle, knowing that this friend has risked himself and is dying because of a last attempt at being with him, than it would be to kill the only person who seems to truly care for him in order to protect a new master who does NOT care for him.

But I thank you for your viewpoint. His betrayal now makes a lot more sense. He was simply protecting his friend/lover. That is something I can admire. The only reason he wouldn't betray the warden is if he was closer to the Warden than his friend/lover and since they were merely Commander and Soldier there was no such relationship. Thus his betrayal is understandable. There was no "slavery" other than in his head.

Zevran's actions do make perfect sense in relation to his background.  He's simply more complex than what you seem to like.  If things worked the way YOU insist they should, he would have been a simple one dimensional character, bound by his word, his world revolving around the player character who can do no wrong.  If you want obedience, you have a dog.  Or a Lelliana.  Just sayn'.

Right. Because Leliana turning on you for defiling the ashes is her being a doormat. Might want to spell her name right to.

All the companions can be doormats. Zevran just as so. Why not leave the crows if he hates them so much? Why not leave the Warden if he thinks he's being mistreated? Why follow the Warden around no matter what the Warden does?

When people have to place down another character to make theirs look better...

Never said the guy wasn't complicated. I love how people get so offended over fictional characters. Reminds me of the good old days on the Death Note boards. Ah. You'd think some of them were in love with Light or something. ...Got a bit creepy with all the pictures though.

Your defense would've been a lot better if you hadn't had to resort to insult other characters.

Also: Your whole post assumes Zevran is being mistreated by the Warden when in fact that's not true. Not becoming friendly with someone isn't mistreating them. If it was every single soldier that wasn't close to their commanders would be being mistreated. That is simply not the case.

Edit: However it seems the whole betrayal arc is him defending his friend/lover. Which makes sense, its still a betrayal to the Warden but it makes sense.

Also: If things worked the way I thought they should he would've attacked the Warden at camp or never pleaded for his life in the first place. (Granted before this post I would've said left the Warden to deal with Taliesan on his own but knowing they were friends/lovers...).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Zjarcal]

EccentricSage wrote...
If you want obedience, you have a dog.  Or a Lelliana.  Just sayn'.

You had to bash Leli in your post. How great. It really adds a lot of validity to your (rather good) defense of Zevran. <_<

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Ryzaki]

Anyways...wasn't this thread about Wynne hate? 

So afraid of blood magic that she snitches on the Warden who saved her life. Even when everyone else was more than willing to let it slide.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:37 .

[Bruddajakka]

I love that Irving covers for you as long as you don't come right out, and admit it. Grey Warden magic

Modifié par Bruddajakka, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:37 .

[EccentricSage]

Zjarcal wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
If you want obedience, you have a dog.  Or a Lelliana.  Just sayn'.

You had to bash Leli in your post. How great. It really adds a lot of validity to your (rather good) defense of Zevran. <_<

I was only joking about Lel.  Please don't take it seriously.  No, I don't like her, but I'm not really looking to start s*** about it, don't worry.

[EccentricSage]

Ok... this might be a bit of a mess, because I'm sleepy, but if I don't respond now, I never will get around to it....



Ryzaki, I thought your statement was stupid because it seemed you were continuously discrediting the facts put forth by people who know the character better than you, just because you don't like the character or his plot. It's very rude and presumptuous, which got under my skin.



The part about Lel was just a joke about my dislike for her. No argument was being made about Lel. I did not mention her to compare her to Zevran. If I were using her in an argument, there would have been an actual argument made.



You just described your own example of suicidal feelings in a way that mirrors Zevran's. He had no hope, no meaning, and death seemed the only way out. He states as much when he tells the Warden about Rinna. When he saw hope, he decided to live. But he did not get help from anyone afterwords. You said he became nothing more than a soldier to you. How would that help someone get over the internal issues that have made them suicidal? You know, it's not uncommon for suicidal people to try and fail multiple times, or plan a suicide and then back out. The fact that they have a natural fear of self harm does not make them cowards, nor does it mean that they can not be considered suicidal. You claim to have been suicidal, and yet you live, so by your own previous arguments your claims of having been suicidal would be null, as you did not follow through. You argued that clearly Zevran wanted to live, so he does not count. That means you would not count ether. We both know it does not work that way.



Zevran, at the time, wanted his life to end, because he saw that as the only way to escape the pain in his life. The hope he gains after being spared is entirely dependant upon weather or not anyone gets close enough to him to help him through what he's feeling. This is a man who's been severely traumatized and abused his whole life. He's not just going to suddenly have a complete change of feelings and world view just because he's traveling with someone different. It takes some sort of bond forming, no matter how minor, for him to start dealing with what he has been through, and for him to realize he does not have to live as he did under the Crows. Otherwise, when you get to the Taliesen fight, he's ready to throw his life away. Helping someone who fights at your side get over some serious trauma is not molycodeling.



As for his 'betrayal' of your warden, my point is that he is not betraying the warden in his own eyes, he sees the warden as a new master. If you are indifferent, why should he care about your warden? He's not attacking to be cruel. It is not personal in his eyes. He is an assassin. He is at neutral, after all. As others have pointed out, what else would you expect?



I'm glad you are open to the info about him having a background with Taliesen. I'm sorry I made it sound personal towards you. I can't stand people who look the facts of a plot line in the face and say it's wrong just because they don't like it. But I realize that maybe it's partially been a misunderstanding.



Zevran also did not plead for his life, though. He was being calm and reasonable about it. If you decide to kill him, he does not beg, just makes a request, seemingly in jest, that you not disfigure or devour his corps. As for pride, you never got to know the character in detail. So you never knew about his pride, the fact he shows a desire to be valued, the fact his master told him that his life means nothing, and his death will mean nothing. How can you make assumptions about the character's motivations as you do when you know little of the character? And then you had the nerve to say his actions don't match his background, despite not knowing much about him. It seemed a bit insulting to the writer, as well as to those who try to explain the character's background and psychology to you. It's not for the love of the character that I got pissed off, as much as for the love of fellow fans and writer, who I thought deserved a bit more respect than that.



For example, I don't like Lel. But I'm not going to make **** up about how her plot is somehow wrong. She is what she is, and some people like that while others loath that. She is well written, overall, as is Zevran, as is Wynne. It's fine not to like a character. It's fine to hate a character. It's fine not to like Zevran. But I'm calling BS on the 'Zevran was not suicidal' arguments, as well as your statement that Zevran 'pleaded'. It's all in-game.

[EccentricSage]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anyways...wasn't this thread about Wynne hate? 

So afraid of blood magic that she snitches on the Warden who saved her life. Even when everyone else was more than willing to let it slide.

The Wynne hate we can agree uppon.  She's probably the most selfish and hypocritical companion, from what I've seen.  I mean, Morrigan's pretty bad, but at least she's honest about her selfishness, and knows herself.  Wynne claims to want to help others, and makes all this BS up about her noble quest, when really she has selfish alterior motives for everything... escaping the tower, using a 'fade spirit' for power even though that makes her an abomination, atacking the people whom she's personally called Ferelden's only hope, because they don't obey her.

I would find her character tragically flawed rather than disguesting, if her own fears and failings gave her any humility, or a sence of real empathy for others.  Yet she actually is very judgemental of anyone who does not kiss her ass.  Zevran might tease her, forinstance, but his words are never unkind, for example, yet we all know how she feals about him.  She never bothers to get to know her companions before judging them.  Hence her BS about Lelliana being guilless, and her lack of sympathy for the slavery and brainwashing Zevran was put through. 

She's always the first to take credit for work that was not her doing.  Yet she even treats Alistair poorly, constantly chastising him, even though he's an orphan looking for a parental figure to show him some kindness and caring.  While Alistair's childish whining can be obnoxious, Wynne's callously toying with him is sickening. 

I remember my Dalish, who knew little of the terrifying and hostile world outside of his Clan, being told a story by her about the Grey Warden's of old, and their Griffins.  Neadless to say, the thought of riding Griffins filled his lil' elven heart with a rare and fleating glee.  Which she promptle chastized him for, calling him a child.  WTF ****.  Finally something in the world that isn't horrific and hostile, and he can't be alowed some wonder and joy?  She's such a cold hearted ****.  That was my first playthrough, and that was the point at which my opinion of her and fealings towards her took a very sharp turn.

And don't even get me started on the fade, and Anorin, etc.... I know lots of people have ranted about that already.  The whole personal quest was completely rediculous.  I was a bit pissed that I did not get to interject with my opinion, and thought it was an unfortunate choice on the Writer's part to make Anorin so gracious a character.  It was intensely unsatisfying.  Granted, I kind of get that maybe the writer wanted to provide a contrast by making anorin such a kind, polite, level headed person.  But I fealt irrationaly offended on behalf of this fictional character and wanted to tell Wynne off myself.  I often wonder if it was in fact the writer's intention to make Wynne so deplorable.  I hope so, because it works well.  She really provides a stark contrast to many of the other characters that seem on the surface to be purely amoral.  Here you have this woman pretending to be all about rightiousness and morality, and noble deeds, yet her motivations are anything but, and her worldview is rather frightening to me the more I learn of it.  Particularly her teaching others to be wholey self sacraficing and to accept their fates no matter how unjust. 

[Ryzaki]

EccentricSage wrote...

Ok... this might be a bit of a mess, because I'm sleepy, but if I don't respond now, I never will get around to it....

Ryzaki, I thought your statement was stupid because it seemed you were continuously discrediting the facts put forth by people who know the character better than you, just because you don't like the character or his plot. It's very rude and presumptuous, which got under my skin.

The part about Lel was just a joke about my dislike for her. No argument was being made about Lel. I did not mention her to compare her to Zevran. If I were using her in an argument, there would have been an actual argument made.

Calling her a "doormat" would be the same as me calling Zevran pleading for his life then no? And that's as much a joke as me saying Zevran is a sleeze that'll sleep with anything that gave him the right look. ...Oh wait that's not a good comparison because it's actually true.

Ha-ha? 
And your post was totally not rude and prosumptous at all.

You just described your own example of suicidal feelings in a way that mirrors Zevran's. He had no hope, no meaning, and death seemed the only way out. He states as much when he tells the Warden about Rinna. When he saw hope, he decided to live. But he did not get help from anyone afterwords. You said he became nothing more than a soldier to you. How would that help someone get over the internal issues that have made them suicidal? You know, it's not uncommon for suicidal people to try and fail multiple times, or plan a suicide and then back out. The fact that they have a natural fear of self harm does not make them cowards, nor does it mean that they can not be considered suicidal. You claim to have been suicidal, and yet you live, so by your own previous arguments your claims of having been suicidal would be null, as you did not follow through. You argued that clearly Zevran wanted to live, so he does not count. That means you would not count ether. We both know it does not work that way.

No. I clearly told you what I meant. Now if you feel that he was being suicidal then that's you. He wasn't being suicidal to me. Just trying to find the easiest way out. I never said I was suicidal just that I wanted the bad times in my life to end. Wanting bad things to stop =/= wanting to die. Being willing to end your life to stop them isn't equal to actually desiring to die. That's the difference. It's like the only way to stop someone's pain is by killing them, you don't actually want them to die but you'll do anything to make their pain stop. If you found a magical medicine right before you killed them you'd inject them with the meds. If Zevran found a way out of the Crows that didn't involve his death, he would've took it.

Yes the dictionary says suicide = intionally causing ones death but how is Zev comitting suicide by taking on the Warden? (Heck it could just be the Warden and Alistair on some playthroughs). He actually believes that group of mooks he has will be taken out with just 2 people? He has no way of knowing how many people are with the Warden, sets up an ambush and attacks. That wasn't sucidial. Being sucidial would've been attacking the Warden on his own. He had a blood mage with him for pete's sake!

Edit: Heck just to check I replayed the whole part where you recruit him. You can ask him to kill Loghain. Guess what his excuse is? He doesn't want to die. If he was so keen on having a new life without the Warden he'd just lie say yes and ditch. He doesn't though. Zevran certainly isn't above lying. He wants the Warden's protection specifically. (Even if you tell him just to go he mentions it being a death sentence before leaving). Also he proposes the idea to the Warden about sparing him. Why not just be uncooperative and let the Warden kill him? (Frankly the thought of the Warden always sparing him specifically always hit me as a bit of a wallbanger.)

For someone suicidal that's certainly a lot of specifications about death.

Zevran, at the time, wanted his life to end, because he saw that as the only way to escape the pain in his life. The hope he gains after being spared is entirely dependant upon weather or not anyone gets close enough to him to help him through what he's feeling. This is a man who's been severely traumatized and abused his whole life. He's not just going to suddenly have a complete change of feelings and world view just because he's traveling with someone different. It takes some sort of bond forming, no matter how minor, for him to start dealing with what he has been through, and for him to realize he does not have to live as he did under the Crows. Otherwise, when you get to the Taliesen fight, he's ready to throw his life away. Helping someone who fights at your side get over some serious trauma is not molycodeling.

And this is where we disagreee. Frankly whenever I did talk to him and was honest (not praising him being an assassin for one) I constantly got huge dissapprovals. Ra forbid someone tells him how they really feel.

As for his 'betrayal' of your warden, my point is that he is not betraying the warden in his own eyes, he sees the warden as a new master. If you are indifferent, why should he care about your warden? He's not attacking to be cruel. It is not personal in his eyes. He is an assassin. He is at neutral, after all. As others have pointed out, what else would you expect?

I didn't expect anything else now that I see why. But it is a betrayal. He gave a vow. It may have not meant anything to him but he gave his word and went back on it. Thus betrayal.

I'm glad you are open to the info about him having a background with Taliesen. I'm sorry I made it sound personal towards you. I can't stand people who look the facts of a plot line in the face and say it's wrong just because they don't like it. But I realize that maybe it's partially been a misunderstanding.

Zevran also did not plead for his life, though. He was being calm and reasonable about it. If you decide to kill him, he does not beg, just makes a request, seemingly in jest, that you not disfigure or devour his corps. As for pride, you never got to know the character in detail. So you never knew about his pride, the fact he shows a desire to be valued, the fact his master told him that his life means nothing, and his death will mean nothing. How can you make assumptions about the character's motivations as you do when you know little of the character? And then you had the nerve to say his actions don't match his background, despite not knowing much about him. It seemed a bit insulting to the writer, as well as to those who try to explain the character's background and psychology to you. It's not for the love of the character that I got pissed off, as much as for the love of fellow fans and writer, who I thought deserved a bit more respect than that.

For example, I don't like Lel. But I'm not going to make **** up about how her plot is somehow wrong. She is what she is, and some people like that while others loath that. She is well written, overall, as is Zevran, as is Wynne. It's fine not to like a character. It's fine to hate a character. It's fine not to like Zevran. But I'm calling BS on the 'Zevran was not suicidal' arguments, as well as your statement that Zevran 'pleaded'. It's all in-game.

He wasn't suicidal to me though. The fact that he is so open to traveling with the Warden along with the fact that he didn't kill himself points to me as being otherwise. He wanted his life to change, got it with the Warden and when he realized it wasn't as good as he wanted stabbed the Warden in the back.

And what s*** did I make up about his plot being somehow wrong? I just said its odd for a suicidal person to attack the Warden once, join the Warden and then wait around 2 years before attacking the Warden again with his friend who conviently showed up. He managed to supress his sucidial urges for two years? Even though the Warden was being so "cruel and evil" to him? And both times he only was suicidal when he had an advantage over the Warden? Really? 

If he's so prideful that bargin could easily be seen as "pleading" though you're right he didn't beg. He proposed a deal which the Warden could deny. (And should deny truth be told).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Ryzaki]

I have to give Wynne something though...she doesn't let the Warden change her like nearly everyone else does.

[ejoslin]

Actually, when sending Zevran after Loghain, his reason for not taking on the contract is he cannot fulfill it -- if he were to try, he would be killed before he could kill Loghain. If his reason for turning down the contract was that he didn't want to die, he could just take the contract and disappear, never to be heard from again.

And Wynne is changed tremendously by her meeting with Aenerin. She's even willing to help Shale via bloodmagic.

Edit: Opening my toolset just to confirm the bit about sending Zevran after Loghain...

Ok, I'm a bit wrong, because he is saying he would die if he were to take it, which is why he won't.  But he IS regretful that he can't.  And it doesn't change the fact, if his true motive were not to die, you're giving him his chance to escape.  And he's too honest to take it (and yes, the toolset says this in a VO note: glum, but he's being an honest businessman-- in his bizarre way).

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, when sending Zevran after Loghain, his reason for not taking on the contract is he cannot fulfill it -- if he were to try, he would be killed before he could kill Loghain. If his reason for turning down the contract was that he didn't want to die, he could just take the contract and disappear, never to be heard from again.

And Wynne is changed tremendously by her meeting with Aenerin. She's even willing to help Shale via bloodmagic.

Actually he keeps using qualifiers which makes that convo a bit weirder "even if I could kill your loghain which I might, I would still be killed by the crows/on the run."

And when you relase him...why bother mentioning the fact that it's a death sentence? Why not either just go or attack the Warden again? 

She is? Huh... I don't use Shale. (Just leave her deactivated). So that's really surprising. I guess she doesn't hate teh evil bloodmagic so much then.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, when sending Zevran after Loghain, his reason for not taking on the contract is he cannot fulfill it -- if he were to try, he would be killed before he could kill Loghain. If his reason for turning down the contract was that he didn't want to die, he could just take the contract and disappear, never to be heard from again.

And Wynne is changed tremendously by her meeting with Aenerin. She's even willing to help Shale via bloodmagic.

Actually he keeps using qualifiers which makes that convo a bit weirder "even if I could kill your logain which I might, I would still be killed by the crows/on the run."

She is? Huh... I don't use Shale. (Just leave her deactivated). So that's really surprising. I guess she doesn't hate teh evil bloodmagic so much then.

Yeh, I checked the toolset and he does say that, but here is the VO note that goes with it.

Zevran: And even if I could avoid them, and I might be able to, and even if I could kill your Loghain, and I might, death would still await me. (disappointed, if there were ANY way he would...)
Zevran: So... no, I can't accept such a contract. It wouldn't be right, given the circumstances. (glum, but he's being an honest businessman-- in his bizarre way)

Keep in mind the VO notes are the way the voice is supposed to sound and not really a way of confirming things -- sometimes the way the voice sounds combined with facial animations and the words give an entirely different effect.

Anyway, yeh, if you do Wynne's and Shale's personal quests, they're off to Tevinter where the mages know more about that type of thing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Yeh, I checked the toolset and he does say that, but here is the VO note that goes with it.

Zevran: And even if I could avoid them, and I might be able to, and even if I could kill your Loghain, and I might, death would still await me. (disappointed, if there were ANY way he would...)
Zevran: So... no, I can't accept such a contract. It wouldn't be right, given the circumstances. (glum, but he's being an honest businessman-- in his bizarre way)

Keep in mind the VO notes are the way the voice is supposed to sound and not really a way of confirming things -- sometimes the way the voice sounds combined with facial animations and the words give an entirely different effect.

Anyway, yeh, if you do Wynne's and Shale's personal quests, they're off to Tevinter where the mages know more about that type of thing.

*wishes she knew how to use the blasted toolset* 

That is a bizaree way. Gah. There has to be a tutorial for seeing the VO notes with the toolset. Everytime I try to use it I never see the convo options.   

Wynne going to Tevinter. Wow. She really does change.

Does she stop being so preechy in that case? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:43 .

[ddv.rsa]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, when sending Zevran after Loghain, his reason for not taking on the contract is he cannot fulfill it -- if he were to try, he would be killed before he could kill Loghain. If his reason for turning down the contract was that he didn't want to die, he could just take the contract and disappear, never to be heard from again.

And Wynne is changed tremendously by her meeting with Aenerin. She's even willing to help Shale via bloodmagic.

You mean by taking her to Tevinter? I didn't know blood magic was involved...

But that makes sense. You'd probably need forbidden magic to undo being made into a golem. Still, who would have thought Wynne would use blood magic. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[ejoslin]

ddv.rsa wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, when sending Zevran after Loghain, his reason for not taking on the contract is he cannot fulfill it -- if he were to try, he would be killed before he could kill Loghain. If his reason for turning down the contract was that he didn't want to die, he could just take the contract and disappear, never to be heard from again.

And Wynne is changed tremendously by her meeting with Aenerin. She's even willing to help Shale via bloodmagic.

You mean by taking her to Tevinter? I didn't know blood magic was involved...

But that makes sense. You'd probably need forbidden magic to undo being made into a golem. Still, who would have thought Wynne would use blood magic. 

Blood magic would have to be involved, or else they wouldn't have to go to Tevinter really.