576 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

We may not agree with their opinion but we do appreciate their honesty. In all her advice, she always is respectful towards the Warden.

I disagree. Telling you that you're acting like a child for disagreeing with her, making it clear that she thinks her stories make her more of an expert on Wardens than the actual Warden, and more than just implying she thinks that you can't handle dating and saving the world at the same time is not, in any way, respectful.

[Dave of Canada]

ejoslin wrote...

Her anger is justified? To the point where she tries to kill "Ferelden's only hope"? That she hopes the darkspawn takes the warden? Really? That pretty much invalidates EVERY single piece of advice she has given.

Had she killed the warden, she would have doomed Ferelden -- and given all she had said beforehand, she knows it.

I facepalmed during this scene as well.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, and my favorite Wynne example... At the gauntlet with a city elf (my first playthrough).



A fast rundown of a female city elf (though I'm sure everyone knows the story). You are kidnapped on your wedding day, along with your wedding party, to be the plaything of the son of the Arl. You manage, with the help of your cousin Soris, to kill the guards who are guarding you as you are being saved for last. You get to your fiance just in time to see him killed. Instead of falling apart, though you COULD get out now, you keep on going, killing all the guards, until you get to your cousin. You're too late; she's already been raped. You (most likely) kill the men who raped her, and get the women out of there. When the guards come, you (may have) taken all the blame, and put yourself at the mercy of the guards. Had it not been for Duncan conscripting you, your fate would have been... horrible.



So you get to the guardian and he asks, "Did you fail Shianni?" My first reaction -- hell no. I did everything in my power to try to save her. Even so, the arl's son was her rapist. There was absolutely nothing that the city elf could do.



So I say, No, Vaughn was the villan. To which Wynne says, "It is sometimes difficult to see how our actions affect an outcome, but that does not mean our actions had no effect."



Ugh ugh ugh. I was curious, so I reloaded. This time I chose, "Yes, I could have run faster," (not really, but...). To which Wynne said, "Accept your failings, but do not let them govern your life."



I really did NOT like anything about Wynne, even at the start.

[PoisonTheCity]

I don't think I particularly hate her. In my first playthrough I think I appreciated that she was one of the only companions who check in on how you're feeling once in a while. Yes, she usually ends that with a lecture, but she has a few sweet lines. That 'take heart, dear friend, etc.' line comes to mind. Also, she actually thanks you for what you're doing, fighting the darkspawn and all.



That being said, in my most recent playthrough she started to grate my cheese. But that may have more to do with her being the only healer than anything else. And a Wynne/m!warden fanfic I read recently that... made me unable to look at her the same way.

[CalJones]

Doesn't she say that in response to every origin though? It certainly doesn't make her look good here, but it rather seems like dialogue corner cutting to me.

[ejoslin]

CalJones wrote...

Doesn't she say that in response to every origin though? It certainly doesn't make her look good here, but it rather seems like dialogue corner cutting to me.

Of course she does.  Which is kind of my point about her not giving good advice -- she says what she thinks will sound good, not what is actually reasonable.  It's very much the same as her giving a dwarf noble a lecture about power.  How the advice sounds depends on the origin, but there is nothing particularly wise about it.

Though, in truth, what she says is pretty unfair to all Origins as you really are a victim yourself, and have no choice about going with the gray wardens.  Yeh, you CAN be a jerk, but it is not a given for sure.  The advice there somehow implies you are to blame, which is not the case.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:07 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Her anger is justified? To the point where she tries to kill "Ferelden's only hope"?

Absolutely. If "Ferelden's only hope" is a selfish child, then Ferelden is lost anyway. Slit the brat's throat and end it right there.

I can sympathize with Wynne, she's not psychic and doesn't know that your Warden is protected by the power of plot and can't fail on his/her way to glory..

I like her. She's a very  realistic character.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[ejoslin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Her anger is justified? To the point where she tries to kill "Ferelden's only hope"? That she hopes the darkspawn takes the warden? Really? That pretty much invalidates EVERY single piece of advice she has given.

Had she killed the warden, she would have doomed Ferelden -- and given all she had said beforehand, she knows it.

I facepalmed during this scene as well.

Though the warden should not put anything personal before his/her duty, that advice does not apply to Wynne as well, who feels her personal feelings are far more important than defeating the blight.

Gah, Wynne hate IS fun

[Sarah1281]

Absolutely. If "Ferelden's only hope" is a selfish child, then Ferelden is lost anyway. Slit the brat's throat and end it right there.

Being a selfish child does not have to be the only reason for you to poison the ashes. You may not agree that really believing the cultists, wanting to recruit the cultists to your side, ect. is a good enough reason to destroy the ashes but there are other reasons besides just being a horrible person. And even if you are a selfish child, if you kill the Archdemon does it really matter? Is the need to make sure the (presumably dead) Hero of Ferelden was a good person really worth having the entire country overrun by darkspawn? I can't agree with that.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Her anger is justified? To the point where she tries to kill "Ferelden's only hope"?

Absolutely. If "Ferelden's only hope" is a selfish child, then Ferelden is lost anyway. Slit the brat's throat and end it right there.

I can sympathize with Wynne, she's not psychic and doesn't know that your Warden is protected by the power of plot.

I like her. She's avery  realistic character.

But then, her going with you, has been a detriment, to a HUGE degree.  Ferelden is NOT lost, the blight is NOT lost, just because Wynne does not like the warden.  It's not that she leaves.  It's not even so much that she hopes the darkspawn wins.  It's that she, if there, will try to kill the warden after the fact, which accomplishes NOTHING at all.

The first time I saw that, my party was Wynne at 100 Friendly, Leliana at 100 Love, and Alistair at 100 Hostile.  Wynne not only attacks my warden, but Alistair as well.  Over a relic that most people do not believe exists -- and that the people who do believe would just continue to believe has not been discovered.  Destroying the relic has NO effect at all on people's beliefs.  It doesn't hurt anyone, destroying it, except maybe Genetivi.  Destroying the Gray Wardens, on the other hand, yeh, that would be bad.

Edit: And I agree with what Sarah says.  There are many reasons to defile the ashes, being a selfish child is the least likely of them.  

But I do believe that Wynne, from much of her advice, really does believe that of the Warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh Alistair attacks you over the Urn? Didn't know that.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh Alistair attacks you over the Urn? Didn't know that.

No, Wynne attacks you and Alistair if he's there.  Alistair, even if he hates you, will fight with you.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Dave of Canada]

Hell, the cut dialogue makes me loathe Wynne even more. I'm glad it was cut.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh sorry, misread. Yes her reaction is not rational at all, but she isn't the only one guilty of it, unhardened Leliana does the same.

[Face of Evil]

My answer to the Guardian has always been "Yes, I should not have let Shianni be taken in the first place." Wynne's comment in that context makes perfect sense.

I will not fault Wynne for attacking the Warden after defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes, or for walking out afterwards. She has no way of knowing that only a Warden can slay an Archdemon. What she does know is that you have just defiled a holy artifact that would not have only cured hundreds but brought hope to thousands, and you did this horrible thing at the behest of an evil cult working to unleash a High Dragon upon Ferelden. You may not give a whit about the Chantry's beliefs, but you have effectively stomped all over the beliefs of others to assist a gang of murderous fanatics and gain a mediocre power boost.

I respect Wynne for doing what is right. Not what she believes is right, but what is right and good and just. I will not hate a woman who voluntarily gives up what may be her final months of life and the only real home she's ever known to assist me on a dangerous quest.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:17 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh sorry, misread. Yes her reaction is not rational at all, but she isn't the only one guilty of it, unhardened Leliana does the same.

Yep, which is why that fight I had at the guardian was so interesting.  Leliana was unhardened and at 100 love, Wynne was at 100 Friendly (so yes, personal quests WERE done), and Alistair was at 100 hostile, so it was Alistair and my rogue warden against Leliana, Wynne, and the guardian.  My poor warden was heartbroken

[Sarah1281]

My answer to the Guardian has always been "Yes, I should not have let Shianni be taken in the first place." Wynne's comment in that context makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't. How the hell could you have stopped Shianni from being taken? You had no weapon and get knocked out no matter what gender. How can an unconscious person stop anything from happening? Not to mention that you rescue her as fast as elvenly possible. Wynne might THINK that she's being appropriate but no matter what you say on the matter, she is WAY out of line agreeing that it's your fault Shianni got raped.

[ejoslin]

Face of Evil wrote...

My answer to the Guardian has always been "Yes, I should not have let Shianni be taken in the first place." Wynne's comment in that context makes perfect sense.

I will not fault Wynne for attacking the Warden after defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes, or for walking out afterwards. She has no way of knowing that only a Warden can slay an Archdemon. What she does know is that you have just defiled a holy artifact that would not have only cured hundreds but brought hope to thousands, and you did this horrible thing at the behest of an evil cult working to unleash a High Dragon upon Ferelden. You may not give a whit about the Chantry's beliefs, but you have effectively stomped all over the beliefs of others to assist a gang of murderous fanatics and gain a mediocre power boost.

I respect Wynne for doing what is right. Not what she believes is right, but what is right and good and just. I will not hate a woman who voluntarily gives up what may be her final months of life and the only real home she's ever known to assist me on a dangerous quest.

Hmmm, something to do with the warden being knocked unconscious after saying, "Take me, leave the others here." makes that response not too reasonable (I'm talking a female city elf here).

And Wynne harps on how it has to be a warden that kills the archdemon, whether she knows why or not.

Edit: Don't ALL the companions, ultimately, do what is good and just, however?  

Gah, Wynne actually thinks a city elf might kill her own father for power.  Of course, Wynne's objection is that it's blood magic, not that a whole lot of elves would die.  SO "good and just" is probably just a matter of opinion.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Face of Evil wrote...
I will not fault Wynne for attacking the Warden after defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes, or for walking out afterwards. She has no way of knowing that only a Warden can slay an Archdemon.

Oh so now she doesn't know, but she feels qualified to keep telling us on and on why we are needed and how best to remain true to the responsability that she thinks she understands?

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, and my favorite Wynne example... At the gauntlet with a city elf (my first playthrough).

Wait, WHY is Wynne interjecting at all during the convo with The Guardian? Presumptuous much? Sheesh.

[Sarah1281]

I respect Wynne for doing what is right. Not what she believes is right, but what is right and good and just. I will not hate a woman who voluntarily gives up what may be her final months of life and the only real home she's ever known to assist me on a dangerous quest.

Wynne is ALWAYS looking for excuses to leave the Tower. Irving says as much when she asks to leave. She also has to get out of there as she fears she's become an abomination since the spirit brought her back to life and the Templars will be extra wary of abominations from now on. She may really want to help (though she'll call you 'brave and good' two seconds after accusing you of being an evil blood mage) but she also wants and needs to get out of the Tower and you're her best chance.



And Wynne doesn't do what is universally right. She does what she believes is right and your beliefs happen to coincide with hers. That doesn't make her unequivocally doing good when she tries to kill you when SHE BELIEVES that the Wardens are the only ones who can stop a Blight.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, and my favorite Wynne example... At the gauntlet with a city elf (my first playthrough).

Wait, WHY is Wynne interjecting at all during the convo with The Guardian? Presumptuous much? Sheesh.

To be fair, everyone has something to say there.  

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, and my favorite Wynne example... At the gauntlet with a city elf (my first playthrough).

Wait, WHY is Wynne interjecting at all during the convo with The Guardian? Presumptuous much? Sheesh.

The other companions also interject -- it's just that Wynne does agree that the warden is to blame for things outside of his/her control.  Everyone else tells the guardian to leave it alone.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, and my favorite Wynne example... At the gauntlet with a city elf (my first playthrough).

Wait, WHY is Wynne interjecting at all during the convo with The Guardian? Presumptuous much? Sheesh.

To be fair, everyone has something to say there.  

I don't remember that. Maybe it's the context of what she says though.

[shadowpiranha]

To tell you the truth I probably got over Wynne's personality quickly because to me, she acted like many, many people aged over 60/70. "The youngsters know nothing, the youngsters don't know how to behave, the youngsters will be the death of us all and it's our job to tell them, from up here on our pedestal of longer age, how they should do things. Even if we don't really know much about their situation: We've lived longer, so we must know best, right?"



I have two grandparents living with me right now, and let me tell you, I'd rather take Wynne. At least she'd do some cool mage moves. But yeah, I started getting a little pissed at her when she came to my PC about Alistair and how she was going to hurt him and whatever else. I don't remember how, but I remember managing to make her apologize, or something of the sort. And that felt awesome.



I bring her with me because she is (as someone already stated) a saucy minx and a cool old lady, but I'm not for a second denying that she's preachy and self-righteous while it seems that the only reason for her to be so is that she's older than you.