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[Face of Evil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How the hell could you have stopped Shianni from being taken? You had no weapon and get knocked out no matter what gender. How can an unconscious person stop anything from happening?

My character blames himself for what happened to Shianni, regardless.

[ejoslin]

 Oh, she DOES apologize for the relationship "advice" after the romance partner falls in love.  And her apology for Zevran IS I think the nicest (only a couple of lines are different, but yeh, it's nice).  But she does owe the warden an apology for it. 

@Face of Evil I don't get that, tbh.  You and Wynne can blame your warden for allowing Shianni to be raped, I suppose, but it honestly is the fault of Vaughn, unless you give Shianni to him (in which case, yeh, blame yourself all day).

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:42 .

[Sarah1281]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

How the hell could you have stopped Shianni from being taken? You had no weapon and get knocked out no matter what gender. How can an unconscious person stop anything from happening?

My character blames himself for what happened to Shianni, regardless.

Even if you, say, had gotten lost in the estate and so you could reasonably argue that if you hadn't taken a wrong turn you might have gotten there in time to save her (which didn't happen) then Wynne still has no business agreeing that it's all your fault.

[Face of Evil]

ejoslin wrote...



Gah, Wynne actually thinks a city elf might kill her own father for power.  Of course, Wynne's objection is that it's blood magic, not that a whole lot of elves would die.  SO "good and just" is probably just a matter of opinion.

You're ignoring the fact that Wynne also disapproves of the elves being taken as slaves. So yes, she does care about the lives of the elves. Sacrificing them in a blood magic ritual is particularly abhorrent, however.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:44 .

[ejoslin]

She disapproves of the elves being taken as slaves? Let me double check that. I'll see if she has any approval attached at all if you let the slavers go free...

Edit: No, I'm not seeing any approval for Wynne except at that moment when you tell her to keep her opinions to herself (which does NOT commit you to using blood mage, btw -- she just hates being told to shut up and even if you don't do the ritual and kill them, she disapproves for -18).  I'll keep looking, though.

Ok, I found one other instance in that conversation where she disapproves.  Ok, so you're right, if you don't give the money but give them the elves, she disapproves.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Sarah1281]

You're ignoring the fact that Wynne also disapproves of the elves being taken as slaves. So yes, she does care about the lives of the elves. Sacrificing them in a blood magic ritual is particularly abhorrent, however.

Because it's EVIL BLOOD MAGIC, not because the elves are dying. Or so her protest about the evils of blood magic that don't even mention the elves would have you believe. And while it is most definitely a matter of opinion, I think just killing them and getting it over with is less horrific than dragging them off to be slaves in the Tevinter where they might also be used in a blood magic ritual.

[Ryzaki]

I dislike her but I've never found her to be particularly more preachy and annoying than most of the cast.

That said I have the same problem I have with Morrigan you can't call her out on most of her ****. The most you can do is cross your arms like a petulant child instead of trying to give a reasonable viewpoint that's different. But that's the problem with the dialogue options and not the character itself. I like Wynne well enough.

Edit: She disapproves if you slaughter the elf village too. I believe she is against wanton killing of innocents as much as bloodmagic. 

That said her bringing up bloodmagic after the mage PC just saved her was pretty douchebaggery. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Face of Evil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Because it's EVIL BLOOD MAGIC, not because the elves are dying. Or so her protest about the evils of blood magic that don't even mention the elves would have you believe. And while it is most definitely a matter of opinion, I think just killing them and getting it over with is less horrific than dragging them off to be slaves in the Tevinter where they might also be used in a blood magic ritual.

So we're calling Wynne a hypocrite because she said "He is talking about blood magic" instead of "He is talking about sacrificing elves with blood magic". The absence of three words in a comment made in the heat of the moment is enough to condemn her, is that it? We can't make the connection that she is also objecting to the sacrifice of the elves in addition to the use of blood magic?

[ejoslin]

Well, her saying anything at all there can make a very tense situation even worse. But again, if you're a city elf, your FATHER is there.

Her disapproval for letting the elves be taken is medium (so, probably at that point of the game -3 or -4). Her disapproval for telling her to shut up is extreme, so, for her, -18.

Sten approves. You can get a medium disapproval from Zevran IF you pass a persuade check; otherwise, it's a very high disapproval, and there are a few of them stacked for him.  Then again, Zevran always seems to disapprove more than Wynne about wholesale slaughter. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Face of Evil]

ejoslin wrote...

Then again, Zevran always seems to disapprove more than Wynne about wholesale slaughter. 

Zevran objects to the slaughter of the Dalish and the slavery/murder of the City Elves. All elves like him. He's pretty OK with slaughtering the Mages, leaving the people of Redcliffe to fend for themselves or condemning dwarves to be made into golems or partnering up with Sophia Dryden in Warden's Keep.

Wynne objects to all these things. Don't give me any nonsense about comparing Zevran's moral compass to Wynne's.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:16 .

[ejoslin]

Face of Evil wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Then again, Zevran always seems to disapprove more than Wynne about wholesale slaughter. 

Zevran objects to the slaughter of the Dalish and the slavery/murder of the City Elves. All elves like him. He's pretty OK with slaughtering the Mages, leaving the people of Redcliffe to fend for themselves or condemning dwarves to be made into golems or partnering up with Sophia Dryden in Warden's Keep.

Wynne objects to all these things. Don't give me any nonsense about comparing Zevran's moral compass to Wynne's.

Mages too.  Don't forget them.  He objects to them being killed as well and will speak up for them.

So why not compare?  He objects MORE than Wynne to the murder of the elves and the Dalish for sure.  He also objects to just wiping out the werewolves.  And if you talked to him, you'd probably realize it's not an elf thing.  It's an objection to killing innocents for no rational reason.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Sarah1281]

So we're calling Wynne a hypocrite because she said "He is talking about blood magic" instead of "He is talking about sacrificing elves with blood magic". The absence of three words in a comment made in the heat of the moment is enough to condemn her, is that it? We can't make the connection that she is also objecting to the sacrifice of the elves in addition to the use of blood magic?

...Where did the word 'hypocrite' come up with regards to Wynne in this particular situation? I never said that, I don't recall anyone else here saying that. I think that objecting on the basis of EVIL BLOOD MAGIC instead of caring about the elves to be not particular moral, just Chantry dogma. If your father is there, she should say something about him and not expecting you to care that the Chantry condemns blood magic.



And Zevran does, actually, strongly object if you want to kill the mages. Sure he doesn't object to leaving Redcliffe but who in your party does? And he's in favor of having volunteers turned into golems which is not a universally evil thing. You may not like it but it's not as clearly evil as the other examples. And Wynne's objection to that, while I don't remember it, likely stems from the fact that it's a demon and the Chantry can't abide by that rather than saying anything about Sophia hurting or killing innocents.



Talk about right thing, wrong reason.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, Zevran does object to slaughtering the mages. In fact, my signature quote comes from there. As for the others... you're not killing anyone at Redcliffe, the golems would help a lot against darkspawn, and aiding the Sophia demon only means killing one person (Avernus).

He also objects to just wiping out the werewolves.

This, however, is not the case. I did this in my current playthrough and he was totally fine (Wynne wasn't, but I Persuaded her approval to stay intact).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Ryzaki]

The fact that Zev is okay with people being made into golems against their will is a reason I never use him as a moral compass. Or maybe it's just because they were dwarves...

And turning people into golems isn't universally evil the same way sacrificing them for power isn't. 

Both can be seen as necessary in a way. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[ejoslin]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Zevran does object to slaughtering the mages. In fact, my signature quote comes from there. As for the others... you're not killing anyone at Redcliffe, the golems would help a lot against darkspawn, and aiding the Sophia demon only means killing one person (Avernus).

He also objects to just wiping out the werewolves.

This, however, is not the case. I did this in my current playthrough and he was totally fine (Wynne wasn't, but I Persuaded her approval to stay intact).

He does disapprove.  NOT when you come back, but if you attack them before talking to Zanthrian.  

Edit: Golems are not so clear cut as people would like to believe.  It depends if you look at the individuals (in which case keeping it is horrible) or if you look at Orzammar as a whole, and the ongoing war they have with the darkspawn, the fact the the dwarven race is dying out because of this war, and the incredible power of the golems (golems are the best chance of saving Orzammar and the dwarven race and defeating the darkspawn, oddly enough).

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Face of Evil]

Ah. I made a mistake including the mages. I'll admit that one.

[Ryzaki]

That said my favorite thing about DA is the flaws in all the characters. ...Why is it everytime someone wants to debate character X someone drags character Y into it?

[ejoslin]

Because it's fun! And because Zevran and Wynne are probably your two most outspoken characters. And because Wynne is crappy when it comes to him, and he handles her quite well. And did I mention it was fun?

[Xilizhra]

He does disapprove. NOT when you come back, but if you attack them before talking to Zanthrian.

Ah. I was undecided up until that point, so I did bring Zathrian back to talk... but ultimately decided that getting his help was more in-character than the alternative.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Because it's fun! And because Zevran and Wynne are probably your two most outspoken characters. And because Wynne is crappy when it comes to him, and he handles her quite well. And did I mention it was fun?

I would've frankly seen it more fun to debate the character on their on merits. Wynne is better than Zev in some ways and Zev is better than Wynne in some ways. Tis personal preference. 

I'd go with Wynne though. She may nag my ears off but I can ignore her without getting stabbed in the back. 

[ejoslin]

Xilizhra wrote...

He does disapprove. NOT when you come back, but if you attack them before talking to Zanthrian.

Ah. I was undecided up until that point, so I did bring Zathrian back to talk... but ultimately decided that getting his help was more in-character than the alternative.

Zevran disapproves of unnecessary slaughter, not necessary killing -- and if you bring back Zanthrian, it's necessary.  And there are some murders he approves of as well (Lloyd for instance).

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Because it's fun! And because Zevran and Wynne are probably your two most outspoken characters. And because Wynne is crappy when it comes to him, and he handles her quite well. And did I mention it was fun?

I would've frankly seen it more fun to debate the character on their on merits. Wynne is better than Zev in some ways and Zev is better than Wynne in some ways. Tis personal preference. 

I'd go with Wynne though. She may nag my ears off but I can ignore her without getting stabbed in the back. 

Ok, Wynne will try to kill you after you accept her into the party in a particular circumstance, Zevran will try to kill you after you accept him into your party in a particular circumstance.

Wynne, you can be at 100 Friendly, doesn't matter.  If you trigger that confrontation, she will try to kill you.
Zevran, if you are above 26+, he will not betray you.  No matter what.  If he's romanced and between 26 - 70, he may not fight against his old lover/mentor, but that's understandable.  He also does not side with him.  Then again, he may still fight even between those approvals, and at warm/adore, there's no question -- he fights with the warden.

At the first meeting with both of them, they may try to kill you.  The difference is it can happen twice (or three times if you have the bloodmage mod installed), Wynne stays dead.

Edit: Zevran actually got brought into it because after I pointed out how bad her romance advice was when it came to him, someone basically said Wynne was right to say it about a scumbag

But it's also fun looking at the moral compasses of the chantry/mage tool who was called "right and just" and the assassin, who may actually have more compassion for the helpless.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:34 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact that Zev is okay with people being made into golems against their will is a reason I never use him as a moral compass. Or maybe it's just because they were dwarves...

And turning people into golems isn't universally evil the same way sacrificing them for power isn't. 

Both can be seen as necessary in a way. 

He never says he's fine with forcing people to become golems. And if you'll notice, in both epilogues w/ the Anvil it tells you that volunteers are used. After that source dries up people might be forced but I don't see what's so immoral about people choosing to become golems.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The fact that Zev is okay with people being made into golems against their will is a reason I never use him as a moral compass. Or maybe it's just because they were dwarves...

And turning people into golems isn't universally evil the same way sacrificing them for power isn't. 

Both can be seen as necessary in a way. 

He never says he's fine with forcing people to become golems. And if you'll notice, in both epilogues w/ the Anvil it tells you that volunteers are used. After that source dries up people might be forced but I don't see what's so immoral about people choosing to become golems.

Zev is more than intelligent to know that the Dwarves are going to go down the same road again. 

...Oh? That epilogue where Harrowmount was turned into a golem and Harrowmount was suspected of using people from the surface? Those epilogues? 

[Xilizhra]

I always found it odd that Leliana, if hardened, can be intimidated into staying in your party, while Wynne can't. Even hardened, Leliana seems to be quite a devout believer, moreso than Wynne... why is she more flexible?