Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:39 .
ejoslin wrote...
Ok, Wynne will try to kill you after you accept her into the party in a particular circumstance, Zevran will try to kill you after you accept him into your party in a particular circumstance.
Wynne, you can be at 100 Friendly, doesn't matter. If you trigger that confrontation, she will try to kill you.
Zevran, if you are above 26+, he will not betray you. No matter what. If he's romanced and between 26 - 70, he may not fight against his old lover/mentor, but that's understandable. He also does not side with him. Then again, he may still fight even between those approvals, and at warm/adore, there's no question -- he fights with the warden.
At the first meeting with both of them, they may try to kill you. The difference is it can happen twice (or three times if you have the bloodmage mod installed), Wynne stays dead.
Edit: Zevran actually got brought into it because after I pointed out how bad her romance advice was when it came to him, someone basically said Wynne was right to say it about a scumbag
But it's also fun looking at the moral compasses of the chantry/mage tool who was called "right and just" and the assassin, who may actually have more compassion for the helpless.
Yeah, Harrowmont is never turned into a golem. At all. And just because there is the potential to misuse things does not mean that they should never be used. "Oh, let's never let anyone become GWs because powerful people might force their political enemies or those that speak out against them to become a Warden!" Seriously, he advocates turning volunteers into golems. That it can be misued is really not his fault.Zev is more than intelligent to know that the Dwarves are going to go down the same road again.
...Oh? That epilogue where Harrowmount was turned into a golem and Harrowmount was suspected of using people from the surface? Those epilogues?
ejoslin wrote...
Harrowmont was never turned into a golem. I"m not sure where you get THAT from. Harrowmont is a weak king for sure, however.
And yeh, Zevran DOES make a comment about how in 100 years, there will only be surface dwarves left. He does see the situation. Dwarven population is declining. They're losing the war with the Darkspawn over the deep roads. Golems could turn the tide.
This information is all in the game.
Sarah1281 wrote...
Yeah, Harrowmont is never turned into a golem. At all. And just because there is the potential to misuse things does not mean that they should never be used. "Oh, let's never let anyone become GWs because powerful people might force their political enemies or those that speak out against them to become a Warden!" Seriously, he advocates turning volunteers into golems. That it can be misued is really not his fault.Zev is more than intelligent to know that the Dwarves are going to go down the same road again.
...Oh? That epilogue where Harrowmount was turned into a golem and Harrowmount was suspected of using people from the surface? Those epilogues?
He joins you to protect himself against the Crows. If your approval isn't high enough then Taliesin offers him the chance to return and he's not convinced you give a damn about him and would go out of your way to protect him. Easy choice. His goal is survival. He's not really personally invested in ending the Blight and he'd go back to Antiva anyway.I have no problems with her attacking over the urn. Given her character it makes sense she sees you as betraying hope itself. Zevran on the other hand has no reason to kill you at that point. You've not made enemies of him, or friends. You're allies.
It is not self-defense. She doesn't want someone who is in favor of the rite of annulment (which, BTW, killing you won't stop since it's arriving from Denerim) to kill the abominations because...Wynne thinks that's a good idea apparently. Annulment would be horrible but you're not the one making that choice, killing you won't change it, and she doesn't say anything about it at the end if Irving is dead or you convince Greagoir to listen to Cullen.Wynne was attacking you in self defense at the first meeting. Zevran...not so much.
ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, you think Zevran actually had some choice there? Interesting. I was under the impression that he was a slave, and if he wasn't doing his duty, he would be subjected to a fate most likely worse than death.
And of course both have their flaws. I never said anything different. And you're not the one who said that Wynne was always right and just.
Wynne's principles are a bit inconsistent, however. She does put her personal agenda before defeating the blight -- which is something she says the warden should NEVER do.
shadowpiranha wrote...
To tell you the truth I probably got over Wynne's personality quickly because to me, she acted like many, many people aged over 60/70. "The youngsters know nothing, the youngsters don't know how to behave, the youngsters will be the death of us all and it's our job to tell them, from up here on our pedestal of longer age, how they should do things. Even if we don't really know much about their situation: We've lived longer, so we must know best, right?"
I have two grandparents living with me right now, and let me tell you, I'd rather take Wynne. At least she'd do some cool mage moves. But yeah, I started getting a little pissed at her when she came to my PC about Alistair and how she was going to hurt him and whatever else. I don't remember how, but I remember managing to make her apologize, or something of the sort. And that felt awesome.
No. I am comparing the possibility for misuse of the Joining (and we know that Arland, at least, used it) to the possibility for misuse of the Anvil. They can both be misused but they're both so valuable against the darkspawn that they both risk it.You're right. I was mistaken.
...Uh. You're comparing grey wardens to an anvil that changes living beings into immortal weapons?
Ryzaki wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Harrowmont was never turned into a golem. I"m not sure where you get THAT from. Harrowmont is a weak king for sure, however.
And yeh, Zevran DOES make a comment about how in 100 years, there will only be surface dwarves left. He does see the situation. Dwarven population is declining. They're losing the war with the Darkspawn over the deep roads. Golems could turn the tide.
This information is all in the game.
Edit: Nope it as Branka. The result though is that the surface ends up being threatened.
Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .
How is him being able to identify best with those who don't have a choice (and the Dalish don't fall into that category) and not wanting to kill them being hypocritical?That's what I meant by the same position. Those he felt sorry for often had no other choice either.
True. But that's just her being as hypocritical as the rest of the cast. It's nothing overly new in game.
Sarah1281 wrote...
He joins you to protect himself against the Crows. If your approval isn't high enough then Taliesin offers him the chance to return and he's not convinced you give a damn about him and would go out of your way to protect him. Easy choice. His goal is survival. He's not really personally invested in ending the Blight and he'd go back to Antiva anyway.I have no problems with her attacking over the urn. Given her character it makes sense she sees you as betraying hope itself. Zevran on the other hand has no reason to kill you at that point. You've not made enemies of him, or friends. You're allies.
It is not self-defense. She doesn't want someone who is in favor of the rite of annulment (which, BTW, killing you won't stop since it's arriving from Denerim) to kill the abominations because...Wynne thinks that's a good idea apparently. Annulment would be horrible but you're not the one making that choice, killing you won't change it, and she doesn't say anything about it at the end if Irving is dead or you convince Greagoir to listen to Cullen.
Sarah1281 wrote...
No. I am comparing the possibility for misuse of the Joining (and we know that Arland, at least, used it) to the possibility for misuse of the Anvil. They can both be misused but they're both so valuable against the darkspawn that they both risk it.You're right. I was mistaken.
...Uh. You're comparing grey wardens to an anvil that changes living beings into immortal weapons?
Sarah1281 wrote...
How is him being able to identify best with those who don't have a choice (and the Dalish don't fall into that category) and not wanting to kill them being hypocritical?That's what I meant by the same position. Those he felt sorry for often had no other choice either.
True. But that's just her being as hypocritical as the rest of the cast. It's nothing overly new in game.
Ryzaki wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, you think Zevran actually had some choice there? Interesting. I was under the impression that he was a slave, and if he wasn't doing his duty, he would be subjected to a fate most likely worse than death.
And of course both have their flaws. I never said anything different. And you're not the one who said that Wynne was always right and just.
Wynne's principles are a bit inconsistent, however. She does put her personal agenda before defeating the blight -- which is something she says the warden should NEVER do.
That's what I meant by the same position. Those he felt sorry for often had no other choice either.
True. But that's just her being as hypocritical as the rest of the cast. It's nothing overly new in game.
Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:54 .
ejoslin wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Harrowmont was never turned into a golem. I"m not sure where you get THAT from. Harrowmont is a weak king for sure, however.
And yeh, Zevran DOES make a comment about how in 100 years, there will only be surface dwarves left. He does see the situation. Dwarven population is declining. They're losing the war with the Darkspawn over the deep roads. Golems could turn the tide.
This information is all in the game.
Edit: Nope it as Branka. The result though is that the surface ends up being threatened.
Golem slide with Bhelen as ruler:
At first, King Bhelen worked eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems could push the darkspawn back. This arrangement was not to last, however.
Before long, Branka began to refuse to create golems only for the king, who soon banned use of the Anvil. His men attacked Branka's fortress in the Deep Roads, forcing her to shut it tight.
Years into the siege, Bhelen was forced to relent. The fortress, guarded by Branka's golems, remained impenetrable.
Harrowmont is NOT made into a golem. Now, if you make Harrowmont king, it IS bad. But no ruler is made into a golem.
Edit: Though they weren't all volunteers either. But again, if you can save Orzammar, so much more is saved than if you let Orzammar die.
ejoslin wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, you think Zevran actually had some choice there? Interesting. I was under the impression that he was a slave, and if he wasn't doing his duty, he would be subjected to a fate most likely worse than death.
And of course both have their flaws. I never said anything different. And you're not the one who said that Wynne was always right and just.
Wynne's principles are a bit inconsistent, however. She does put her personal agenda before defeating the blight -- which is something she says the warden should NEVER do.
That's what I meant by the same position. Those he felt sorry for often had no other choice either.
True. But that's just her being as hypocritical as the rest of the cast. It's nothing overly new in game.
The only reason why it's more obnoxious is she puts herself in the position of the warden's advisor, wanted or not.
And I'm not arguing over WHY Zevran is against killing innocents, just pointing out that he seems to disapprove of it more than Wynne. And it's interesting given his upbringing.
Edit: And truthfully, the only position Zevran had been in was as a slave -- that's not what is going on with the mages or the Dalish. He objects to the killing of innocents for no reason.
I was more talking about you getting offended that he's not invested in your 'common goal' of ending the Blight. His goal is not ending the Blight. His goal is to not be killed by the Crows. And he's suicidal unless you convince him that there's something to live for anyway.Now. Let's be honest. Who has the better chance? The warden who stormed the deeproads with three people at his/her back or a group of Assassins that aren't even clever enough to try a sneak attack? For someone who's goal is survival he's certainly not going about it too well.
Because the rite isn't there! You are not annulling the circle. You are not killing any mages (except stupid ones like Wynne that attack). Greagoir is not authorized to kill any mage as of yet. You are simply taking care of the abominations. Tell me, if you tell Wynne you agree with Greagoir then - aside from Wynne's group who attacks first - which mages do you kill that you don't kill if you side with Wynne? Wynne killing you does not save any mages. It is not self-defense as you are not there to kill them. That's more like saying that you can't kill the guy who agrees that people in a quarentine need to be killed to stop the spread of disease even though he isn't going to be killing any of them....The rite of annulment is when they go in there and "clear out" the mages.
And she's trying to protect the ones with her. How can you not see that as self-defense?
That's like saying you can't kill the guy with the knife because a dude with a machine gun is coming.
Did you see the part where I said I wasn't comparing being a Grey Warden to being a golem but rather the potential for misuse of the creation of Grey Wardens and the creation of golems? Both can be misused but it's a risk that people judge are worth it. It really doesn't matter which one sucks worse.Ryzaki wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
No. I am comparing the possibility for misuse of the Joining (and we know that Arland, at least, used it) to the possibility for misuse of the Anvil. They can both be misused but they're both so valuable against the darkspawn that they both risk it.You're right. I was mistaken.
...Uh. You're comparing grey wardens to an anvil that changes living beings into immortal weapons?
The joining results in someone who can sense darkspawn and kill an archedemon. That is all. It can also result in death for whoever does it.
The anvil results in a immortal weapon that packs a hell of a punch.
...How are they remotely comparable?
Ryzaki wrote...
I had corrected myself already.
Edit: The whole not volunteers was my point. At worst you end up with crazy Branka raiding the surface, at best you end up with her holed in the deep roads with a bunch of golems. ...we still can no longer use the anvil. So what pray tell usefulness did it have other than giving us a trickle of soldiers in the final battle?
Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:58 .
Sooner or later she will die and the Anvil could be recovered again, hopefully by someone stabler.Edit: The whole not volunteers was my point. At worst you end up with crazy Branka raiding the surface, at best you end up with her holed in the deep roads with a bunch of golems. ...we still can no longer use the anvil. So what pray tell usefulness did it have other than giving us a trickle of soldiers in the final battle?
Sarah1281 wrote...
Did you see the part where I said I wasn't comparing being a Grey Warden to being a golem but rather the potential for misuse of the creation of Grey Wardens and the creation of golems? Both can be misused but it's a risk that people judge are worth it. It really doesn't matter which one sucks worse.Ryzaki wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
No. I am comparing the possibility for misuse of the Joining (and we know that Arland, at least, used it) to the possibility for misuse of the Anvil. They can both be misused but they're both so valuable against the darkspawn that they both risk it.You're right. I was mistaken.
...Uh. You're comparing grey wardens to an anvil that changes living beings into immortal weapons?
The joining results in someone who can sense darkspawn and kill an archedemon. That is all. It can also result in death for whoever does it.
The anvil results in a immortal weapon that packs a hell of a punch.
...How are they remotely comparable?
Sarah1281 wrote...
Sooner or later she will die and the Anvil could be recovered again, hopefully by someone stabler.Edit: The whole not volunteers was my point. At worst you end up with crazy Branka raiding the surface, at best you end up with her holed in the deep roads with a bunch of golems. ...we still can no longer use the anvil. So what pray tell usefulness did it have other than giving us a trickle of soldiers in the final battle?
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