576 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

I was more talking about you getting offended that he's not invested in your 'common goal' of ending the Blight. His goal is not ending the Blight. His goal is to not be killed by the Crows. And he's suicidal unless you convince him that there's something to live for anyway.


...So is he suicidal or does he want to survive? Which one is it?  

Because the rite isn't there! You are not annulling the circle. You are not killing any mages (except stupid ones like Wynne that attack). Greagoir is not authorized to kill any mage as of yet. You are simply taking care of the abominations. Tell me, if you tell Wynne you agree with Greagoir then - aside from Wynne's group who attacks first - which mages do you kill that you don't kill if you side with Wynne? Wynne killing you does not save any mages. It is not self-defense as you are not there to kill them. That's more like saying that you can't kill the guy who agrees that people in a quarentine need to be killed to stop the spread of disease even though he isn't going to be killing any of them.

But the character says "Oh. I'm going to clean out this circle". There are far more things you can find hypocritical about Wynne than that. You tell her about the annulment and tell her you're going to kill them. What else can she do but defend herself? You rather she just kneel and let you kill her? 

...Also what does the rite have to do with you: telling you you're clearing out the circle regardless. 

Also: Sure it's not going to stop the Annulement never said it did. But if you can't see how stopping the Warden from kill her is self defense... 

Then again, if after you save the circle and stuff (and provided Wynne doesn't turn you in for being a blood mage afterwards) you tell Gregoir if you let one bloodmage go, he'll be sorry, all the remaining mages are imprisoned.  Well, aside from Wynne, who goes with you instead.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


I had corrected myself already. 

Edit: The whole not volunteers was my point. At worst you end up with crazy Branka raiding the surface, at best you end up with her holed in the deep roads with a bunch of golems. ...we still can no longer use the anvil. So what pray tell usefulness did it have other than giving us a trickle of soldiers in the final battle? 

That is metagaming, though.  

Here is what you can find out in Orzammar and in the deep roads:

Orzammar's population is declining.  Between low birth rates and the war with the darkspawn, they're in real trouble.  Whether you get the party bark from Zevran or no, you can learn this.
Golem = 12 Dwarves (I believe).  
There are plenty of people who would volunteer to become a golem.

SO!  Say you have 100 volunteers to become golems -- that's equal to an army of 1200.  THIS can really help turn the tide.  The golems can actually prevent Orzammar from dying, going from the information you actually have.

...So let's not metagame. Let's give the anvil to someone who is obvioulsy insane. That'll work. The whole anvil is useless unless someone is using it properly. If I'm not metagaming the only thing I see is Branka feeding her...what do they call them? Clans or something? To the darkspawn for this anvil. I meet Cardin who tells me how it's been abused and how he regrets creating it. So...instead of listening to its original creator I'm going ot listen to a screaming madwoman? And even if I wanted to keep the anvil I wouldn't because...she's mad. 

[Sarah1281]

...So is he suicidal or does he want to survive? Which one is it?

He wants to not be killed by the Crows. If he kills his one chance of going back tot he Crows and you don't give a damn about him so wouldn't spend much effort protecting him and might make him leave, that's probably going to happen.

But the character says "Oh. I'm going to clean out this circle". There are far more things you can find hypocritical about Wynne than that. You tell her about the annulment and tell her you're going to kill them. What else can she do but defend herself? You rather she just kneel and let you kill her?



...Also what does the rite have to do with you: telling you you're clearing out the circle regardless.



Also: Sure it's not going to stop the Annulement never said it did. But if you can't see how stopping the Warden from kill her is self defense...

You clear out the Circle of ABOMINATIONS. You don't know if any mages can be saved and your job is to just go kill Uldred and his followers. You aren't attacking Wynne, you're leaving her alone to wait for the Annulment. Not self-defense. It's trying to kill the messenger. And I don't think this is hypocritical. I just don't think it's in self-defense. Not everything I don't like about Wynne comes back to hypocrisy, you know.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



I was more talking about you getting offended that he's not invested in your 'common goal' of ending the Blight. His goal is not ending the Blight. His goal is to not be killed by the Crows. And he's suicidal unless you convince him that there's something to live for anyway.





...So is he suicidal or does he want to survive? Which one is it?



Because the rite isn't there! You are not annulling the circle. You are not killing any mages (except stupid ones like Wynne that attack). Greagoir is not authorized to kill any mage as of yet. You are simply taking care of the abominations. Tell me, if you tell Wynne you agree with Greagoir then - aside from Wynne's group who attacks first - which mages do you kill that you don't kill if you side with Wynne? Wynne killing you does not save any mages. It is not self-defense as you are not there to kill them. That's more like saying that you can't kill the guy who agrees that people in a quarentine need to be killed to stop the spread of disease even though he isn't going to be killing any of them.





But the character says "Oh. I'm going to clean out this circle". There are far more things you can find hypocritical about Wynne than that. You tell her about the annulment and tell her you're going to kill them. What else can she do but defend herself? You rather she just kneel and let you kill her?



...Also what does the rite have to do with you: telling you you're clearing out the circle regardless.



Also: Sure it's not going to stop the Annulement never said it did. But if you can't see how stopping the Warden from kill her is self defense...

Then again, if after you save the circle and stuff (and provided Wynne doesn't turn you in for being a blood mage afterwards) you tell Gregoir if you let one bloodmage go, he'll be sorry, all the remaining mages are imprisoned. Well, aside from Wynne, who goes with you instead.

Right because imprisonment = mass slaughter.

[ejoslin]

Notice Wynne does not object, nor does SHE get imprisoned. IF she comes with you.

And again, with the Golems, they can SAVE Orzammar.  It really is not a black and white decision.  Branka being insane, yeh, I have problems with that.  But I do get the positives to saving the anvil.  They DO exist.

Edit: Zevran is suicidal when he goes after you -- it is a deliberate act, trying to die.

As far as his betraying you?  Who says he thinks he'll win?  My guess (and it makes sense) is this time he knows he'll die.  He certainly knows the warden will win against Taliesen if his approval is high enough where he does not fight with Taliesen.  He tells Taliesen, "You're going to lose," if he leaves the fight. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Reaverwind]

Ryzaki wrote...

Also: Sure it's not going to stop the Annulement never said it did. But if you can't see how stopping the Warden from kill her is self defense... 

Certainly it'd be self-defense - were the Warden to attack first. However, it'd behoove Wynne to at least try to talk the Warden out of carrying out the Annulment - instead of jumping the gun when a certain apostate enters the discussion.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

...So is he suicidal or does he want to survive? Which one is it?
 

He wants to not be killed by the Crows. If he kills his one chance of going back tot he Crows and you don't give a damn about him so wouldn't spend much effort protecting him and might make him leave, that's probably going to happen.

So...does he want to die or live? Will you answer?  

You clear out the Circle of ABOMINATIONS. You don't know if any mages can be saved and your job is to just go kill Uldred and his followers. You aren't attacking Wynne, you're leaving her alone to wait for the Annulment. Not self-defense. It's trying to kill the messenger. And I don't think this is hypocritical. I just don't think it's in self-defense. Not everything I don't like about Wynne comes back to hypocrisy, you know.

Annulment: 

Templars also have access to the Right of Annulment. The Right of Annulment gives the Templars the right to "pacify" or kill all mages in the tower. This would be used in the event that total chaos was unleashed by the mages and there is no chance that they could be saved. The Warden has the option of using the Right of Annulment in the Broken Circle quest line.

Source: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Right_of_Annulment#The_Order_of_Templars

You go in there and say that you're going to do the annullment early. You say nothing about abominations if she attacks you. (If you do she insists on going with you. That's annoying but not her attacking you) 

[Ryzaki]

Reaverwind wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Also: Sure it's not going to stop the Annulement never said it did. But if you can't see how stopping the Warden from kill her is self defense... 

Certainly it'd be self-defense - were the Warden to attack first. However, it'd behoove Wynne to at least try to talk the Warden out of carrying out the Annulment - instead of jumping the gun when a certain apostate enters the discussion.

You're threatening to kill her. (Besides I don't think the game engine let's you attack people first if they're not hostile) so I assume the character takes out their weapon before Wynne decides to attack. 

So you don't think its self defense if the guy with a big gun says he's going to kill you and you shoot first? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:09 .

[Sarah1281]

...So let's not metagame. Let's give the anvil to someone who is obvioulsy insane. That'll work. The whole anvil is useless unless someone is using it properly. If I'm not metagaming the only thing I see is Branka feeding her...what do they call them? Clans or something? To the darkspawn for this anvil. I meet Cardin who tells me how it's been abused and how he regrets creating it. So...instead of listening to its original creator I'm going ot listen to a screaming madwoman? And even if I wanted to keep the anvil I wouldn't because...she's mad.

Her being unbalanced doesn't mean she's not a genius smith. Her being unbalanced doesn't mean she can't figure out how to work it. You don't have to be 'pure of heart' or even sane to operate the Anvil. Non-meta-gaming there is no reason to assume that she can't work it.

How are you going to misuse the Wardens? Please tell me how they're comparable to siege weapons that are nearly unkillable.

I am not talking about misusing Wardens OR Anvils. Stop arguing against what I'm not saying. ALL I said is that the Anvil can be misused, yes, and by forcing people who oppose you or your rivals to undertake the Joining that is also a misuse of the Joining. You can misuse the Anvil and the Joining. If you are insistent on talking about how being a golem is worse than being a Warden and how golems can be used to do ill while Wardens can't be directly opposed, please just drop the subject.

...Like how it was recovered by the Warden?



That sooner or later could be a long time. And all that time you'd have all of those golems there. What's the guarantee Branka won't decide to charge to the surface with them and start a war? The woman is insane.

What guarentee? There isn't really a path to the surface outside of Orzammar big enough to get golems through. And surely the thought of having golems again in, say, a century is better than destroying the potential for them forever since every other idiot who decides to recreate the Anvil uses fade spirits which backfires and kills all of them.

[ejoslin]

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.  

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

Second edit: In an edit above, I stated my theory on why he sides with Taliesen if he doesn't like the warden -- I think he's completing his suicide.

He does have to trust a warden to admit to the suicide attempt, which many won't see.  You have to be at 76+ friendly or 71+ adore.

But as far as Wynne goes?  She says what she's been taught -- passes on advice that gave her comfort.  She has a very skewed view of the world, however.  And she still believes in heroes being larger than life.  I think she was disappointed by the warden, as the warden is very VERY human.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Her being unbalanced doesn't mean she's not a genius smith. Her being unbalanced doesn't mean she can't figure out how to work it. You don't have to be 'pure of heart' or even sane to operate the Anvil. Non-meta-gaming there is no reason to assume that she can't work it.

Her being unbalanced means you might not get what you need from her...or she might do what she did. Hole up with a bunch of golems and make the anvil useless for anyone that's not her. 

...Where are you getting this "pure of heart" nonsense from? 

am not talking about misusing Wardens OR Anvils. Stop arguing against what I'm not saying. ALL I said is that the Anvil can be misused, yes, and by forcing people who oppose you or your rivals to undertake the Joining that is also a misuse of the Joining. You can misuse the Anvil and the Joining. If you are insistent on talking about how being a golem is worse than being a Warden and how golems can be used to do ill while Wardens can't be directly opposed, please just drop the subject.

Forcing people to undertake the joining? Right. Because the Wardens are so forthcoming for their rituals...

You said making Wardens could be misused. Yet the general populace doesn't know how to make them. 

That's like saying you can misuse the army by forcing your enemies to recruit. 

What guarentee? There isn't really a path to the surface outside of Orzammar big enough to get golems through. And surely the thought of having golems again in, say, a century is better than destroying the potential for them forever since every other idiot who decides to recreate the Anvil uses fade spirits which backfires and kills all of them.

So the anvil is there and the main reason for saving it (to use for the war) is lost. Sure the dwarves might still be able to use it. But that same area after Branka's death might get darkspawn infested as well as being unreachable due to the golems themselves. There is no guarantee one way or the other. 

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Then he attacked the Warden not out of "survival" but because he knew he'd get killed? That makes more sense. Frankly though I'd rather him kill himself than try to take me out with him. You want to die? Be my guest just leave me out of it. 

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.

Siding with Cullen is acknowleging that you're performing the annulement. I see that as self-defense. 

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

Second edit: In an edit above, I stated my theory on why he sides with Taliesen if he doesn't like the warden -- I think he's completing his suicide.

He does have to trust a warden to admit to the suicide attempt, which many won't see.  You have to be at 76+ friendly or 71+ adore.

I saw all that already. The fact that he betrays you at neutral is way I can't spare him in any more of my playthroughs. No one else does that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.  

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

The irony is you can disagree with Cullen and then proceed to kill off Irving, with Wynne's help. As to what Wynne hopes to accomplish by attacking the Warden, perhaps she mistakes your character for Dr. Kevorkian.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[ejoslin]

The space where branka is IS darkspawn infested. The reason why there are so few darkspawn down there is because of the blight. This is why Orzammar is dying. Once you have the golems, though, you can push back the lines. At the expense of far fewer dwarven lives.

[Ryzaki]

Reaverwind wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.  

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

The irony is you can agree with Cullen and then proceed to kill off Irving, with Wynne's help. As to what Wynne hopes to accomplish by attacking the Warden, perhaps she mistakes your character for Dr. Kevorkian.

Wait...what? I thought if you sided with Cullen at the end Irving and the others were taken away?

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

I saw all that already. The fact that he betrays you at neutral is way I can't spare him in any more of my playthroughs. No one else does that. 

Your loss.  He's a fabulously written character

Edit: He's also the only companion who will stay with you at the end even if not a love interest.

What I don't like is that most of the companions will betray you no matter how good you've been to them.  If you're decent to Zevran, he won't betray you. No matter what.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...



The space where branka is IS darkspawn infested. The reason why there are so few darkspawn down there is because of the blight. This is why Orzammar is dying. Once you have the golems, though, you can push back the lines. At the expense of far fewer dwarven lives.

And how are the dwarves, who need said anvil, going to reach it? The Legion of the Dead doesn't even make it that far.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Then he attacked the Warden not out of "survival" but because he knew he'd get killed? That makes more sense. Frankly though I'd rather him kill himself than try to take me out with him. You want to die? Be my guest just leave me out of it. 

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.

Siding with Cullen is acknowleging that you're performing the annulement. I see that as self-defense. 

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

Second edit: In an edit above, I stated my theory on why he sides with Taliesen if he doesn't like the warden -- I think he's completing his suicide.

He does have to trust a warden to admit to the suicide attempt, which many won't see.  You have to be at 76+ friendly or 71+ adore.

I saw all that already. The fact that he betrays you at neutral is way I can't spare him in any more of my playthroughs. No one else does that. 

Your loss.  He's a fabulously written character

never said he wasn't well written. They all are even Wynne. He's just not for me. 

[ejoslin]

Of course wynne is well written -- she wouldn't be so much fun to hate if she weren't.

Edit: See, I honestly don't care if you kill Zevran -- there's this belief, it seems, that Zevran fans care about this if people kill him in their single player games (doesn't affect MY game at all).  I'm not sure if YOU have that belief, but that's the most common troll comment in the ZevThreads.

The reason he turns against the warden is to me just as understandable as the reasons other companions turn against the warden (Alistair, Wynne, Leliana, Shale, Morrigan).    

That he doesn't kill you in camp with poison says a lot about his motivations.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

And how are the dwarves, who need said anvil, going to reach it? The Legion of the Dead doesn't even make it that far.

It takes time for Darkspawn to reorganize, especially with the whole events of Awakening. A large enough group escorting the volunteers could probably make it. More so if you picked Bhelen who has the Casteless push deeper into the Deep Roads and recovering thaigs.

Once there's a few golems created, the area pretty much becomes a fortress and the Golems most likely assist any future volunteers.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And how are the dwarves, who need said anvil, going to reach it? The Legion of the Dead doesn't even make it that far.

It takes time for Darkspawn to reorganize, especially with the whole events of Awakening. A large enough group escorting the volunteers could probably make it. More so if you picked Bhelen who has the Casteless push deeper into the Deep Roads and recovering thaigs.

Once there's a few golems created, the area pretty much becomes a fortress and the Golems most likely assist any future volunteers.

Like those golems assisted the Warden?    

We don't know how Branka set up the area. But I doubt it'd be very "newcomer" friendly. 

And doesn't Bhelen try to reach her but can't? Due to the golems and the lot? 

[Reaverwind]

Ryzaki wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.  

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

The irony is you can agree with Cullen and then proceed to kill off Irving, with Wynne's help. As to what Wynne hopes to accomplish by attacking the Warden, perhaps she mistakes your character for Dr. Kevorkian.

Wait...what? I thought if you sided with Cullen at the end Irving and the others were taken away?

Yes, you can proceed to save Irving only to have them taken in by the Templars, BUT it is ALSO possible to disagree with Cullen AND go upstairs and let the mages die. Simply don't use the Litany and hold off killing Uldred until Irving turns.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And how are the dwarves, who need said anvil, going to reach it? The Legion of the Dead doesn't even make it that far.

It takes time for Darkspawn to reorganize, especially with the whole events of Awakening. A large enough group escorting the volunteers could probably make it. More so if you picked Bhelen who has the Casteless push deeper into the Deep Roads and recovering thaigs.

Once there's a few golems created, the area pretty much becomes a fortress and the Golems most likely assist any future volunteers.

Like those golems assisted the Warden?    

We don't know how Branka set up the area. But I doubt it'd be very "newcomer" friendly. 

And doesn't Bhelen try to reach her but can't? Due to the golems and the lot? 

After she fortifies herself, sure.  He had no problems reaching her at first.

[Ryzaki]

Reaverwind wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran wants to DIE! OMG! *grin* It's stated straight out in the game that he wants to die, and it's only if he realizes another way that he wants to live.

Edit: If you side with Cullen, you haven't even killed the mages yet, and she still attacks. I'm not sure what she is hoping to accomplish there, though; kill you then go in and kill Uldred herself?  You haven't attacked her at all.  

Maybe that spirit that has possessed her IS a pride demon...

The irony is you can agree with Cullen and then proceed to kill off Irving, with Wynne's help. As to what Wynne hopes to accomplish by attacking the Warden, perhaps she mistakes your character for Dr. Kevorkian.

Wait...what? I thought if you sided with Cullen at the end Irving and the others were taken away?

Yes, you can proceed to save Irving only to have them taken in by the Templars, BUT it is ALSO possible to disagree with Cullen AND go upstairs and let the mages die. Simply don't use the Litany and hold off killing Uldred until Irving turns.

 

Oh. That could be seen as Wynne being smart enough to realize well...they're abominations now. You can kill abominations. 

[Sarah1281]

You said making Wardens could be misused. Yet the general populace doesn't know how to make them.

And the average person doesn't know how to operate the Anvil. It was just a stupid comparison based solely on the fact that both can be misused and nothing else. I get that you don't like it. Debating a comparison to death is utterly pointless and I'm done with that.