88 réponses à ce sujet

[Dinlek]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Guns at the time period had a comparable rate of fire but extremely high armor penetration when compared to crossbows, plus the possibility of cone AOE damage.

I don't see how you could possible see a fire-arm providing cone AOE damage. Furthermore, though they may have had higher armor penetration, they had drastically less accuracy. If you've ever shot an unrifled weapon, or seen one shot, you'd be able to see it. Factor in the fact that due to the lack of factory-manufactured rounds, each one would be unique and would not fit into the barrel 'just-so', the accuracy would be even more mediocre.

Fire-rate is also rather poor on muzzle-loading firearms. In the 18th century, the well-drilled Prussian army soldiers were rumored to be able to manage six shots a minute in non-combat conditions. A more reasonable rate for a well-drilled soldier would be 3-4 a minute. One shot every 15 seconds, with an effective range of 50 yards. And that assumed that neither you, nor the target was moving overmuch (nice little European firing drills, all the men line up and take turns getting shot at).

I'm hardly an expert, but I do know that even in the 18th century, even the best drilled armies relied on volley fire for reliable kill-shots. I concur that guns would not fit in this setting. Not due to them being too technologically advanced, but rather the exact opposite: a well trained archer would be far more accurate with a bow.

I don't see any realistic way of incoporate a single man using a fire-arm in this period. Maybe if the party was on the scale of a few dozen men, certainly, using a fire-arm w/ bayonet against large groups of enemies would be effective.

And also, gunpowder countered plate armor, not the other way around. Gunpowder finished what the crossbow started: a single, untrained conscript had the potential to kill a well-armored, well trained noble knight with a single shot.

Finally, while gunpowder cannons may exist, that doesn't mean that matchlock weaponry is a direct consequence. Gunpowder artillery came before hand-held versions (which was why the first fire-arms were called 'hand cannons'). I haven't personally seen how advanced the cannons are, so it's difficult to well whether or not muzzle-loading portable firearms would be huge technological leap, but the cannons could be extremely primative versions like

[Krobon]

I have an idea to cater to everyone.. Make it a DLC, players who want it can download it, players who don't, leave it.



Seeing as this game will be heavilly dependant on new content to cater to users, putting in a gun model that caters to those that desire it, leave it to the archery skill tree and you have the look you want, after all it's essentially just cosmetics and whether it fits or not.. It's fantasy.. Everything fits in fantasy as long as the player desires it.

[Teivel]

Of course the fact that the game doesn't feature gunpowder weaponary doesn't mean that Thedas is entirely devoid of the technology.

As we've been told the Qunari have cannon and a blue water navy capable of maintaining an overseas conflict against the Tevinter Imperium almost indefinitely.
What we don't know is if the Qunari have depoloyed handheld weapons, the descriptions we have point to them using field artillery to devestating effect but few if any refferences to small arms.

That makes sense to be honest. The rise of the personal firearm was a function of economics as much as anything else..as knights were slowely driven to extinction by social and economic change (not because of the sudden appearance of guns), firearms offered a cheap and somewhat effective way of moulding the untrained underclasss into an effective army that could stand against a force of their "betters"

The qunari are built like giants, are imensely disciplined and train their entire lives. When you're dealing with troops that valuable it makes far more sense to equip them with heavy, bullet/blade resistant armour, a two handed blade and have them cut straight into enemy positions.

A Quanari with such a weapon could probably kill far more, far quicker than a man with a muzzleloader.

To them, gunpower is for artillery.

And in Ferelden? even if they had the technology, where is the tactical imperitive?

You've got mages that bring artillery scale firepower to the battlefield already. The feudal system of knights and professional feudal forces is alive and kicking, archery is common knowledge and troops tend to be seen wearing either leather armour (where a bullet is overkill) or massive silverite, red steel or dragonbone plate (where a bullet may not do the job). For all it's technical backwardness, it seems that smiths in Ferelden have far better materials at their command than Earth did at the time. The primitive musket or arquebus is not going to be a weapon of choice on Thedasian battlefields for a while yet if the writers have their wits about them.


Edit: food for thought:  Fusilliers vs Warhounds

Modifié par Teivel, 15 novembre 2009 - 11:11 .

[Wolff Laarcen]

I want a Mabari-mounted gatling gun mod.

[g37spot]

k1ck wrote...

there are tons of guns in this game.

Morrigan's are probably the most readily available though, i mean, she just wears lil purple cloth over hers, i'm sure a breeze would let em out.

I am glad someone else realizes the defense bonus and magic stats on Morrigans robe is easily sacrificed for a more interesting gameplay. Am I the only pervert that realizes Bioware has done a great job on a "camel-toe"...



Cheers

[andysdead]

Dragoro21 wrote...

Amazed at the amount of people that actually know what steampunk is here.

how are you surprised by this?

it's a very popular modern cliche.

[george144]

No dragon age is classic swords and sorcery with some interesting themes thrown in, throwing guns into it would ruin the whole feel, especially as next people would want trains, cyber armour ect. Also why the hell would anyone go to the trouble of inventing firearms when you live in a world full of mages who can blow peoples heads up with lightning. Why do some Americans want to insert guns into everything?

[Wolff Laarcen]

There are already crossbows and dragons and demons and magic in the game, primitive musket-type (1 shot and reload) guns/rifles wouldn't be such a stretch of the imagination imo.

You could just say it was cutting-edge dwarven technology, or a new magical innovation designed by the Circle of Magi to allow non-mages to use a small degree of magic power and defend themselves better against future blights. Anything is possible, I thought that's what 'fantasy' was all about.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 15 novembre 2009 - 02:49 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

There are already crossbows and dragons and demons and magic in the game, primitive musket-type (1 shot and reload) guns/rifles wouldn't be such a stretch of the imagination imo.

You could just say it was cutting-edge dwarven technology, or a new magical innovation designed by the Circle of Magi to allow non-mages to use a small degree of magic power and defend themselves better against future blights. Anything is possible, I thought that's what 'fantasy' was all about.

THANK YOU. If there's one thing I've always hated about fantasy conventions, it is that people use magic as an excuse to explain the STAGNATION of technology, when if you thought about it logically, the presence of magic would probably expedite technological progress. If you can see a mage shoot lightningbolts out of his hands, it wouldn't take long for someone to figure out those lightningbolts can be used for power, and before you know it (I'm talking a span of decades at best here) you'd have all of Denerim outfitted with copper wires- hooked up to mages.

[Sabin Stargem]

There is a pretty good steam-punk setting game called Thief, I highly recommend that game to fans of the setting.  In my opinion, Thief & Thief II are a very good demonstration of how fantasy and steampunk could be married.  For example, the Hammerite religious sect worship the Builder, who provided them the tools and knowledge needed to create civilization and beat back the Woodsy Lord.  This has lead them to creating mechanical switches and automated hammer presses, allowing them to mass-produce their signature hammers.  Essentially, the Hammerites believe the Builder to be an engineer, and aspire to honor him through being engineers themselves.


Additional Lore & Speculation
www.btinternet.com/~sneaksiethiefsie/


As one can guess, I support the addition of firearms into Dragon Age, because that would offer more storyline threads, and I would like to see what mages, chantry, and knights think of them.  Dragon Age is supposed to have additional DLC and expansion over two years, so it doesn't hurt to have an open mind concerning the lore and setting possibilities, in my opinion.

[Cowboy_christo]

Just no. DAO is not a historical medieval game. Its fantastic medieval. Just wait for a community mod or do it yourself, some and when i say some i mean most people dont want gun to be even seen in this game.

[MisanthropePrime]

Cowboy_christo wrote...

Just no. DAO is not a historical medieval game. Its fantastic medieval. Just wait for a community mod or do it yourself, some and when i say some i mean most people dont want gun to be even seen in this game.

And to that I ask... why? Everyone who says that they "don't want guns" or "guns are not fantasy" cannot seem to give a REASON why guns would somehow ruin the game.

[Wolff Laarcen]

MisanthropePrime wrote...
And to that I ask... why? Everyone who says that they "don't want guns" or "guns are not fantasy" cannot seem to give a REASON why guns would somehow ruin the game.

There IS no reason.  It's just their preferences, which is perfectly fine.

I still say with some creativity and imagination (key elements of the fantasy genre, or so i thought) guns could be worked in with no loss of lore integrity.  That's assuming you're creative and/or imaginative.

To those that don't want guns in their game, that's cool.  I can accept that.  I don't particularly like the depiction of dragons as 'just another type of animal' but having it in the game doesn't somehow break the gaming experience.  Agree to disagree.

[Dinlek]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Cowboy_christo wrote...

Just no. DAO is not a historical medieval game. Its fantastic medieval. Just wait for a community mod or do it yourself, some and when i say some i mean most people dont want gun to be even seen in this game.

And to that I ask... why? Everyone who says that they "don't want guns" or "guns are not fantasy" cannot seem to give a REASON why guns would somehow ruin the game.

I think it's rather obvious why, it just requires a different perspective on the issue.

It has nothing to do with logic or any reasoned opinion. Many people who grew up with the fantasy genre are, in a ways, comforted by the relatively archaic technology. The Sword, Shield and Bow have a sort of wholesomeness in American culture, calling back to the medieval period. When people think fantasy, many (perhaps even most) think King Arthur mixed with magic. More still think of Tolkien's works.

The firearm represents a giant step forward for many people (though realistically, it wasn't so). With a sword and a shield, you could take your life into your own hands; with a fire-arm, you could be gunned down without even knowing you were being targeted. Guns inspire a sort of fear in people, because in a way they're so random. Anyone could use them.

People who think guns would 'ruin the game' aren't thinking from a gameplay standpoint, they're thinking from the environmental standpoint. I personally don't imagine valorous warriors traveling up frozen mountain passes so that they may gun down the dragon. Your interest in steampunk clearly influences a different perspective on firearms. I personally don't think adding fire-arms would ruin the game, I just don't think they don't have a place their in regards to efficiency. They'd basically turn into a slower firing, relatively less accurate, higher damaging crossbow. If you like that, then cool. If done well, it would be pretty neat, I think.

I don't think guns could fit into any of the current classes, though. I think a cool thing to do would be to make a warrior/rogue hybrid, using a fire-arm with a bayonet. You can charge up, fire off a shot and then bash your enemy into submission.