237 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Ideally the batarians should be treated somewhat like the yahg or even the krogan. That is, after all non-batarian slaves are liberated (nonnegotiable) the batarians should isolated to a single star system (via forced relocation if necessary) and prevented from processing or developing FTL technology. Until such time as they no longer present a threat to their neighbors.

[JedTed]

I'm from Mindoir and i say KILL EM ALL!!!

Modifié par JedTed, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:45 .

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

Genocide is never the solution unless galactic safety is threatened.

If you are willing to slaughter innocent batarians alongside the guilty you are unfit to make such decisions. If you are willing to make judgments based upon exposure to a fraction of the population you are unfit to make such decisions.

 
The innocent must be slaughtered for they will give rise to the new guilty.  If we target only the guilty that means we still have to target a sizeable portion of their population.  Their government condones these actions (they even fund the pirates) as does anyone who owns slaves.  So we shall have to kill them as well as any military forces they send against us.  Now tell me that after such a massacre that the survivors would not resent us, that their children would not resent us, that they would not fail or refuse to learn the same lessons as their fathers, and that they would not start the whole cycle all over again.

Genocide ensures the cycle ends, never again will a Batarian rise to attack civillians and take them for slaves, never again will terrorists threaten colonies with asteroid drops, never again will the word Batarian inspire fear, and the Galaxy will learn that if you make us your enemy, if you continue to abuse our good nature and mercy, if you dare to presume our patience is infinite we will crush you.

Nightwriter wrote...
You would be more correct if you suggested a rigorous campaign against batarian pirate activity in the Traverse and the Terminus Systems.

As pointed out their government funds these pirates, any campaign against batarian piracy must extend to their government as well.

chris025657 wrote...
The problem I have with this view is that you seem to be lumping all Batarians into one group and one culture that defines slavery as acceptable. I doubt that Batarian society is a single monolithic culture that universally agrees on every issue.

When you say Batarian society approves of slavery, you are referring to the opinion of slave holders. I'm sure if you were to ask a Batarian slave or member of a lower caste what they felt about slavery, they would have a different opinion. Why should we hold the opinion of the slave-holders to be more worthy of respect than the slaves?

The problem is that every Batarian is taught, from birth, that slavery is right and good.  Even the lower castes who may not own slaves would believe this, similar to how if you went back and asked a poor farmer who didn't own slaves what he thought he probably wouldn't have a problem with it.  Cultural reform cannot be forced, the Batarians show no signs that such reform will occur from within, so the culture (which is a bane not only to humans but other species as well) must be destroyed.  The only way to achieve such destruction is to ensure the death of every man, woman, and child that is part of it.

[Nightwriter]

This is like saying we must wipe out everyone in the Middle East or in Afghanistan, the Taliban and the victims of the Taliban alike.

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

This is like saying we must wipe out everyone in the Middle East or in Afghanistan, the Taliban and the victims of the Taliban alike.

If that's what it takes.  If the Batarians can't, or won't, control their criminals (or at least make a visible attempt) then we can't trust them not to let more of these criminals crop up.  It's like gardening, you can cut them all you want but unless you pull out the roots the weeds will always come back.  So let's say we crush the slavers, every one of them dead, we have a generation of good times and then some 30 or 40 years later we have a new batch of slavers.  The culture that bred these criminals and set them loose must be dealt with if we ever want to truly stop them, and as I said we can't force cultural reform leaving us only one option.

[General User]

Nightwriter wrote...

Come on! I want a batarian genocide debate!! I am like so bored right now, the forums are givin' me nothin'! Nothin'!

Very well, how ‘bout this?

We know the batarians abduct other species for the purposes of slavery. We know their government actively supports slavery and aggression (Skylian Blitz). What aspect of their (the batarians) existence could possibly mitigate this?




@DPSSOC

Well put! I only stop short of full agreement in that I support an escalating level of violence against the batarians until they stop the practice of interspecies slavery. Beat on them hard enough to make them change or remove their ability to present a threat to others (works on humans). 

Such may include genocide, not deliberate genocide, but “Total War” ala Grand Admiral Cheesecake (military operations resulting in widespread civilian deaths, WMDs used on garden-worlds, etc.), or it may not. Hopefully the batarians will be wise enough to make such extreme measures unnecessary. But, I agree, ending the practice of slavery must be paramount even over the lives of batarian civilians.

[Nightwriter]

How about... people aren't weeds?

Culture shock makes us uncannily able to label and vilify different races and peoples. But you shouldn't commit genocide out of ignorance.

General User wrote...

Very well, how ‘bout this?

We know the batarians abduct other species for the purposes of slavery. We know their government actively supports slavery and aggression (Skylian Blitz). What aspect of their (the batarians) existence could possibly mitigate this?

Did you know we know absolutely nothing about what the average batarian thinks of their government?

The Department of Information Control has authority over all incoming and outgoing information. We have no idea what they think or what they want. They could be sitting around thinking, "Gee, I wish someone would overthrow this darn government, I hate it so." Or they could be thinking, "F*ck it, I'll become a terrorist just to get off this damn planet." Or more likely they're thinking, "I better wash my master's feet before I get brain matter beaten out of me again."

[chris025657]

DPSSOC wrote...

The problem is that every Batarian is taught, from birth, that slavery is right and good.  Even the lower castes who may not own slaves would believe this, similar to how if you went back and asked a poor farmer who didn't own slaves what he thought he probably wouldn't have a problem with it.  Cultural reform cannot be forced, the Batarians show no signs that such reform will occur from within, so the culture (which is a bane not only to humans but other species as well) must be destroyed.  The only way to achieve such destruction is to ensure the death of every man, woman, and child that is part of it.

Cultures can and do change. You can't assert that Batarians show no sign of change as you have no knowledge of this. It just is not likely that every Batarian slave believes that slavery is acceptable regardless of what they are taught.

Secondly, genocide against the Batarians is objectively wrong because you are killing those who bear absolutely no responsibility for slavery and attacks against humanity. 

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

How about... people aren't weeds?

 
I was speaking metaphorically of course, my point was if you don't attack the root of the problem it'll keep coming back.  Since we can't force them to act right, and they'd resent us if we tried resulting in an escalation of Batarian attacks on humans, we need to find other ways to tackle the root of the Batarian slaver problem (Batarian culture's tolerance of slaves).  Now there certainly are options other than genocide but I can't think of one that can guarantee the Batarians never again enslave another innocent.  Genocide is quick, it's clean, it's permanent, and if the Salarians are willing to help it could even be bloodless.

chris025657 wrote...
Cultures can and do change. You can't assert that Batarians show no sign of change as you have no knowledge of this. It just is not likely that every Batarian slave believes that slavery is acceptable regardless of what they are taught.

I can assert that they show no signs of change because, well they don't.  The Batarians have had this system for some time, I have no evidence that anyone is trying to change it, ergo they show no sign of changing.  If I met even one Batarian who wasn't up on slavery I'd re-evaluate my position, not saying I'd come to a different conclusion but I'd re-evaluate.  And I'm sure the Batarians who are slaves don't think it's ok but they'd be the only ones.

chris025657 wrote...
Secondly, genocide against the Batarians is objectively wrong because you are killing those who bear absolutely no responsibility for slavery and attacks against humanity.

Yes but they allowed it to happen.  Why isn't important the point is that their culture permits the rise of criminals who can pose a serious inter-planetary threat to civillians.  Either the general public can't or won't control them so the only way to stop a new batch from rising is to wipe the lot of them out.  Yes their culture could change but there's been no evidence it is or ever will, and we can't force change upon them to keep them from producing a new batch of slavers, so destruction's our only choice.

[Hopefire]

Why stop at the Batarians?

[Nightwriter]

History has shown us it is quite messy and dangerous to wipe out a whole culture, especially a very large one.

It has also shown us that every time you do, you kill innocents.

[DPSSOC]

Yes innocent Batarians will die, but how many more innocent humans, turians, asari, etc. will be spared a life of slavery and torture because we ended the Batarian menace.

[Kaiser Shepard]

There are no innocents in war, only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear.



I have no idea who I'm quoting (paraphrasing?) there, but it's relevant to how I feel one must see war.

[wizardryforever]

DPSSOC wrote...
 Yes their culture could change but there's been no evidence it is or ever will, and we can't force change upon them to keep them from producing a new batch of slavers, so destruction's our only choice.

So you're saying that because our limited intel hasn't shown something, we must assume the opposite is true?  We must kill them all because there is no evidence either way?  That seems way too bloodthirsty.  How about we give them the benefit of the doubt before we decide to wipe out the entire race, hmm?

Slavery supporting cultures have changed on Earth with enough people spreading the belief that slavery is wrong, why couldn't it work on Kar'shan?  I'm just saying we should have more consclusive evidence before we destroy an entire species.

[RevengeofNewton]

Sometimes some bioware forumites scare me.

[DomerPyle]

DO NOT WANT



batarians are awesome. /thread

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes innocent Batarians will die, but how many more innocent humans, turians, asari, etc. will be spared a life of slavery and torture because we ended the Batarian menace.

I guarantee you more billions of innocent batarian lives will die in a genocide than could ever be captured or abducted in fringe colony raids by batarian slavers.

We need better defenses of the outer colonies, not genocide.

[DPSSOC]

wizardryforever wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 Yes their culture could change but there's been no evidence it is or ever will, and we can't force change upon them to keep them from producing a new batch of slavers, so destruction's our only choice.

So you're saying that because our limited intel hasn't shown something, we must assume the opposite is true?

Pretty much yeah.  Better safe than sorry and all that.

wizardryforever wrote...
We must kill them all because there is no evidence either way?

But there is evidence one way.  The Batarian government supports slavers and pirates in the Terminus Systems, and a government is indicative of it's people, if it were not it would have been pulled down.  As I've said the Batarians have been using this system for some time and the people either can't or don't want to, change it.  If it's the former they're tragic victims and they will be mourned, if it's the latter then prepare the guilty for execution.

wizardryforever wrote...
That seems way too bloodthirsty.  How about we give them the benefit of the doubt before we decide to wipe out the entire race, hmm?

Because of the cost of that doubt.  How long do we wait?  How many innocent lives will be destroyed while we wait?  How many Mindoirs and Terra Novas do we accept before we draw the line?  How many lives will you sacrifice to delay putting a rabid dog down?

wizardryforever wrote...
Slavery supporting cultures have changed on Earth with enough people spreading the belief that slavery is wrong, why couldn't it work on Kar'shan?

And how would you propose we do that?  If I'm not mistaken the Batarian government has very firm control over what information their people get.

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm just saying we should have more consclusive evidence before we destroy an entire species.

We know it's happening, we know the government supports it, we have no evidence the people oppose the government.  I really do think we've got enough here.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes innocent Batarians will die, but how many more innocent humans, turians, asari, etc. will be spared a life of slavery and torture because we ended the Batarian menace.

I guarantee you more billions of innocent batarian lives will die in a genocide than could ever be captured or abducted in fringe colony raids by batarian slavers.

We need better defenses of the outer colonies, not genocide.

But in a truly just world those defenses should not be necessary to guarantee safety.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:02 .

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes innocent Batarians will die, but how many more innocent humans, turians, asari, etc. will be spared a life of slavery and torture because we ended the Batarian menace.

I guarantee you more billions of innocent batarian lives will die in a genocide than could ever be captured or abducted in fringe colony raids by batarian slavers.

In a year perhaps, but what about ten years?  A hundred?  A thousand?  The Batarians will not stop until someone has the courage to make them stop and I say we draw the line here, this far no further. 

Nightwriter wrote...
We need better defenses of the outer colonies, not genocide.

I'm told the best defence is a good offence.

[curly haired boy]

innocent Batarians

A clear contradiction in terms!

All batarians are vile, thus all of them must die.

[Nightwriter]

Obviously. But there is no such thing as a truly just world.

History has shown us that slave castes are ticking time bombs, there is massive potential for revolt there. Once slaves understand that what is being done to them is wrong, and that they have the power to change that, little can stop them.

Rather than commit genocide I think Citadel races should somehow inspire the Hegemony's own slaves to rebel and overthrow their government. It would be much more effective than actually waging war on the batarians and we'd lose much less in the process.

[gadna13]

DPSSOC wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm just saying we should have more consclusive evidence before we destroy an entire species.

We know it's happening, we know the government supports it, we have no evidence the people oppose the government.  I really do think we've got enough here.

You really believe that? Because of a vast majority of Batarians we meet (which is actually quite few) in game support it, thats enough evidence to say they all do? We barely have any information on the subject and yet that's enough to assume change can never happen?

I mean, go back into our civilizations' history a few hundred years and I doubt anyone would think we would be at the point we are now as far as civil rights.

[Wildecker]

They may enslave their own people as much as they like - I'll accept that as custom and tradition.

But the instant one of their slavers raids hits a colony I happen to be allied with, they will regret their choice. I'll start bombing their worlds to hell and back: an eye for an eye and a world for a world.

The results should be spectacular when a small craft hits a planet at .9 the speed of light ...

[wizardryforever]

The government is at fault, not every batarian in existence.  The first step should be to topple their government and establish a galaxy-friendly government.  Think of what MacArthur did for Japan after WWII.  The US dismantled the Japanese government after forcing them into submission, and now they are one of the most "western" Asian nations in terms of culture and government.   Note that we did not decide to wipe out all Japanese in existence because of what the government authorized.  That sounds remarkably like what the Soviets wanted to do to the Germans.  Reform should at least be tried before jumping to genocide as a viable option.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:19 .