60 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ethereal Writer]

I mean seriously, why can't that happen? It has nothing to do with them being a grey warden, because Alistair can become king and the Human Nobles are able to become King/Queen Consort depending on what gender you're playing. If it has something to do with your name being stripped from the Memories, why is it that in Dwarven Society there are Proving matches to clear your name? You're still an Aeducan through and through.

I was severely dissapointed when I discovered that my dwarf noble couldn't become king of the short, hairy, cave dwelling peoples.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because Bioware wants your Warden to not matter to the greater story beyond Origins, at all.

[The Ethereal Writer]

Yet they matter to Awakening, which takes place after Origins and is part of the greater story.....



I think....

[Sarah1281]

Because you are still an exile and not a Paragon at the time of the crowning. Bhelen won't let you near the throne at all and while Harrowmont might, they probably don't want to just assume you'll rule. They don't assume all HNs marry Alistair or Anora, after all. Those that want to have to go out of their way to arrange it at the Landsmeet, after all. Until DA2, DA3, or whatever tells you who succeeds Bhelen and/or Harrowmont you can feel free to imagine that you do.

[The Ethereal Writer]

you don't have to be a paragon to become king. It just helps a lot. Dwarven history shows exiles even returning back to Orzammar to take the throne. It could've been like the landsmeet sorta. Either you rule, bhelen rules, or harrowmont rules. whatever it is you fancy. You can find proof of your innocence behind trian's death, if you went that way in the origin story. There are so many points I could make as to why you should've been able to become king or queen, but I just don't know why it wasn't possible....

[The Ethereal Writer]

Here's what I had been thinking up one day when I was playing as my dwarf noble (who looks like the cuddliest dwarf you'll ever see lol). You return to Orzammar, take part in the Proving match for Harrowmont, win, they say the Ancestors have shown their favor on an Exiled Dwarf, and you get a bit more respect.



Then you meet with Harrowmont, and he asks you if you were considering competing for the throne since you are still an Aeducan, where you can either say yes or no. if you say yes, he tells you about Jarvia and then says you'll need to find some hard evidence to clear your name (meaning the papers or whatever in Jarvia's hideout saying Bhelen hired thugs to kill Trian, assuming you didn't kill Trian of course). Then find Branka, get the crown, and take the throne. That's what I believe should've happened.

[Sarah1281]

...Wow, thank you so much for enlightening me that you don't have to be a Paragon to become King!



Seriously, I only mentioned not being Paragon because that combined with your exile means that you cannot possibly become King then. You're an exile. Harrowmont AND Nerav address it. House Aeducan not only doesn't support you but won't even acknowledge that you exist. You have no caste and the Assembly wouldn't vote for you. The Proving is not a decisive indicator of who becomes King as once it takes place the throne isn't settled. If you win it for Harrowmont or Bhelen you can still put the other one on the throne. It just gets SOME votes, not all.



Harrowmont doesn't ask if you want to compete for the throne because Harrowmont knows you don't stand a chance in hell. You're a convinced kinslayer regardless of what really happened. Dwarven history shows ONE person that I can think of and we don't even know if that's true since Rica is the only one who mentions the mythical casteless Paragon King to her sibling and yet in the DC epilogue slide you're called the first ever casteless Paragon. Also, he likely forced his way to the throne militarily unless you really think that Orzammar would voluntarily elect a Surfacer with a casteless brand.



You are NOT still an Aeducan. You may consider yourself one, you may have been born one, but as far as the law is concerned you are not one. You may have wanted it to happen but it's impossible.

[The Ethereal Writer]

You like sarcasm? I do too! And all that stuff I said in my previous comment? That's what I had thought up in my head one day for how I wished it could've happened. Not once did I say winning the Proving makes someone king.



Also it's COMPLETELY unheard of for there to be an Epilogue screen glitch. That thing where you are called King/Queen Consort one moment and then prince/princess consort is just a minor formality. Dwarven law may say you aren't an Aeducan anymore, but dwarven law also contradicts itself by saying you can redeem yourself.



Though, maybe I should wait to see if a Bioware rep notices this topic. They'd know more than us, wouldn't you say?

[Sarah1281]

I just resent being told such basic facts (you don't have to Paragon to be king and neither Harrowmont or Bhelen are Paragons) like I know nothing about Orzammar. And I didn't say that you thought that the Proving decided a king. I just pointed out that, more respect or not, it's not enough to make you a viable candidate at that time. I know you said that's what you feel should have happened, I'm explaining why I feel that that SHOULDN'T happen as it would make no sense.



Epilogue slides can glitch. You can get the mistress 'Queen Anora was uncomfortable with Alistair and the Warden's relationship' even if you're queen. Whether you call yourself king consort or prince consort doesn't really matter, true. That doesn't mean that an epilogue slide is WRONG. If the slide for a US DC says

The Assembly posthumously declared <FirstName/> a Paragon, following months of deliberation... the first duster ever to receive the honor. A new house was founded in her name, and so many casteless flocked to its banner that it became one of the largest in the city.

I'm going to feel secure in assuming that this is true. It calls you a duster which is, of course, another word for casteless. Only dwarves can become Paragons. Maybe you might get this slide when you're not supposed to or it could not show up when it is but that doesn't make the information on it wrong.



How does dwarven law contradict itself here? Saying that you can redeem yourself in death by dying defending Orzammar? Guess what, they're not saying that you are an Aeducan again. It's just saying that though you were stripped of your name and are now little better than a casteless, you could try to redeem yourself (WIHTOUT BEING REINSTATED) in death and the stone might not reject you. No contradiction that I can see.



They probably would. Of course, since this really isn't complicated or confusing, I don't see why they would jump in and make it even more obvious why any chance you have of taking the throne is post-coronation.

[The Ethereal Writer]

I know how you feel about being treated like you know nothing about something. For what it's worth I apologize. And while I don't want this entire discussion to end, how about you and I agree to disagree. there are some ways in which it is plausible to become ruler of Orzammar, and others in which it isn't.



I just feel that maybe there should've been a way that you could get your name back and get the throne during the whole Orzammar questline. Darvianak Volney was able to win a proving that gave him Valos Atredum and cleared his name of the suspicion of fratricide. Why can't the Dwarf Noble have that too when he returns? Ah well, nothing that can be done



And from what I've seen on some other topics, the devs respond to all types of simple questions and queries, just because they can.



Still, I want this to be a valid discussion, hopefully I can draw in some agreements with how I felt.

[ejoslin]

Sarah is correct, though. You're not a contender for the throne because you are not an Aeducan. The shaper only recognizes you as a Gray Warden. You're not a dwarf. There's no record of you. You... never existed, you're stricken from the memories.

Bioware won't address this topic, though, I don't think. But if you have any questions about epilogue slide glitches, I can help you with them. Here are some of the glitches:

Queen Anora may be referenced even if she is not queen.
A male warden in love with Zevran will be called a woman if they travel together
If Morrigan is in love, the ring slide doesn't appear but it does if she's still in love (it should probably trigger for both)
Many of the slides, including the City Elf and Dalish boon slides don't trigger, at least not if Alistair is king (I've had some reports that they show when Anora is queen, but due to a corrupt file in the toolset, I cannot verify it).

Whether you're called king or queen or princess/prince consort is irrelevant -- they mean the same thing. You're not the ruler -- you're the spouse of the ruler. How much power that equals is up to how your roleplay it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 octobre 2010 - 01:52 .

[TJPags]

Well, the DN is made casteless after being convicted of killing his brother, no?

So, since when can a casteless dwarf become King - or Queen - of Orzamar?

That's the basic probem.

Question - do they name you Paragon if you do the DR?

[ejoslin]

They do name you paragon no matter what.  DR or no.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:00 .

[The Ethereal Writer]

TJPags wrote...

Well, the DN is made casteless after being convicted of killing his brother, no?

So, since when can a casteless dwarf become King - or Queen - of Orzamar?

That's the basic probem.

Question - do they name you Paragon if you do the DR?

Well, Rica does tell a DC that there was a time when another casteless became a paragon, but like Sarah said above, the validity of that is a bit hard to know, especially if a DC epilogue claims you as the first. I'm not sure what to believe on that point

Also I'm trying to think if there was a time in dwarven history where a dwarf who was stricken from the Memories regained everything.

[The Ethereal Writer]

bah too many abbreviated thingies. I barely even know what some mean.

[TJPags]

Well then.

A Paragon becomes the head of his/her own house, correct?  And is recognized as such, yes?

So, is a Paragon allowed to be king?

[The Ethereal Writer]

paragons can be made kings yes. depending on how the Assembly votes

EDIT: Also, above when I said that glitches in the epilogue were unheard of, not sure if Sarah understood what I was saying, but I was being sarcastic there. I figured that could be an epilogue glitch too since rica tells you about casteless whats-his-face from who knows when

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:06 .

[ejoslin]

But you're not a paragon until quite a bit after there's a king on the throne. It's possible you could take it over after Harrowmont dies, but I think that only makes sense for a dwarf noble male with a son. But Orzammar, depending on certain things, may not be worth much of anything if you make Harrowmont king.

[The Ethereal Writer]

The main problem I had with Orzammar was either you put the selfish (god I want to curse on here but it'll just be dashed out), murdering, psychopath on the throne who is a good king for Orzammar... or you put a morally good guy on the throne who isn't fit to be king because he's too nice and he leads orzammar into a downward spiral of decay and ruin. That's when I wanted to become King as a DN. You can be the best of both worlds. Compassionate and ruthless. You can kill off that Vollney guy early on and show you're more ruthless than people thought

does bioware make everything in their games not black and white? Because when things aren't black and white, it becomes so much more complicated

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Sarah1281]

Well, Rica does tell a DC that there was a time when another casteless became a paragon, but like Sarah said above, the validity of that is a bit hard to know, especially if a DC epilogue claims you as the first. I'm not sure what to believe on that point.

This always reminds me of that time in the CE origin when you can tell those children who are playing some game about humans to pretend to be an elven hero instead and when Soris asks about what you told them, you confess that you made it up because they needed an elven hero. Rica might just think that you need a casteless hero. She's always trying to keep your spirits up and encourage you, what better way than to talk about the miraculous casteless man who went to the Surface and came back and took the throne AND became a Paragon? That would be impressive for anybody but for a casteless?

Also I'm trying to think if there was a time in dwarven history where a dwarf who was stricken from the Memories regained everything.

I suspect that they refuse to acknowledge it. The Shaper tells a casteless Warden that they don't exist outside of being a Warden and it's not too hard for me to see the DN going back to Orzammar after the Blight's over and the Shaper not admitting to the exile. After all, a person that exists legally always exists. How can they exist, not exist for a year, and come back? It wouldn't fit in with their convoluted legal system.

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

But you're not a paragon until quite a bit after there's a king on the throne. It's possible you could take it over after Harrowmont dies, but I think that only makes sense for a dwarf noble male with a son. But Orzammar, depending on certain things, may not be worth much of anything if you make Harrowmont king.

Bhelen has Endrin Jr. with Rica regardless of what origin you are or what you do. If you're a DNF or don't have a child with Mardy and never have a child of your own, you could always make Bhelen's son your heir. He's so young that it's not like he'll remember his father anyway.

[The Ethereal Writer]

told you dwarven society contradicts itself lol. It's a very complex system. how they work around it is a mystery...

Oh wait I know! through bullying, murder, slander, and calumny! No political savvy whatsoever, just brutality

also didn't know you could tell soris about the kids. cool.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Sarah1281]

Oh wait I know! through bullying, murder, slander, and calumny! No political savvy whatsoever, just brutality

Of course it's political savvy. Except when the city is in chaos (like when there's no king on the throne for three weeks) they're not murdering each other in the streets. Staying alive requires a great deal of savvy and not being taken advantage of does as well.

Edit: 

also didn't know you could tell soris about the kids. cool.

I don't know if you can tell him, I just already had Soris in my party and he commented on it.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:14 .

[TJPags]

ejoslin wrote...

But you're not a paragon until quite a bit after there's a king on the throne. It's possible you could take it over after Harrowmont dies, but I think that only makes sense for a dwarf noble male with a son. But Orzammar, depending on certain things, may not be worth much of anything if you make Harrowmont king.

Well, than I'd say you COULD be king - AFTER Bhelen/Harrowmont.

After all, unlike Ferelden, Orzamar HAS a ruler, and when that ruler is chosen, you're not eligible.  When you ARE eligble, there's already a ruler.

Catch-22, but there it is.

I suppose you could hold out hope for DA3.

[The Ethereal Writer]

well... one dude killed someone in the street because he badmouthed bhelen. He had anger issues. but yea I see your point there



All in all it's an odd political savvy I guess, politically brutal savvy.