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[ejoslin]

Well, dwarven politics ARE brutal.

[The Ethereal Writer]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, dwarven politics ARE brutal.

obviously. DN people know that the hard way. Reminds me of Alistair saying "It's so nice to see everyone coming together in a crisis! Warms the heart..." in Lothering. It applies in Orzammar as well. Everyone's out for numero uno.

[ejoslin]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, dwarven politics ARE brutal.

obviously. DN people know that the hard way. Reminds me of Alistair saying "It's so nice to see everyone coming together in a crisis! Warms the heart..." in Lothering. It applies in Orzammar as well. Everyone's out for numero uno.

This is all spelled out very clearly.  Bhelen is right, though; he is the most suited to be king.

He's not a nice guy, but a nice guy is not what is needed.  He is a strong leader, and he sees the dire situation Orzammar is in.  The status quo is what is killing Orzammar.

[The Ethereal Writer]

But he's also subtle.... as sin, as Denek Helmi put it. Bhelen was and wasn't the most suited to be king. He was a power hungry child who was angry he was never a part of the political scene, which he only had himself to blame as his family couldn't stand his antics. He may have made Orzammar thrive in the harsh times they were in, which was all well and good, but he almost destroyed the Aeducan name with his schemes in my opinion.

[ejoslin]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...

But he's also subtle.... as sin, as Denek Helmi put it. Bhelen was and wasn't the most suited to be king. He was a power hungry child who was angry he was never a part of the political scene, which he only had himself to blame as his family couldn't stand his antics. He may have made Orzammar thrive in the harsh times they were in, which was all well and good, but he almost destroyed the Aeducan name with his schemes in my opinion.

I don't agree with you over Bhelen's motives.  I don't think he was a child acting out of anger -- and there is nothing at all wrong with being subtle.

The fact that Bhelen could get you convicted and sentenced without a trial despite this being against all the laws and such of the land -- he could get something like THAT through the assembly -- where Harrowmont could not even get the nobles to uphold the laws...  that really is something.  He understood the game and could play it far better than you could.  And he very much supported change to a seriously messed up society.  One where you, as a Dwarf Noble, could have citizens killed on a whim and absolutely no one would complain.

Orzammar is dying in the game.  The population is falling, they're losing the war with the darkspawn.  And Harrowmont wants the current system to continue.  He's all noble and good unless you happen to be a casteless -- in which case, he is all for a truly barbaric system.  Bhelen is willing to take on society and change it. 

Edit: And you, at the point where you decide on the king, cannot rule, even if there wasn't the technicality of you being stricken from the record.  Are you going to leave the Gray Wardens at that point?  Appoint a regent when things are already very very shaky? (someone would have to have a death wish to take THAT spot)  While it would be satisfying to put the crown on your own head at that point, for all practical purposes, there is no way you can rule.  And having an absentee ruler is just inviting a civil war.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 octobre 2010 - 02:56 .

[The Ethereal Writer]

first his subtletly was too much. It was the devious sort, not the ok I'll hide something in here let's see if it works kind. second I'm not saying he acted completely out of anger, but that definitely played a part in it. And third Bhelen does see the flaws in the system I'll grant you that, but given the opportunity so could the Dwarf Noble.



That's really what this discussion boils down to. why isn't that opportunity in there. Dwarven tradition could grant you a shot at the throne. why didn't bioware implement it into the game?



And will someone please answer my bioware question? Please? Do they make everything so not black and white in their games?

[Sarah1281]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...



But he's also subtle.... as sin, as Denek Helmi put it. Bhelen was and wasn't the most suited to be king. He was a power hungry child who was angry he was never a part of the political scene, which he only had himself to blame as his family couldn't stand his antics. He may have made Orzammar thrive in the harsh times they were in, which was all well and good, but he almost destroyed the Aeducan name with his schemes in my opinion.

I disagree that he was angry he was never part of the political scene. He was a prince of Orzammar and the third in line for the throne. It was stated that his most remarkable feature was his ability to stay out of trouble. People didn't just ignore him because he was unskilled or he couldn't get attention. He deliberately did that so that his brothers would trust him (Trian trusted him about you being out to kill him, you may or may not trust him about Trian, no one suspects him) while he worked for years to make under-the-table deals so that when Trian died no one would ask questions and they'd immediately exile you. He needed to be obscure and 'harmless' to pull that off. Although I do think that he had daddy issues, yes, particularly once he reveals just how competent he is and Endrin still doesn't care about him.



I also don't know what you mean 'his family couldn't stand his antics.' His family supports him fully when you arrive back in Orzammar and all you get before is Trian thinking he doesn't take being a prince seriously and is only concerned with pleasure (which couldn't be more wrong but it was part of Bhelen's cover and that trick he pulls getting the messenger to try to get Trian to play errand boy for your dagger helps keep Trian pissed at you) and Endrin being less interested in him than his other sons but just because he wasn't daddy's favorite doesn't mean the rest of the family didn't like him or he wasn't capable.

[Sarah1281]

And will someone please answer my bioware question? Please? Do they make everything so not black and white in their games?

Basically. KotOR (the first game I played by them) was more black-and-white but they shift away from that, particularly in this game.

And third Bhelen does see the flaws in the system I'll grant you that, but given the opportunity so could the Dwarf Noble.

But Bhelen doesn't want the DN on the throne. He wants to be king. Note that a desire for the throne doesn't make him undeserving of it or not qualified for it.

[Ryzaki]

The only thing I don't like is that the DN is forced to be disturbingly naive or stupid in the origin. Surely he/she would've expected such a power play if he/she was reasonably politically savy?

[The Ethereal Writer]

by not standing his antics I meant the whole not getting into trouble thing. Trian's journal states that he was more of a jokester than a true noble. but you've made a very interesting point. Maybe he did that deliberately so his deals would go unnoticed. And Trian was an ****, but he wouldn't try to kill you, not unless you were going to and Bhelen tells him that. Trian's ****ness was how he showed his love to his brothers. Trust me on that I know. I've seen it in my life.



But think about it. If you were related to Bhelen, say as a cousin like Piotin, would you willingly hand off the throne to someone else? Or would you want your family's name to stay on the throne so you could keep power? I'm not claiming to know the motives of all the Aeducan family, but I'm wiling to bet some of them just wanted Bhelen on the throne so the Aeducans would still have power. They couldn't give a rat's ass whether he was truly competent or not.

[The Ethereal Writer]

Ryzaki wrote...

The only thing I don't like is that the DN is forced to be disturbingly naive or stupid in the origin. Surely he/she would've expected such a power play if he/she was reasonably politically savy?

thank you. I agree on that point wholeheartedly kind ser.

[Sarah1281]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The only thing I don't like is that the DN is forced to be disturbingly naive or stupid in the origin. Surely he/she would've expected such a power play if he/she was reasonably politically savy?

thank you. I agree on that point wholeheartedly kind ser.

I disagree and I'm going to repost something that I wrote a little while ago explaining why I disagree. It's kind of long.

 There's a perfectly reasonable explanation for this that doesn't involve you having to be stupid.

Bhelen has been hanging around with Trian a lot as we've seen and Trian's being openly contemptuous of you and, if you read his journal, is worried that the fact you have a Proving be held in your honor (which if you're a DNF could be handwaved as Harrowmont trying to find a husband for you it still happens for a DNM so that can't be the only reason) is indicative that you'll be replacing him as heir. I can't be certain of what Trian was like before but it seems like he's being more hostile than usual and I'm betting that Bhelen's been feeding his paranoia. We know that they've been talking about you since if you agree to go straight to the feast then Trian says he supposes Bhelen might be right that you're more than useless breeding flesh/have some regard for your duty and station.

Then there's the fact that if you agree to kill Trian then Trian is waiting to ambush you first. You can't know, of course, but I think he was waiting even if you don't kill him and that's why he's at the meeting place when you show up. If you ask him why he arrived early when you kill him he reveals that he got there early so he could confront you about your plot to kill him that Bhelen told him about. Bhelen's had time to get Trian to come around to the idea but doesn't approach you until the night before Trian's death.

You've had one possibly two negative encounters with Trian no matter how you play it as he's determined to say something condescending given his paranoia about you and so he's overcompensating. If nothing else, he's just refused to attend your feast as talking to Bhelen in his room was more important (even if he promsied to go the first time you see him) and that's a deliberate, caluculated insult. Bhelen also makes sure to mention Trian stopped him from going so you don't have support from either brother at the feast which has got to be embarrassing.

Trian leaves because he needs to see your father. Endrin doesn't say why he needs to see him but Trian presumes that it's to go over the battle plan again. The feast is over at this point, Trian tells Bhelen to get to bed after he's done talking to you, and you yourself go to bed after this conversation. We don't know how long Trian's talk with Endrin is but it can't be a short message or else you could have delivered that instead of sending Trian to him so presumably it takes awhile. You do not have an opportunity to talk to him after this.

Bhelen tells you that Trian's out to kill you and given that Trian is getting more and more hostile and Bhelen is very careful to make it seem like he's staying neutral but also, the minute Trian leaves, to give the impression that he's sick of Trian's behavior but since they've been together so much Bhelen would probably know what Trian's up to regardless of if he's being honest with you. All day you've been hearing people say that Trian's ascession isn't guarenteed and that whispers (that may be accurate or may have been staged by Bhelen to further his plots) so Bhelen's claim that Trian is worried about Endrin naming you as his new heir or the Assembly turning against him in favor of you once Endrin dies sounds plausible and I believe that that is the case although Bhelen certainly subtly encouraged Trian's insecurity in that regard.

Bhelen also lists precedents, claims his interest is that Trian's paranoia may hurt Bhelen next, and lists off killing Mandar Dace or winning your own Proving as an example of why people want you to rule. He's spent years passing himself off as the harmless, no-talent, trustworthy little brother who says that he actually SAW Trian ordering his men to ambush you. When you ask him for his opinion, he doesn't advise killing Trian but just says that he'll follow your lead.

You have three options here. The 'I'll kill Trian no matter what' option which leads to a confrontation and the 'I'll keep my eye on him to see if that's true and won't commit fratricide over something I've heard second-hand' or the 'I won't fight a brother/I don't believe this' options which lead to you finding him dead. The 'I'm so innocent, I'd never attack a brother no matter what he might be planning' option strikes me as rather naive in the Orzammar court given what we've heard in Duncan's 'you're Lady/Lord Aeducan' intro and what we've seen just exploring the city. Still, if you feel that that's a stupid take on it then you don't have to take it and one stupid choice does not mean you can't make a more intelligent decision.

The 'I'm definitely going to kill him, no doubt about it' option that leads to a confrontation indicates that since you're just going to take Bhelen's word for it you have FAR too much trust in someone who stands to gain a great deal with both you and Trian out of the picture or that you already have been thinking about killing him, which you can tell Gorim about after first meeting Trian. In this case, you want Trian dead so of course you're not going to try and settle this legally and non-lethally as you and Bhelen have just agreed that you will kill him the very next day in the Aeducan Thaig and blame it on darkspawn.

Of course, you could RP that you're just telling Bhelen that and don't intend to follow through or have had second thoughts and don't like how you can't talk Trian down when he confronts you. He has been listening to Bhelen feeding his paranoia and turning him decisively against you for weeks now if not longer since we know that he's been planning this for years in order to cement his status as the harmless one and to win over all the deshyrs he has supporting him. Then Bhelen tells him you're planning on killing him the next day either before or after he talks to you about Trian's supposed plot.

Still, Trian wants to settle this legally and orders you to throw down your weapons and confess. You will be tried for your treason before the Assembly and plotting against the heir to the throne is treason. The appearance of honor is paramount so even if you would hardly be unique in this, you're the one who gets caught. Assuming you don't decide to attack because you still want him dead, you can see doing as Trian asks and avoiding a fight as as good as a confession and refuse to do so thus prompting Trian to attack or you could agree to surrender but the bribed scout refuses and attacks. I suppose that if you were actually there you could just kill the scout but at that point I think Trian is convinced you won't do as he asks and will still go after you.

If you decide to watch Trian and only attack if he attacks first (or you just don't want Bhelen to know what you're planning) then you also find him dead. This, like the 'I'd never fight a brother', would be the more realistic course of action to take if you wanted to confront him peacefully and settle this with a Proving but you really don't get a chance. The expedition is the very next day and given Trian's habit of avoiding you and Bhelen's of staying near Trian (and he'd definitely make sure to be there to prevent you from doing just that) you don't get an opportunity to talk to him. Maybe after the expedition you could have had he lived but that's why Bhelen tells you at the last minute, so you don't have time to talk to Trian or to agree to kill him then think it over and change your mind. If you decide not to kill Trian the very next day like Bhelen's plan requires then the casteless mercenaries who have Trian's ring and attack you right before you find the shield killed him and you taking back the ring just further points to your guilt.

Bhelen leads the expedition straight to you and the scout first accuses you, backed up by the noble-caste and seemingly honorable Frandlin Ivo. Gorim's a warrior and too loyal to you to be trusted on this and you obviously would deny it or claim self-defense no matter what happened. You can't even back out of the expedition that Bhelen says Trian intends to ambush you on because it's being held partly to celebrate your first commission.

Did you know that King Endrin never thinks you're guilty and has you exiled anyway to avoid a scandal that won't die down within his lifetime that will cost House Aeducan the throne? What do you think calling a public Proving about how the two of you want to kill each other over the throne will do but make sure that another House gets it? If you were going that option then you might as well not be plotting against each other at all as you're not going to keep the throne with the Aeducans and should you challenge him everyone who wants to see the Aeducans keep the throne will do whatever it takes to stop you.

Yes, you can't really win but neither can Amell, Surana, Cousland, Tabris, Brosca, or Mahariel. It doesn't mean that you can't act unintelligently. It just means that Bhelen's brilliant and has been planning this for years wherease you, no matter how smart you are, have less than a day's warning and so even if you come to the conclusion that Bhelen's trying to get you two to kill each other you can't really know that once you refused his first plan he'd go through with killing Trian tomorrow anyway. Even if you do manage to work that out, though, the only way you'll get there in time to see a living Trian is if you claim you're going to kill him and between the scout and Trian himself, they won't let you keep him alive.

You're free to dislike the origin, of course, but, again, I strongly disagree on the forced stupidity of the DN.

And if no one thought Bhelen was competent, they'd kill/marginalize him and have someone else be the lead Aeducan. This is Orzammar, after all. They hardly feel compelled to just respect people because of their position if they haven't deserved it.

[Ryzaki]

I never said Bhelen wasn't competent. But the whole thing about DP is that they're very cutthroat. I find the belief that the PC never at all planned for so such an eventuality to be stretching it.
The PC sees signs of Bhelen's dislike for Trian and his position in the origin. And I'm supposed to believe that the PC is only noticing this now? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[The Ethereal Writer]

the thing about people though is that they aren't predictable. No one person can claim to know what another is thinking. That's like saying Morrigan really wants to try being a lesbian. How would you know? You don't. Orzammar is a strange place, even stranger by the dwarves who inhabit it. So it's impossible to think that a family member would kill off the son of the king and put another Aeducan on the throne. It makes sense, it's what I would expect, but people aren't predictable.



When did you write that? In this forum recently? or somewhere else. Also, how do you know Trian has been fed paranoid thoughts for weeks now? Was that mentioned somewhere in the DNO if you take a specific dialogue route? I don't remember seeing that.



Like I said before though, Trian's abrasiveness is how he shows his love for his brothers. Remember The Gauntlet? Trian's spectral remnant says that they both should've suspected Bhelen, and if I recall correctly he never truly thought the worst of the DN. Though I'll play the DN again to be sure.

[The Ethereal Writer]

Ryzaki wrote...

I never said Bhelen wasn't competent. But the whole thing about DP is that they're very cutthroat. I find the belief that the PC never at all planned for so such an eventuality to be stretching it.
The PC sees signs of Bhelen's dislike for Trian and his position in the origin. And I'm supposed to believe that the PC is only noticing this now? 

lyrium addling? XD

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer, 25 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

I never said Bhelen wasn't competent. But the whole thing about DP is that they're very cutthroat. I find the belief that the PC never at all planned for so such an eventuality to be stretching it.
The PC sees signs of Bhelen's dislike for Trian and his position in the origin. And I'm supposed to believe that the PC is only noticing this now? 

It's stretching it that the DN doesn't have an eventuality for 'Bhelen tried to convince me to kill Trian and when I said no he hired casteless mercenaries to kill him within a day and two witnesses claim I did it plus I have his ring' or 'Bhelen tried to convince me to kill Trian and I did because he wouldn't back down and two witnesses claim I did it plus I have his ring'? What, exactly, do you feel that the properly savvy DN should have done?

And Bhelen's dislike of Trian is an interesting concept. Two of the VO notes in his 'kill Trian' conversation is "Trian has left, and the speaker is free to express his opinions of him. He's tired of Trian and it should show" and "Speaker seems very weary of his elder brother's antics and has lost any respect he once had for him." To me, this indicates that it's a recent thing/Bhelen's passing it off as a recent thing. I don't think for one minute that Bhelen letting you see he's fed up with Trian is an accident. If Bhelen appears devoted to Trian and has been his lackey for awhile then would you take him at all seriously when he 'warns' you? This way, he's really claiming that Trian's becoming overbearing and his decision about killing you is what helped change Bhelen's mind.

For all we know, the day the origin starts or very shortly before it is when Bhelen first began to show the DN that he wasn't fond of Trian. I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect Bhelen to be able to pretend to like somebody he doesn't (real people do this all the time) so why does a competent DN HAVE to know that Bhelen really hates him? And even if they do, there's a diffrence between hating and sucking up to someone more important than you and actively plotting to kill you. If you realized that Bhelen wanted Trian dead then you could deduce in the 'Kill Trian' conversation that Bhelen might just want Trian dead and be making **** up to convince you to do it but how could you have prevented Trian from dying? Well, besides killing Bhelen where he stood but good luck getting away with that.

[Ryzaki]

For all we know is the key in that. Its personal interpretation.

[The Ethereal Writer]

Well... you know whose fault it really is? Endrin's. He protected the Aeducan name rather than his innocent son. Even if you kill Trian, in a sense you're innocent because Bhelen's a douche to put it simply.



But if there was the option to say, "Bhelen, stop trying to get us both out of the way", I would think you could call a Proving match on him or tell Endrin what's really happening in the family. Or hell, even Trian. Tell Trian. I'll continue to say this though. Trian's abrasive attitude is his way of showing love. He means well, he just has a ****ty way of showing it.

[The Ethereal Writer]

oh and ryzaki? nice avatar image thingy dude. looks sick. any particular manga or just a drawing of your own?

[Sarah1281]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...

the thing about people though is that they aren't predictable. No one person can claim to know what another is thinking. That's like saying Morrigan really wants to try being a lesbian. How would you know? You don't. Orzammar is a strange place, even stranger by the dwarves who inhabit it. So it's impossible to think that a family member would kill off the son of the king and put another Aeducan on the throne. It makes sense, it's what I would expect, but people aren't predictable.

When did you write that? In this forum recently? or somewhere else. Also, how do you know Trian has been fed paranoid thoughts for weeks now? Was that mentioned somewhere in the DNO if you take a specific dialogue route? I don't remember seeing that.

Like I said before though, Trian's abrasiveness is how he shows his love for his brothers. Remember The Gauntlet? Trian's spectral remnant says that they both should've suspected Bhelen, and if I recall correctly he never truly thought the worst of the DN. Though I'll play the DN again to be sure.

No, people aren't always predictable. Nobles in Orzammar are ruthless or they get killed (unless they're serving someone else's needs like Lord Helmi basically allowing his mother control but letting her retire). Nobles in House Aeducan are all very eager to line up behind Bhelen. I don't know what Morrigan and lesbianism has to do with this. Some things can be predicted. The house that has managed to stay on the throne for nine successive generations before Bhelen finds someone incompetent, they're going to die. These people aren't that sentimental. Some things you can predict. Orzammar nobles acting like Orzammar nobles is one of them.

I wrote it here awhile ago. It's implied that he is, I feel. Look at his journal. It explains all about how Bhelen set him up with the messenger to worsen his relation with the DN and Trian acts like he does things like this all the time. Trian refuses to get through the first conversation with you without either insulting you or Gorim. Bhelen's been hanging around him for weeks and manages to convince him that you're out to kill him. When he confronts you, he doesn't ask if it's true, really, he expects it to be. Do you think that if Bhelen weren't slowly turning him against you he'd be so positive, especially if you're playing a DN that is kind and respectful to him?

I don't think Trian shows his love through his abrasiveness. He may love you but it's really his jealousy that's making him so abrasive. And his lack of people skills. Plus, the guardian was not really Trian. The guardian can show people still alive (Jowan, Tamlen, Shianni, Leske) and if you ask Tamlen, he'll admit he's not really Tamlen. Also, he never says anything about not thinking the worst of you.

Trian Dialogue One
Bhelen: "Atrast vala, big sister! How surprising to run into you out among the common folk." (Speaker is teasing his sibling; line is read with exaggerated cheer. Atrast vala=a-TRAST VA-la, hello, greetings)
Trian: "Especially since duty requires that you attend our king father at the feast today." (This is said accusingly, with a harsh edge.)
Trian: "Have you so little respect for him to disregard his wishes on a day set aside for you?" (This line is said with a great deal of disapproval and contempt, almost.)
Gorim: "Lord Harrowmont told me we wouldn't be needed for hours at least--" (The speaker is defending his superior from certain accusations.)
Trian: "Silence! If I want the opinion of my sibling's second, I will ask for it." (This is spoken harshly, with slight condescendation because he is speaking to someone of a lesser station.)
Gorim: "Yes, your Highness." (Subdued, apologetic.)

1. Don't speak to Gorim like that.
Trian: "I speak to lower houses and castes as they should be spoken to. Now do as I say." (Commanding and condescending; spoken to someone of a lesser station.)
1a. All right, I'm going. *Jump to Trian's response in line 2 below*
1b. Keep barking orders. I'm sure I'll care someday. *Jump to Trian's response in line 3 below*
1c. Bhelen, you want to jump in here? *Jump to Bhelen's response in line 4 below*

2. I will go to the feast right now, Trian. (SET: Trian_Understanding)
(IF: Female) Trian: "Perhaps you were right, Bhelen, when you said our sister wasn't all useless breeding flesh." (The speaker is being rather disdainful of sibling.)
(IF: Male) Trian: "Perhaps you were right, Bhelen, when you said our brother wasn't entirely without regard for his duty and station." (The speaker is being rather disdainful of sibling.)
Trian: "I'll be along later to toast your command."
Trian: "Come, Bhelen." (Brusquely, as though he were
speaking to a dog or some other insignificant pet.)
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim: "..." (A sigh
or some other sound that signals defeat and weariness.) *Go to
tree 2*
Gorim: "That was fun. Nothing like being talked down
to by the next king." (Pure sarcasm. Some scorn directed at 'the next
king.') *Go to tree 2*

3. I go where I want, when I want, Trian.
Trian: "Your lack of a sense of duty to your house is obvious. I can't imagine why you are receiving a commission." (The speaker is being rather disdainful of sibling.)
Trian: "I expect after tomorrow I'll spend much time apologizing to the heads of the noble houses for the deaths of their children under your incompetent command." (This should be said coldly and quietly, in a scornful tone.)
Bhelen: "That's a bit harsh, isn't it, Trian?" (The speaker is trying to diffuse the tension between two siblings in this line. He is trying to be respectful of his older brother, but doesn't want to incur his wrath either.)
Trian: "As heir to the throne, it is my duty to impart wisdom and judgment upon those who need it." (Sanctimonious and preachy. Sounds self-important when he starts talking about how, as heir to the throne, it is his duty to boss people around.)
Trian: "Now then, you, get to the feast!" (He's being extremely bossy. His command is final and will brook no argument.) *Go to tree 1*

4. Bhelen, help me out here.
Bhelen: "You're on your own. I've been dealing with him all afternoon." (Slightly apologetic, perhaps some nervous laughter. The speaker is trying to make light of the situation.)
Trian: "What exactly is that supposed to mean, little brother?" (The speaker is trying to make his little brother defend his statement. His voice should sound slightly dangerous, slightly threatening.)
Bhelen: "Nothing, Trian. I've been having a great time. The speech you gave to the legless boy about hard work and making something of himself was fantastic..." (Speaker is back-pedaling like crazy, but with just a hint of sarcasm. He said something out of line and now must smooth things over with Trian before Trian does something nasty to him.)
Trian: "As heir to the throne, it is my duty to impart
wisdom and judgment upon those who need it." (Sanctimonious and preachy.
Sounds self-important when he starts talking about how, as heir to the
throne, it is his duty to boss people around.)
Trian:
"Now then, you, get to the feast!" (He's being extremely bossy. His
command is final and will brook no argument.) *Go to tree 1*


TREE 1
1. Yes, brother.
Trian: "That's my proper, dutiful sister/brother." (Speaker is showing some grudging approval of his sibling.)
Trian: "I'll be along later to toast your command."
Trian: "Come, Bhelen." (Brusquely, as though he were speaking to a dog or some other insignificant pet.)
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim: "..." (A sigh or some other sound that signals defeat and weariness.) *Go to tree 2*
Gorim: "That was fun. Nothing like being talked down to by the next king." (Pure sarcasm. Some scorn directed at 'the next king.') *Go to tree 2*

2. I'll go when I'm ready.
Trian: "Stubborn, aren't you? When I'm king, I will help you get over that." (Speaker sounds extremely disapproving of his sibling. When he speaks about becoming king, he should sound a little smug, perhaps even a little threatening.)
Trian: "Come, Bhelen."
(Brusquely, as though he were speaking to a dog or some other
insignificant pet.)
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim:
"..." (A sigh or some other sound that signals defeat and weariness.) *Go
to tree 2*
Gorim: "That was fun. Nothing like being talked
down to by the next king." (Pure sarcasm. Some scorn directed at 'the
next king.') *Go to tree 2*

3. It's cute how you think you can order me around.
Trian: "I'd advise you to watch that tongue, dear
sibling. Father will not live forever." (Speaker is trying to not show
his anger, but is obviously threatening his sibling.)
Trian: "Come, Bhelen."
(Brusquely, as though he were speaking to a dog or some other
insignificant pet.)


(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim:
"..." (A sigh or some other sound that signals defeat and weariness.) *Go


to tree 2*


Gorim: "That was fun. Nothing like being talked
down to by the next king." (Pure sarcasm. Some scorn directed at 'the
next king.') *Go to tree 2*

4. Kiss my ass, Trian.
Trian: "I'd advise you to watch that tongue, dear sibling. Father will not live forever." (Speaker is trying to not show his anger, but is obviously threatening his sibling.)
Trian: "Come, Bhelen."
(Brusquely, as though he were speaking to a dog or some other
insignificant pet.)

(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim:
"..." (A sigh or some other sound that signals defeat and weariness.) *Go

to tree 2*

Gorim: "That was fun. Nothing like being talked
down to by the next king." (Pure sarcasm. Some scorn directed at 'the
next king.') *Go to tree 2*

TREE 2
1. Ignore him. It's my day, not his.
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim: "Of course, my lady/lord." (Respectful, deferential) *End dialogue*
Gorim: "That it is. Let's get back to enjoying it, shall we?" (Speaker is just trying to get on with his business, and is ready to put an unpleasant incident behind him.) *End dialogue*

2. He means well. (SET: Trian_Understanding)
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim:
"Of course, my lady/lord." (Respectful, deferential) *End
dialogue*
Gorim: "You always defend him. I wish I had your understanding..." (Respectufl and almost in awe) *End
dialogue*

3. Perhaps becoming king will calm Trian.
(IF: Gorim_Humbled) Gorim:
"Of course, my lady/lord." (Respectful, deferential) *End
dialogue*
Gorim: "We can only hope. Perhaps we should get going?" (Speaker is just trying to get on with his business, and is ready to put
an unpleasant incident behind him.) *End dialogue*

(IF: Noble_Hunters_Recommended) 4. I didn't even get to tell him about the pretty girls.
Gorim: "Somehow I think Trian isn't in the mood for that sort of thing right now... or ever. Shall we?" (Speaker is making fun about Trian behind his back, implying that Trian does not have a sense of humour.) *End dialogue*

5. He's got to be alive to be king.
Gorim: "Perhaps this isn't the best place for that sort of talk. Shall we?" (The speaker is replying to a character who has just suggested that Trian may be assasinated before he becomes king. Gorim does not want to be caught speaking of such things, and would sound a little cautious, and try to change the subject quickly.) *End dialogue*

Trian Talk Two (Note: Knife doesn't trigger properly)
Trian: "So, you are a commander now. In name at least." (Confrontational, challenging. The speaker is questioning his sibling's fitness to be a commander of the armies.)
--------------------------------------
(IF: Has_Knife_Equipped)
Trian: "Wait--what's that you're wearing? That dagger?" (Surprise, curiousity, a little foreboding.)
1. Father wants to see you, Trian.
Trian: "Of course he does. We must discuss strategy
before tomorrow's battle." (Self-important, a little smug.)
Trian:
"Bhelen, stay here and stroke the new commander's conceit if you like,
but then get to bed." (Extremely patronizing and dismissive. As though
he was speaking to a
child or something) *Go to tree 1*
2. A gift, made for me by a loyal subject.
Trian: "I told that man not to presume to bribe House Aeducan. If your favor is bought so cheaply, it is your own shame." (Speaker is being extremely critical of sibling's actions.)
Trian: "You should be attending our father at today's feast, not gossiping with second-rate smiths!" (Anger, disapproval, because the speaker knows what the dagger means: that his sibling has taken a bribe from a smith. He feels it reflects badly on the family.)
2a. Father wants to see you, Trian. *Go to line 1*
2b. You two were not at the feast. *Go to No_Knife, line 2*
2c. Bhelen, how was your day? *Go to No_Knife, line 3*

3. A gift you were supposed to tell me about.
Trian: "I told that man not to presume to bribe House
Aeducan. If your favor is bought so cheaply, it is your own shame."
(Speaker is being extremely critical of sibling's actions.)
Trian:
"You should be attending our father at today's feast, not gossiping
with second-rate smiths!" (Anger, disapproval, because the speaker knows
what the dagger means: that his sibling has taken a bribe from a smith.
He feels it reflects badly on the family.)
3a. Father wants to see you, Trian. *Go to line 1*
3b. You two were not at the
feast. *Go to No_Knife, line 2*
3c. Bhelen, how was your day? *Go to No_Knife, line 3*

4. It's nothing important.
Trian:
"You should be attending our father at today's feast, not gossiping
with second-rate smiths!" (Anger, disapproval, because the speaker knows
what the dagger means: that his sibling has taken a bribe from a smith.
He feels it reflects badly on the family.)
3a.
Father wants to see you, Trian. *Go to line 1*

3b. You two were not at the
feast. *Go to No_Knife, line 2*

3c. Bhelen, how was your day? *Go to No_Knife, line 3*
-----------------------------------
(IF: No_Knife)

Trian: "Shouldn't you be attending our king father?" (Impatience. Speaker is trying to get his bothersome sibling to leave him alone.)
1. Father wants to see you, Trian.  *Go to line 3a*

2. You two were not at the feast.
Trian: "The world does not stop and start with your meager achievements. Not even tonight." (Speaker is being condescending and dismissive of his sibling.)
Trian: "Now, do you have some purpose in bothering us?" (Impatient.)
2a. Father wants you. *Go to line 3a*
2b. Father is worried you're too much of an ass to be prince. *Go to line 3b*

3. Bhelen, how was your day?
Bhelen: "Interesting. I would have been at the feast, but Trian had need of me..." (A little weary, but a neutral tone.)
Trian: "The world does not stop and start with your
meager achievements. Not even tonight." (Speaker is being condescending
and dismissive of his sibling.)
Trian: "Now, do you
have some purpose in bothering us?" (Impatient.)
3a. Father wants
you.
Trian: "Of course he does. We must discuss strategy before tomorrow's battle." (Self-important, a little smug.)
Trian: "Bhelen, stay here and stroke the new commander's conceit if you like, but then get to bed." (Extremely patronizing and dismissive. As though he was speaking to a
child or something) *Go to tree 1*
3b. Father is worried you're too much of an ass to be prince.
Trian: "You push your luck." (Scornful)
Trian: "Bhelen, get to bed. We have a big day tomorrow. I will see what our father wishes from his heir." (Extremely patronizing and dismissive. As though he was speaking to a child or something) *Go to tree 1*
 

TRIAN MURDER SCENE (IF YOU KILL HIM YOURSELF)

Trian: "'Atrast vala, Sister/Brother." (VO: cold. "Atrast vala"= a-TRAST VA-la.  Hello, greetings.)

1. Where are the others?
Trian: "They will arrive soon enough. I wanted to see you first, to look into your treacherous eyes and tell you I know what you planned." (VO: Some disappointment and sadness, quite a bit of bitterness.)

1a. Where's your signet ring, Trian? *Go to tree #1*

1b. And what was that?
Trian: "Do you think I am blind?" (VO: Anger, hostility)
Trian: "I am the prince of Orzammar. I have eyes and ears everywhere!" (VO: Anger. Says this in a "are you stupid?" sort of way, but really dramatic.)
1b-1: I don't know what you're talking about. *Go to Trian's response in tree #2, line 5*
1b-2: What is it you think you know?
Trian: "Do you think I fear to name your treachery?" (VO: Challenging, scornful) *Go to tree #2*
1b-3: I have eyes and ears of my own.
Trian: "And do they tell you I am weak and ripe to be displaced? That I will be easily moved aside so you can sit on Father's throne?" (VO: Anger and hostility; the speaker can also sound a little hurt at being betrayed)
1b-3a : Yes.
Trian: "Then they are fools, and you have been used." (VO: This should be a blunt declaration. He really believes this statement.) *Go to tree 3*
1b-3b: You've got it wrong, Trian. *Go to Trian's response in tree #2, line 5*
1b-3c: How dare you accuse me. *Go to Trian's response in tree #2, line 5*
1b-3d: Shut up and fight me.
Trian: "I am your prince. I will not fight you." (VO: Haughty and superior) *Go to tree 3*

1c. I'm going to kill you, Trian.
Trian: "So you admit your foul intentions? Brazen. But my men outnumber yours." (VO: This should be said with a lot of hostility. Sneering would be nice.) *Go to tree 3*

2. Hello, Trian.
Trian: "I'm here. I am not, however, unaware or outnumbered." (VO: Some disappointment and sadness, quite a
bit of bitterness.)
Trian: "Disappointed?"

2a. I'm going to kill you, Trian.
Trian: "So you admit your foul intentions? Brazen. But my men outnumber yours." (VO: This should be said with a lot of hostility. Sneering would be nice.) *Go to tree 3*

2b. What are you talking about?
Trian: "Do you think I fear to name your treachery?" (VO: Challenging, scornful) *Go to tree #2*

2c. Where's your signet ring, Trian? *Go to tree #1*

2d. You're a schemer, Trian, but I'm better than you.
Trian: "So you admit to scheming against me?" (VO: Speaker says this with a note of triumph, because his sibling has admitted that he was scheming) *Go to tree #2*

3. You and I need to speak. Alone.
Trian: "Anything you have to say can be said here, in front of our men." (VO: Serious, challenging.)

3a. Where's your signet ring, Trian? *Go to tree #1*

3b. You're a schemer, Trian, but I'm better than you.
Trian: "So you
admit to scheming against me?" (VO: Speaker says this with a note of
triumph, because his sibling has admitted that he was scheming) *Go
to tree #2*

3c. I'm going to kill you, Trian.
Trian: "So you admit your foul intentions? Brazen. But my men outnumber yours." (VO: This should be said with a lot of hostility. Sneering would be nice.) *Go to tree 3*

3d. You wish me to expose your plotting against me?
Trian: "You dare
accuse me of your own treachery?" (VO: Speaker is indignant and insulted
by the gall of his treacherous sibling.) *Go to tree 2*

4. You're brave to come here without more men.
Trian: "Why? Is there a reason I should fear my own kin?" (VO: Some disappointment and sadness, quite a bit of bitterness.)

4a. Where's your signet ring, Trian? *Go to tree #1*

4b. You're a schemer, Trian, but I'm better than you.
Trian: "So you
admit to scheming against me?" (VO: Speaker says this with a note of
triumph, because his sibling has admitted that he was scheming) *Go

to tree #2*

4c. I'm going to kill you, Trian.
Trian: "So you admit your foul intentions? Brazen. But my men outnumber yours." (VO: This should be said with a lot of hostility. Sneering would be nice.) *Go to tree 3*

4d. No, of course not. *Go to Trian's response in line 1b above*


TREE #1 -- "Where's your signet ring, Trian?"
Trian: "I... didn't wear it today. I didn't wish to risk losing it in battle." (VO: Speaker is caught off guard and is hurriedly trying to come up with an excuse for not having his ring.)

1. Likely story.
Trian: "Don't attempt to cast your dark shadows back on me." (VO: Speaker is insulted and indignant) *Go to tree 2*

2. You gave it to mercenaries so they could steal the shield.
Trian: "You dare accuse me of your own treachery?" (VO: Speaker is indignant and insulted by the gall of his treacherous sibling.) *Go to tree 2*

3. I am going to kill you, Trian.
Trian: "So you admit your foul intentions? Brazen. But my men outnumber yours." (VO: This should be said with a lot of hostility. Sneering would be nice.) *Go to tree 3*


TREE #2 -- "Do you think I fear to name your treachery?"
Trian: "You have plotted to murder me, so you could take my place as heir." (VO: Speaker says this accusingly, with a lot of scorn.)
Trian: "You convinced Bhelen to help take my men and me by surprise." (VO: Speaker says this accusingly, with a lot of scorn.)
Trian: "Do you deny it?" (VO: Challenging.)

1. You do have to admit it was a good plan.
Trian: "Throwing your and our family's honor in the fire of jealousy and power was a good idea?" (VO: Speaker expresses disapproval and disbelief at sibling's idiocy.)
Trian: "I am your prince and your elder brother! Every tradition, everything that makes us who we are, demands your loyalty to me!" (VO: Superior, commanding, haughty)*Go to tree 3*

2. It's just politics.
Trian: "Is that what you think this is? Some game?" (VO: Speaker expresses disapproval and disbelief at sibling's idiocy.)
Trian: "I am your prince and your elder brother! Every tradition, everything that makes us who we are, demands your loyalty to me!" (VO: Superior, commanding, haughty) *Go to tree 3*

3. You have no right to judge me, Trian.
Trian: "I have every right to judge you." (VO: Judgmental, disapproving.)
Trian: "I am your prince and your elder brother! Every tradition, everything that makes us who we are, demands your loyalty to me!" (VO: Superior, commanding, haughty) *Go to tree 3*

4. I'm just surprised you still came.
Trian: "I am a better warrior than you will ever be, girl/boy." (VO: Sneering, speaker is talking down to his sibling)
Trian: "Still, I will not give you the glory you so desire." (VO: Haughty, superior)
Trian: "I am your prince. I will not fight you." *Go to tree 3*

5. It's not true.
Trian: "Just stop. You have gone too far this time."
(IF: Dace_QuestComplete) Trian: "Selling your favor to Lord Dace, I could overlook." (VO: Scornful and sneering)
(IF: Provings_Fought) Trian: "Your grandstanding at the Provings, I could overlook." (VO: Scornful and sneering)
(IF: Dace_Beaten) Trian: "You showing off at the expense of elderly Lord Dace, I could overlook." (VO: Scornful and sneering)
(^all of above lines lead to:)
Trian: "That the nobles love you when you have accomplished nothing... this I have learned to forgive." (VO: Scornful and sneering)
Trian: "I know I will never be loved in Orzammar, but I will rule. Nothing, not even treacherous kin, will stop me from claiming my right." (VO: Speaker may be a little sad that he'll never be loved, but he believes he can be the strongest ruler of his people and this declaration should reflect his belief.) *Go to tree 3*


TREE #3  -- "Throw down your weapons and confess."
Trian: "You and your companions will throw down your weapons, confess your treason, and be tried in front of the Assembly." (VO: Speaker is commanding here, as though he does not expect argument.)

1. We will do no such thing.
Trian: "Then you will die here." (VO: Blunt declaration. No remorse.)
Trian: "May the Stone reject your unworthy, treacherous body." (VO: Absolute scorn, almost spitting. "The Stone" is said with a religious connotation -- may God reject you.)
Trian: "Kill the traitors!" (VO: This is a command to attack.) *End dialogue*

2. So arrogant, even at the end.
Trian: "It will be your end, Sister/Brother." (VO: Blunt declaration. No remorse.)
Trian: "May the Stone reject your unworthy, treacherous body." (VO: Absolute scorn, almost spitting. "The Stone" is said with a religious connotation -- may God reject you.)
Trian: "Kill the traitors!" (VO: This is a command to attack.) *End dialogue*

3. You're an idiot. *Attack*
Trian: "Kill the traitors!" (VO: This is a command to attack.) *End dialogue*

4. Very well, we surrender.
Gorim: "Are you sure you want to do this, my lady/lord?" (VO: Hesitant, unsure of what to do, respectful)

4a: It is the only way.
Scout: "Never! A warrior does not surrender meekly! Attack!" (VO: This should be said loudly, with a lot of conviction. Almost crazed.)
Trian: "Kill the traitors!" (VO: This is a command to attack.) *End dialogue*

4b. Now--while they're distracted. Attack!
Trian: "Kill the traitors!" (VO: This is a command to attack.) *End dialogue*

Guardian

(UPON SEEING TRIAN)
Trian: "Greetings, my exiled sister/brother." (VO: Stern, solemn. With a bit of a sneer.)
Trian: "I would lament your fate, but why should I? You have been cast out to walk the surface, whereas I... hmph..." (VO: Sneering.)

(IF PC KILLED TRIAN)
Trian: "You allowed Bhelen to make you his lackey. Are you proud of what you've done?" (VO: Sneering, contemptuous, angry)

1. "Of course not."
Trian: "I know it has been hard for you. You were called kinslayer, exiled." (VO: Voice softens, sympathetic.)
1a. (IF PC SAID YES TO GUARDIAN)
Trian: "My sister/brother, I know you are haunted by shame and regret. Let the past stay in the past." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Take this, and use it well. I give you this... and my blessing." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)
1b. (IF PC SAID NO TO GUARDIAN)
Trian: "But the betrayals of Orzammar do not weigh down your steps. You have not faltered, and I am proud of you." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Take this, and use it well. I give you this... and my blessing." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)
1c. (IF PC DID NOT ANSWER GUARDIAN)
Trian: "You said nothing to the Guardian. Do you feel nothing about your eldest brother's betrayal and death? Or about your own betrayal?" (VO: A little curious, but sounds a little hurt as well.)
Trian: "There is no shame in acknowledging the mistakes of the past. We must face them, before we move on." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Ah, but I should not confuse you. You have a long path ahead of you. I hope you will be ready." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)

2. "I don't have to answer you. You're not my brother."
Trian: "I am the brother you remember. The one you have seen in your dreams these past months." (VO: Voice softens. Sympathetic.)
(Rest of dialogue leads back to 1a or 1b or 1c depending on what you said to the guardian.)

3. "Are you trying to make me regret my actions, spirit?"
Trian: "Nay, you have made your feelings clear on the matter." (VO: Voice softens, sympathetic.)
(Rest of dialogue leads back to 1a or 1b or 1c, depending on if you said yes or no or nothing to guardian.)

(IF PC DID NOT KILL TRIAN)
Trian: "But I am too hard on you. Bhelen made fools of us both. Were I a spectator, I would applaud him for his clever manipulations." (VO: Sighing, sad, regretful.)
Trian: "However, I find it hard for me to remain... unbiased in this regard." (VO: Sighing, sad, regretful.)

1. "I am sorry for what I did."
1a. (IF PC SAID YES TO GUARDIAN)
Trian: "My sister/brother, I know you are haunted by shame and regret. Let the past stay in the past." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Take this, and use it well. I give you this... and my blessing." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)
1b. (IF PC SAID NO TO GUARDIAN)
Trian: "But the betrayals of Orzammar do not weigh down your steps. You have not faltered, and I am proud of you." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Take this, and use it well. I give you this... and my blessing." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)
1c. (IF PC DID NOT ANSWER GUARDIAN)
Trian: "You said nothing to the Guardian. Do you feel nothing about your eldest brother's betrayal and death? Or about your own betrayal?" (VO: A little curious, but sounds a little hurt as well.)
Trian: "There is no shame in acknowledging the mistakes of the past. We must face them, before we move on." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Ah, but I should not confuse you. You have a long path ahead of you. I hope you will be ready." (VO: A little sad, but kindly, forgiving.)
Trian: "Remember me." (VO: Sad, wistful.)

2. "I should never have trusted Bhelen."
(Answers the same as 1a, 1b, 1c, depending on what you said to guardian)

3." Bhelen betrayed us both. It was not my fault."
(Answers the same as 1a, 1b, 1c, depending on what you said to guardian)

4. "That is what you say, but you are not Trian."
Trian: "I am the brother you remember. The one you have seen in your dreams these past months." (VO: Voice softens. Sympathetic.)
(Rest of dialogue leads back to 1a, 1b, 1c depending on what you said to guardian)

[Sarah1281]

For all we know is the key in that. Its personal interpretation.

Please don't dismiss everything I said with 'Oh, well that's your opinion.' Of COURSE it is. The game does not tell you what happens before it starts on that front. That is my opinion and I've explained why I think so.

Well... you know whose fault it really is? Endrin's. He protected the Aeducan name rather than his innocent son. Even if you kill Trian, in a sense you're innocent because Bhelen's a douche to put it simply.

In no sense are you innocent if you kill Trian. Why would you be? Regardless of who may have said or done what beforehand, you still are the one to commit fratricde. And yes, I do think Endrin acted horribly. If nothing else, if he's going to have the child he believes innocent killed to keep the throne, I would appreciate if he didn't change his mind at the last moment and make your exile pointless.

But if there was the option to say, "Bhelen, stop trying to get us both out of the way", I would think you could call a Proving match on him or tell Endrin what's really happening in the family. Or hell, even Trian. Tell Trian. I'll continue to say this though. Trian's abrasive attitude is his way of showing love. He means well, he just has a ****ty way of showing it.

You know, I REALLY could have sworn I addressed why a man who will let his child that his note says he believes is innocent regardless of if they are die a horrible painful death in the Deep Roads to avoid a scandal will not allow them to expose their dirty laundry and cause a scandal by fighting a Proving on the matter. Endrin probably has some idea of what's going on. Note, when you run into Duncan and tell him what happened "I see. The brutal intrigue of the dwarven court continues, then. Your father intimated as much." (sadness, concern)

[Ryzaki]

Did I dismiss what you said? I'm sorry you feel that way. That wasn't my intention. What I meant to say was frankly I don't buy it. I'm not saying it's not true for your PC but for mine? I don't buy it. Trian didn't suddenly develope into a douche in a few months Bhelen's resentment didn't suddenly show up in a month and the PC didn't get in their position by not paying attention to what's going around them.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .

[The Ethereal Writer]

that wasn't the guardian. It's a part of the person's soul. The guardian is just able to make that feeling, sentiment, whatever you call it manifest itself. There's a saying that goes like this...



"Everyone carries a bit of everyone they know inside of themselves"



We each leave our mark on another person. a bit of our soul, a bit of our attitude, a bit of who we are. The Guardian is able to give form to the one point in the Warden's life that they feel regret and sorrow for the most

[The Ethereal Writer]

In a sense meaning how could you know if you're oblivious to what's going on. Ignorance is bliss so they may say, but no one would blame you for your actions. A soul of innocence but a man guilty of fratricide

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Did I dismiss what you said? I'm sorry you feel that way. That wasn't my intention. What I meant to say was frankly I don't buy it. I'm not saying it's not true for your PC but for mine? I don't buy it.

What don't you buy?  That Bhelen could pretend to like someone he didn't? I've seen many a teenage girl pull that one off. That Bhelen might have just started to act otherwise the day the origin started? That's not my belief either. I think he was slowly doing it over several weeks...which doesn't say anything about my PC but how I view the rest of the Aeducans. That a DN wouldn't necessarily have to see Bhelen disliking Trian (no matter when he figured it out) as Bhelen actively plotting against Trian before he clues you in? Sure, why not? As it happens, my main DN was suspicious of Bhelen's 'kill Trian!' talk but simply didn't have time in the less-than-a-day before Trian died to try and do anything about it.