57 réponses à ce sujet

[JRKnight]

Ok, guess the question is:  Are people just that inferior of marksmen, or how many people tried to use the M-8 like some glorified automatic rifle (LMG)?

As someone who's used the M-8 Avenger pretty damn extensively, probably more so then any other service rifle in the game; including the M-96 and the M-76. In the right hands its a good weapon, especially on intense Insanity playthroughs.  Yes, I agree with the fact that the damage per round (10.8 last I checked) could be boosted but still balanced so that there remains a distinction between the assault rifles and battle rifles.  If I had to guess somewhere around 14.0 to 18.0.

I've done a couple of Insanity playthroughs (Import / Soldier / Rifleman setup) while using the M8 as my primary rifle.  With it I don't sacrific as much as I would if I grabbed one of the other rifles, to hell with damage.  While still retaining the ablities to lay down suppressing fire my squad, and the capacity to launch a round right through the center of mercs' skull at 40+ meters.  Tha'ts actually fact and on the Xbox 360 no less.

Modifié par JRKnight, 27 octobre 2010 - 05:47 .

[ashwind]

JRKnight wrote...

Ok, guess the question is:  Are people just that inferior of marksmen, or how many people tried to use the M-8 like some glorified automatic rifle (LMG)?

As someone who's used the M-8 Avenger pretty damn extensively, probably more so then any other service rifle in the game; including the M-96 and the M-76. In the right hands its a good weapon, especially on intense Insanity playthroughs.  Yes, I agree with the fact that the damage per round (10.8 last I checked) could be boosted but still balanced so that there remains a distinction between the assault rifles and battle rifles.  If I had to guess somewhere around 14.0 to 18.0.

I've done a couple of Insanity playthroughs (Import / Soldier / Rifleman setup) while using the M8 as my primary rifle.  With it I don't sacrific as much as I would if I grabbed one of the other rifles, to hell with damage.  While still retaining the ablities to lay down suppressing fire my squad, and the capacity to launch a round right through the center of mercs' skull at 40+ meters.  Tha'ts actually fact and on the Xbox 360 no less.

What exactly do you sacrifice by not choosing the M8? Being such a great marksmen, ammo should not be a problem right? Suppressing fire for the squad!? Enemies should be focusing on you most of the time.. 

Nobody (at least not me) is saying that the M8 should be upgraded to match the Mattock/Revenant or even close to that extend. A slight boost in damage, accuracy or even just stopping power would be sufficient.

As it is now, it has its uses - to make the game more challenging.

[JaegerBane]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Every RPG has crappy starting weapons that you cant wait to get rid of. Perhaps another AR is necessary? A mini-revenant?

This. I don't necessarily mind that the Avenger plays the thankless role of being the bog-standard assault rifle in this game - what grinds my gears is that, if you want an actual assault rifle rather than a precision battle rifle or an autocannon, you're stuck with said bog-standard assault rifle. There just isn't anything the fills the same role, but better, in the way there's things like the GPS and the Widow to boost their basic cousins.

Sure, there's the Collector Assault Rifle, but it's dps is somewhat uninspiring, it's clip is a bit low and it's available to just those whp purchased the CE. The Geth Pulse Rifle is such a weird weapon, with variable rates of fire and SMG-like characteristics, that it misses the point of having a basic rifle that can handle virtually any enemy or situation.

Bring back the Spectre AR. Or something like it - something analogous to the Pulse Rifle from Aliens. Big clip, reasonable damage and accurate.... a straight Avenger upgrade.

[JaegerBane]

JRKnight wrote...

Ok, guess the question is:  Are people just that inferior of marksmen, or how many people tried to use the M-8 like some glorified automatic rifle (LMG)?

As someone who's used the M-8 Avenger pretty damn extensively, probably more so then any other service rifle in the game; including the M-96 and the M-76. In the right hands its a good weapon, especially on intense Insanity playthroughs.  Yes, I agree with the fact that the damage per round (10.8 last I checked) could be boosted but still balanced so that there remains a distinction between the assault rifles and battle rifles.  If I had to guess somewhere around 14.0 to 18.0.

I've done a couple of Insanity playthroughs (Import / Soldier / Rifleman setup) while using the M8 as my primary rifle.  With it I don't sacrific as much as I would if I grabbed one of the other rifles, to hell with damage.  While still retaining the ablities to lay down suppressing fire my squad, and the capacity to launch a round right through the center of mercs' skull at 40+ meters.  Tha'ts actually fact and on the Xbox 360 no less.

This is a redundant argument. The reason why people are annoyed with it isn't because they 'inferior marksmen' or any of that rubbish. It's because it's DPS is lower than any other automatic weapon in the game, and it doesn't have enough of a clip to compensate. You answered your own question.

[TevinterMagister]

I'm in the middle of my Adept run, and picked AR bonus, call me crazy but I actually prefer the Avenger over Vindicator and Mattock. I'm very aware of the the shortcomings of the Avenger, but it simply feels right, the looks, sound fx and generous ammo supply, this is on hardcore difficulty btw.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

I'm in the middle of my Adept run, and picked AR bonus, call me crazy but I actually prefer the Avenger over Vindicator and Mattock. I'm very aware of the the shortcomings of the Avenger, but it simply feels right, the looks, sound fx and generous ammo supply, this is on hardcore difficulty btw.

Those playing Adept are (usually) not the ones with an DPS obsession. Biotics are fun and cool to use; if you're fond of the Avenger go for it - it isn't that bad; its a nice defense stripper and you won't run out of ammo. Plus it has personality and that counts for something too.

[JRKnight]

ashwind wrote...

JRKnight wrote...

Ok, guess the question is:  Are people just that inferior of marksmen, or how many people tried to use the M-8 like some glorified automatic rifle (LMG)?

As someone who's used the M-8 Avenger pretty damn extensively, probably more so then any other service rifle in the game; including the M-96 and the M-76. In the right hands its a good weapon, especially on intense Insanity playthroughs.  Yes, I agree with the fact that the damage per round (10.8 last I checked) could be boosted but still balanced so that there remains a distinction between the assault rifles and battle rifles.  If I had to guess somewhere around 14.0 to 18.0.

I've done a couple of Insanity playthroughs (Import / Soldier / Rifleman setup) while using the M8 as my primary rifle.  With it I don't sacrific as much as I would if I grabbed one of the other rifles, to hell with damage.  While still retaining the ablities to lay down suppressing fire my squad, and the capacity to launch a round right through the center of mercs' skull at 40+ meters.  Tha'ts actually fact and on the Xbox 360 no less.

What exactly do you sacrifice by not choosing the M8? Being such a great marksmen, ammo should not be a problem right? Suppressing fire for the squad!? Enemies should be focusing on you most of the time.. 

Nobody (at least not me) is saying that the M8 should be upgraded to match the Mattock/Revenant or even close to that extend. A slight boost in damage, accuracy or even just stopping power would be sufficient.

As it is now, it has its uses - to make the game more challenging.

Alright, before this gets out of hand:
Ok, guess the question is:  Are people just that inferior of marksmen, or how many people tried to use the M-8 like some glorified automatic rifle (LMG)?
That was ment as bait just to get a reaction from people and appears to have worked.  Wasn't suppose to imply anything.

If you read the entire post, you would have realized I had been agreeing with you and everyone else that the base damage of the Avenge should be boosted.  Original base damage was 10.8, I was just saying it should be adjusted to 12.0 to 16.5 base damage.  Somewhere in there, which is still less then any other rifle besides the Geth Pulse Rifle.

So that it's still balanced with the other rifles and there remains a distinction between the assault rifles (M8, Geth Pulse Rifle, Collector Assault Rifle), battle rifles (M15, M96), and the M-76.  But in the process becomes a more effective and reliable weapon for players to use.  Though the base damage is the only thing, I believe, should be adjusted, everything else should remain the same.

What exactly do you sacrifice by not choosing the M8? Being such a great marksmen, ammo should not be a problem right? Suppressing fire for the squad!? Enemies should be focusing on you most of the time 

The way you and I approach fights is probably complete different from one another.  I've only seen a couple of youTube videos with a number of players showing off several of their ME2 playthroughs, and honestly I wasn't impressed.  But that's just me.

I don't if you play like that, but me.  I call on something known as CQD (Close Quarters Defense), a fighting system developed that taught me to have a large degree of control and balance when approaching an engagement.  The way the M8 is setup, its very similar to the Colt M4 automatic Assault Rifle, and it helps me fullfil that role more effectively without sacrficing certian things and not putting me off that balance.

Everyone plays the game differently, some more uniquely then others.

Modifié par JRKnight, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Miss Yuna of Atlanta wrote...

I think that in general, a weapon balance patch wouldn't be too unfeasible for BioWare to develop. There are a few weapons that just flat-out suck in combat, not working very well for what appears to be their intended use. I have a small list of guns that would fall into this category.


--Scimitar
--Avenger
--Collector Assault Rifle
--Missile Launcher
--Firestorm
--Katana
--Shuriken

I have to refute some of these. Shuriken and Katana mostly because they are great weapons. You never notice the of value the shuriken until you are a sent/vanguard/infiltrator on insanity. Scimitar I can deal with because if you are not a Vanguard and you are using a shotgun other than the geth shotgun or the Claymore, or are relying on a shotgun too much then, there is your problem. They are shotguns that you can keep on firing which is something you need in CQC. I use Scim and Katana the most followed by Claymore. Geth Shottie is best aim down sight and at mid to long range. I dislike the evi.

Avenger is okay. But I do agree that the "Trademark" should be amped up either with accuracy and a minor damage boost or a decent damage boost.

CAR I voice no opinion about since I have not used it.

Missile Launcher should have two modes: 
Lock on with same damage and Straight as an arrow/using the cursor for better damage and bigger AoE sort of like the grenade launcher. Or be able to put an ammo power on it xD
Anti-sheild/armor missiles or Napalm missiles.

Firestorm is terrible against anything with protection that I will give you hands down xD
As vanguard from veteran to insanity I just don't find it useful. It's cool and shoots fire but it's not really high for my my usage. Many better choices.

I do wish that SMGs had an accuarcy upgrade [an actual researchable one after 3/4 damage]. Then SMGs would be pretty beefy.

-----
Actually my biggest problem is the incisor. For my teammates it's amazing. Thane Garrus Zaeed and Legion can triple tap someone in the skull. I get one or two bullets to the enemies head regardless of class.

Modifié par Biotic Flash Kick, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:02 .

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Those playing Adept are (usually) not the ones with an DPS obsession. Biotics are fun and cool to use; if you're fond of the Avenger go for it - it isn't that bad; its a nice defense stripper and you won't run out of ammo. Plus it has personality and that counts for something too.

Exactly, choice of weapon to me is very much dependant on class, for my engineer it ended up being shotgun even though I had planned on the Mattock. It's a singleplayer game and min maxing is not much of a concern to me even on insanity difficulty, I blame the MMO mentality for ruining how I approach character building in these games. My BG2 sorcerer picked spells like Disintegrate and Polymorph other just cause I wanted my character to be able to do these things, and those spells got resisted often.

[tonnactus]

Miss Yuna of Atlanta wrote...

I think that in general, a weapon balance patch wouldn't be too unfeasible for BioWare to develop. There are a few weapons that just flat-out suck in combat, not working very well for what appears to be their intended use. I have a small list of guns that would fall into this category.


--Scimitar
--Avenger
--Collector Assault Rifle
--Missile Launcher
--Firestorm
--Katana
--Shuriken

The shuriken is far better then the crappy temptest with its nonexistent accuracy. This weapon is only good for squadmates. The scimitar is the best shotgun for all people who dont use the reload trick.

[tonnactus]

ashwind wrote...

New Soldier Insanity run with Avenger, Katana, Incisor and Predator and  ouch... I am using the Incisor more than the Avenger (mid-long range)... cos besides the low low ammo count, I feel that it is so much better than the Avenger. Since Incisor is generally regarded as the lousiest SR and maybe one of the lousiest weapon in game..

Not for squadmates...

[Tony Gunslinger]

It just occured to me that if the Avenger were to get a slight damage boost, then any enemy would using the Avenger would do more damage as well. I for one welcome that challenge, but some may not be so happy about that prospect.

[NYG1991]

i actually enjoy using the avenger. before the mattock came out i skipped over the vindicator till i got the revvy. with the accuracy upgrade and AP or inferno ammo i can lock down the battefield pretty well. i can fire in burst at mid range and strip defenses and go full auto when they close and never miss.



i just played lotsb on hardcore and actually was more effective with the avenger than with revvy. revenant had consistent accuracy problems at mid/long range but avenger was equally effective everywhere

[JaegerBane]

NYG1991 wrote...

i actually enjoy using the avenger. before the mattock came out i skipped over the vindicator till i got the revvy. with the accuracy upgrade and AP or inferno ammo i can lock down the battefield pretty well. i can fire in burst at mid range and strip defenses and go full auto when they close and never miss.

i just played lotsb on hardcore and actually was more effective with the avenger than with revvy. revenant had consistent accuracy problems at mid/long range but avenger was equally effective everywhere

The problem is, most people will pick up an Assault Rifle because it's generally a potent weapon effective at many different ranges, not because they can use it with a special ammo to lockdown the battlefield. In fact I don't believe anyone is really complaining about the accuracy, all the grief is being directed at it's piddly damage per shot.

I'm currently playing James Cameron's Avatar - The Game as an RDA Marine, and the Assault Rifle in that game is what I'd like to have in ME2. Very powerful, reasonably accurate and flexible, but not so effective it pulls ahead of more specialist weapons in their respective areas. In other words, it's never a bad choice.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

JaegerBane wrote...

Sure, there's the Collector Assault Rifle, but...it's available to just those whp purchased the CE

Not true - I don't have the CE but do have the Collectors armour and rifle.

The point about the Avenger is valid though - it really is lacking. What I'd prefer though is that we got another Assault Rifle that looks more or less the same.

What I'd want is:
- keep the Avenger, but change is to being red as in ME1. This is useful because it helps continuity, but it's also a cheap mass-produced rifle. I seem to recall it being referred to as 'Volus junk'.

- add the Lancer. The Alliance standard assault rifle, being exclusive to Alliance forces you'd think it would have better stats than the Avenger anyway, and would have more of the current look of the Avenger, more military, less mercenary

[kstarler]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Sure, there's the Collector Assault Rifle, but...it's available to just those whp purchased the CE

Not true - I don't have the CE but do have the Collectors armour and rifle.

The point about the Avenger is valid though - it really is lacking. What I'd prefer though is that we got another Assault Rifle that looks more or less the same.

What I'd want is:
- keep the Avenger, but change is to being red as in ME1. This is useful because it helps continuity, but it's also a cheap mass-produced rifle. I seem to recall it being referred to as 'Volus junk'.

- add the Lancer. The Alliance standard assault rifle, being exclusive to Alliance forces you'd think it would have better stats than the Avenger anyway, and would have more of the current look of the Avenger, more military, less mercenary

Two things. First, the only ways that I can think of to get the Collector items  without a CE is by purchasing a code on eBay, or by getting them in *ahem* a less than legal way. Or maybe you have a friend that gave you their code because they decided they didn't want it. I think Jaeger's point still stands regardless, as a good number of folks don't have access to it.

Second, Shepard is using the Avenger and not the Lancer because he/she is no longer part of the Alliance, so he wouldn't have access to that weapon. Which isn't to say that I wouldn't be happy to have one if it meant an upgraded Avenger rifle, but rather to say that it's unlikely we'll get one in ME2. But there's always some chance that a DLC will deal with returning to the Alliance, or at least coming back into their good graces.

Personally, I welcome any change to weapon balance that makes choosing an AR more difficult than deciding between the Mattock and Revenant.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I understand the reasoning with Shep and the Alliance, but then surely if you get reinstated as a Spectre, you can get an Alliance rifle? It doesn't have to be the Lancer, just a better weapon than the Avenger which can continue to fulfill the role of the the crappy weapon you get at the start of the game.

EDIT: also, I assure you that I didn't obtain the CE armour and rifle by any illegal means

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 31 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Why not just change the avenger to be like the Ak-47 is in most games? a fully automatic assault rifle with high power, but also high recoil?

[JaegerBane]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

I understand the reasoning with Shep and the Alliance, but then surely if you get reinstated as a Spectre, you can get an Alliance rifle? It doesn't have to be the Lancer, just a better weapon than the Avenger which can continue to fulfill the role of the the crappy weapon you get at the start of the game.

To a certain extent. Ultimately Cerberus purchases the very best for it's agents, so the idea that the best thing they could get their hands on was a bargain-basement cheap-and-cheerful Volus knockoff that's used by anyone with a few credits doesn't really gel with the storyline. Ultimately, Shep should be able to pick whatever Assault Rifle he'd want to use.

IIRC the Lancer is a basic standard-issue piece of kit that is used primarily due to the contracts the Alliance has with Hahne-Kedar. It's functional but I'm not sure anyone would intentionally try to get their hands on it at the expense of soemthing else.

EDIT: also, I assure you that I didn't obtain the CE armour and rifle by any illegal means

Yeah, well, as kstarler pointed out, it isn't really relevant if you figured out a way of getting them without buying the CE - my real point was that it's not a DLC that's available for anyone and hence you can't make the same assumption of availability as you could with, say, the Arc Projector or the Locust.

And to be honest, given that this DLC only comes with CE editions, I'd be surprised to hear how you managed to get it via legitimate means.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

The avenger was better than the lancer in ME1, iirc.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

JaegerBane wrote...

To a certain extent. Ultimately Cerberus purchases the very best for it's agents, so the idea that the best thing they could get their hands on was a bargain-basement cheap-and-cheerful Volus knockoff that's used by anyone with a few credits doesn't really gel with the storyline. Ultimately, Shep should be able to pick whatever Assault Rifle he'd want to use.

And to be honest, given that this DLC only comes with CE editions, I'd be surprised to hear how you managed to get it via legitimate means.

Well I can understand that, but Cerberus overlooked (initially) things like the Mattock, according to TIM, so you never know. Besides, maybe they realised they forgot to equip Shep with an Assault Rifle and rushed one to him/her?

As for the CE it's easy, and again not illegal, but you have to have the PC to do it. It also doesn't work on everything.

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

The avenger was better than the lancer in ME1, iirc.

No. It was better in base damage, but slightly worse in shots-before-overheat, plus the accuracy was always 1 - the Lancer was far, far more accurate (as was every other gun in the game).

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[Marbazoid]

I think its odd that there are clear distinctions performance wise between the weapons. They should just be "different" not better.



Choosing the Avenger over the Vindicator should be a viable choice, trading damage and accuracy for greater ammunition reserve and higher RoF. All the guns should be balanced like that.

[CC-Tron]

The missile launcher becomes the ultimate heavy weapon when modded for near unlimited ammo. Hide behind tall cover and shoot around corners or over obstacles for fun. It becomes an automatic homing mortar.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Not sure how that's relevant CC-Tron

[Loki330]

Lizardviking wrote...

Why not just change the avenger to be like the Ak-47 is in most games? a fully automatic assault rifle with high power, but also high recoil?

Because (in theory) that's the Revy.

Seeing all this discussion has got me toying (stress the word 'toying') with making a tweakpack. Here's my back-of-the-envelope ideas for it. No specific figures because I'd try 'ballpark' figures and then hone them accordingly or revert them entirely if they don't work.

Avenger: More damage, but probably nothing else. Retooled to be the allrounder-no big strength but no big weakness. This would be the baseline all the other guns are balanced around.

Vindicator: Change it to a 5rb as it's supposed to be, adjust the magazines accordingly to compensate. More damage than the avenger, however feathering it makes the crosshair spray more than the avenger. Faster recovery time than avanger however. That way it you get something between the Mattock and the Avenger.

Revenant: Lower the damned crosshair spraying. Considering this is a 'special' gun and the mayhem the Widowmaker and Claymore do, it's innacuracy while firing on full auto is criminal. Try lowering the innacuracy when spraying and see how it goes.

Geth Pulse Rifle: I'm not really sure to be honest. I guess an Avenger that does more damage to shields but less to armour. Perhaps a tiny bit more damage and spray too.

Collector Assault Rifle: Not sure. The 'fixed accuracy' style makes it very special and presents interesting playstyles. I'm thinking it has good accuracy all the time, less damage than the avenger and does more damage to biotic shields.

Mattock: Probably a slightly bigger crosshair spray when firing/slower accuracy return or even just a rof tweak; it's very easy to lock on something and quickly shoot them down in a few seconds. Can't make them too big though or you make it a 'poor man's sniper rifle'. Either way I feel there's nothing really 'wrong' with it, it just has a 'sweet spot' where it's numbers add up to a really good gun. I might balance the other guns around this... that might be more work though. Ulltamitely, it should be less 'assault rifle' and more 'sniper rifle' in my opinion.

Of course, this would probably have to be designed around Insanity difficulty-on the lower difficulties, which afaik is what the game's abilities and weapons are balanced around, the Avenger's perfectly fine.