205 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Lizardviking wrote...

What bothers me about the whole thing was that Bioware's best excuse for us to work for a terrorist group we might possible hate was to hand out idiot balls to both the alliance and the council in ME2.

This. So much.

Lizardviking wrote...

I don't think Shepard had any choice other than to follow Cerberus in the start, despite what TIM told him. I have a hard time believing that Cerberus would just let their 4 billion credits project just walk away.

This is why an escape sequence would be so awesome, where Shepard actually busts out of Lazarus Station.

It establishes Shepard as someone who cannot be "handled", defies Cerberus, earning their respect, sets up a nice conflict, and proves that when you do go back (and you will need to) it is your choice.

[Iakus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
But I like what BioWare has done in the past. It always had a sense of thoroughness.

Where did the thoroughness go?

Into the Liara/Legion intro that explains the N7 armor welded to his platform but would have required you to play someone other than Shepard from the beginning of the game, and thus got mercilessly scrapped.

'No data available' indeed.

If such an intro would have made more sense than what we ended up getting, I'd happily play Legion, Liara, even Conrad Verner!

[The_Numerator]

As far as idiot balls go, it does stretch the limits of what one is willing to dismiss as "bureaucratic ineptitude".

However I must concur with the writers in their decision not to have Shepard "mount a daring escape immediately after coming back from the dead".

You wake up under attack, to learn that you died a very gruesome death, and more, that you've been dead for two years.

And you have no idea what happened to anyone you care about. From what little you do learn, "most" of your crew survived. And where are they? Lost? Scattered? And the rest, dead. Who? The ones that matter the most? And you don't even know how the **** you're alive-- I can't emphasize this enough. What am I? How can I have been "brought back to life"? What the **** does that even mean? Am I a clone? A machine? Some monstrous imitation of a human being, no different than the abominations I gave my life trying to save this wretched galaxy from? How can I possibly know if I'm the same person I was? I don't even know who I am.

And while you've got all this to deal with, you've got a bunch of nobodies from nowhere telling you something about missing colonists? And you're talking to the leader of Cerberus?

At that point, is Cerberus and some vague allegations of some missing persons really your biggest concern?

I'll tell you my reaction.

"Cerberus?"

*Sigh*

"Whatever. Look-- frankly, I've got bigger problems of my own to deal with. I don't have time to deal with your trifling **** right now."

I still wasn't even sure I wasn't better off dead. So "running away"? Hell, I was just watching my body go through the motions.

Shoot-- Mindless heroics were the last thing on my mind.

It was a narrative decision which ultimately served Shepard the person instead of Shepard the character.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:07 .

[Nightwriter]

The_Numerator wrote...

And you have no idea what happened to anyone you care about. From what little you do learn, "most" of your crew survived. And where are they? Lost? Scattered? And the rest, dead. Who? The ones that matter the most? And you don't even know how the **** you're alive-- I can't emphasize this enough. What am I? How can I have been "brought back to life"? What the **** does that even mean? Am I a clone? A machine? Some monstrous imitation of a human being, no different than the abominations I gave my life trying to save this wretched galaxy from? How can I possibly know if I'm the same person I was? I don't even know who I am.

Shepard doesn't think ANY of these things. Which is all the more weird, because they seem like pretty natural things to think.

As for an escape, it's important you understand there's nothing heroic about it. I always envisioned it as an act of pure instinct, that old survivalism kicking in. If I woke up in a strange place amid strange people with gunfire going off everywhere, I'd try to get out. Instinctively. Think Resident Evil: Apocalypse after Alice wakes up in a laboratory.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why do I wake up in a strange place, during a strange station attack, talk to a strange man I’ve never met, hear him tell me about strange new enemies I've never heard of, believe him and then agree to work with him right off the bat, all ten minutes after I come out of a zombie coma?

It feels kind of unnatural. If I come out of a zombie coma the first thing I'm going to do isn't to take a field trip with strangers. I'd want to get out and find someone I know, figure out what the hell is going on. We sort of gloss over that part, just like we sort of gloss over Wilson's motives and the Lazarus Project. It's kind of weird.

Maybe it's just me.

Railroading.

[Iakus]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Collider wrote...
I'd probably go with oversight (Bioware not knowing that players would care that much or that they'd find it rushed/wrong), time restraints, or resource restraints such as the 2 disc thing.

More disks please! Give me 3 or more if it helps making a good story.

I wonder what ME3 will turn out to be. They will need more than just two disks to fix what they have done with ME2.

BG 2 was four or five disks.  Granted this was ten years ago and there was less data per disk..  But I won't care if they do the same fro ME 3 if it contains enough awesome story for two games.  Cause ME 3 is gonna need it.

[Atmosfear3]

If it was up to me the game would have started something like this:



Text intro

Normandy drops out of FTL and is attacked

Love interest finds Shepard, Shepard goes to help Joker, Shepard is shown falling into the planet in the background

Cutscene of Shepard's memories fading in and out starting from Eden Prime to last memory of the destruction of the normandy. Intermittent scenes of the reconstruction process of the Lazarus project.

Shepard wakes up to the attack on the station. Is told nothing about Cerberus and Jacob/Miranda dodge the questions.

Arrive at TIM's station and its revealed to you Cerberus is behind Shepard's ressurection.

Shepard steps into holo-communicator and talks to TIM.

Shepard agrees to go to Freedom's Progress. Hits the door to move on.

Queue Miranda/TIM discussion from beginning of game that we have now. Alter dialogue slightly of course. The original discussion should really have been folded into some sort of partially conscious state after Shepard has been brought back to life more or less (though not complete) with TIM on the communicator with TIM discussing how they needed Shepard and not to fail blahblah.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Considering how the first game tells you within a paragraph that you will be this and you have no say in what you do, they could have done much worse.



They could have cut out the entire opening sequence with Jacob and just put you in TIM's office.

[Nightwriter]

Showing a series of flashbacks over the events of ME1 is precisely what they will never do. That is already referencing events that new players aren't familiar with, which apparently is a big old no-no.

[Epic777]

Nightwriter wrote...

Showing a series of flashbacks over the events of ME1 is precisely what they will never do. That is already referencing events that new players aren't familiar with, which apparently is a big old no-no.

you want more visions of a certain mad mage/force dreams/beacon visions etc? +1 if you get all the references

Modifié par Epic777, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[The_Numerator]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard doesn't think ANY of these things. Which is all the more weird, because they seem like pretty natural things to think.

As for an escape, it's important you understand there's nothing heroic about it. I always envisioned it as an act of pure instinct, that old survivalism kicking in. If I woke up in a strange place amid strange people with gunfire going off everywhere, I'd try to get out. Instinctively. Think Resident Evil: Apocalypse after Alice wakes up in a laboratory.

You are Shepard... If you approach these sort of games that way.

In any case, Shepard thinks what you think. So don't tell me what Shepard thinks. Tell me what you think.

As for "heroics", I just chose that as a blanket term for "any decisive action requiring your full attention". And as I said, they had anything but my full attention.

And while I hesitate to be cheeky... I hope you're not suggesting we look to Resident Evil movies as the high water mark for character development. 

Modifié par The_Numerator, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Technically Shepard does try to get out among strange people in a strange place. However there is only one exit available. Since those people assisted you I don't see it as strange when you hear what they have to say.

[Christmas Ape]

Ryzaki wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
Everybody always grabs onto this Sole Survivor thing like it's ME2's kryptonite. You do realize that Toombs is an optional side-quest and they didn't stamp a Cerberus logo onto the Thresher Maws, right?

Right so Verner being optional means its perfectly OK BW dropped the ball.

Well, some guy in the coding teams should have been paying more attention to his flag priorities, no question. Likewise the Besieged Base. I'm not saying they couldn't have tightened up the behind-the-scenes QA a little. Just that, you know - writing a completely different opening sequence for...let's be generous....20% of the player base is wasted effort, even if those 20% are the most vocal on the internet, where opinions go to die.

[Lumikki]

I think the real problem here is that some people did not like to work with TIM. I did not say work for TIM, like some people with negative attitude agaist ME2 seem to think. In my opinion they have forget what Shepard really is.

Shepard isn't some children who needs to ask from mummy permission to do something. Shepard is someone who get the job done by his/her own, if that requires working with terrorist organisation to get the bigger picture done, then better adjust you way of thinking. If you talk with Council, they tell you that the job what you are doing is out of council's restriction as outside of they controled areas. Shepard job as Specter is about order in galaxy, not some personal connection to humans or past in System Alliance. Specters works alone and are above all laws and restrictions.

If you allways expect that everyting goes the way you want, you gonna have alot of disapointments.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
Everybody always grabs onto this Sole Survivor thing like it's ME2's kryptonite. You do realize that Toombs is an optional side-quest and they didn't stamp a Cerberus logo onto the Thresher Maws, right?

Right so Verner being optional means its perfectly OK BW dropped the ball.

Well, some guy in the coding teams should have been paying more attention to his flag priorities, no question. Likewise the Besieged Base. I'm not saying they couldn't have tightened up the behind-the-scenes QA a little. Just that, you know - writing a completely different opening sequence for...let's be generous....20% of the player base is wasted effort, even if those 20% are the most vocal on the internet, where opinions go to die.

Actually I don't think it's a simple coding error. The scene will not trigger even if you reset the flag. They never animated the scenes. 

(Which is odd...seeing as with the exception of the woman smacking you everything else should work fine). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Christmas Ape]

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually I don't think it's a simple coding error. The scene will not trigger even if you reset the flag. They never animated the scenes. 

(Which is odd...seeing as with the exception of the woman smacking you everything else should work fine).

*shrug* Ah well. Stuff ends on the cutting room floor all the time. If he didn't mention sticking a gun in his face no-one would have noticed - Shepard's role at the Battle of the Citadel kind of screams "Stand up! Be extreme!" (as much as we're all tired of that word having no meaning) anyway.
And Conrad is basically irrelevant to my point re: Sole Survivor.

[Ryzaki]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually I don't think it's a simple coding error. The scene will not trigger even if you reset the flag. They never animated the scenes. 

(Which is odd...seeing as with the exception of the woman smacking you everything else should work fine).

*shrug* Ah well. Stuff ends on the cutting room floor all the time. If he didn't mention sticking a gun in his face no-one would have noticed - Shepard's role at the Battle of the Citadel kind of screams "Stand up! Be extreme!" (as much as we're all tired of that word having no meaning) anyway.
And Conrad is basically irrelevant to my point re: Sole Survivor.

No because supposedly the paragon version has Verner going back home to his wife. He shouldn't be there in the first place. 

SS is an origin. You should at least be able to go: WTF should I trust you guys after what happened to me! I'm not asking for lines and lines of wangst. But some bloody recognition would go pretty far. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Lumikki wrote...

I think the real problem here is that some people did not like to work with TIM. I did not say work for TIM, like some people with negative attitude agaist ME2 seem to think. In my opinion they have forget what Shepard really is.

Shepard isn't some children who needs to ask from mummy permission to do something. Shepard is someone who get the job done by his/her own, if that requires working with terrorist organisation to get the bigger picture done, then better adjust you way of thinking. If you talk with Council, they tell you that the job what you are doing is out of council's restriction as outside of they controled areas. Shepard job as Specter is about order in galaxy, not some personal connection to humans or past in System Alliance. Specters works alone and are above all laws and restrictions.

If you allways expect that everyting goes the way you want, you gonna have alot of disapointments.

Yeah except the problem is Shep works for TIM. Shep's TIM's lapdog until the very end where you decide either to blow the base to smitherines. Once you do that you prove to TIM you're not one of his "resources". Until then he treats you as such. 

And who is Shepard? Shepard doesn't get the job done on his/her own. They've always had help. Whether it was the Protheans or your companions Shep was never really alone. 

And heck Shep might not even be a Spectre anymore deciding on your choices. 

I'm not asking for the option of two different games one where you work for Cerberus and one where you don't. I'm asking for Shep to verify that Cerberus really is the only operation doing anything about the human colonists (and heck to verify that the whole colonists thing is true!). Your Shep may be a mindless drone who believes everything he/she is told but mine isn't. 

[Nightwriter]

The_Numerator wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard doesn't think ANY of these things. Which is all the more weird, because they seem like pretty natural things to think.

As for an escape, it's important you understand there's nothing heroic about it. I always envisioned it as an act of pure instinct, that old survivalism kicking in. If I woke up in a strange place amid strange people with gunfire going off everywhere, I'd try to get out. Instinctively. Think Resident Evil: Apocalypse after Alice wakes up in a laboratory.

You are Shepard... If you approach these sort of games that way.

In any case, Shepard thinks what you think. So don't tell me what Shepard thinks. Tell me what you think.

As for "heroics", I just chose that as a blanket term for "any decisive action requiring your full attention". And as I said, they had anything but my full attention.

And while I hesitate to be cheeky... I hope you're not suggesting we look to Resident Evil movies as the high water mark for character development. 

I think there is a certain separation between player and character here.

To some extent, I'm watching Shepard. When Shepard doesn't react the way I would, I feel disconnected from Shepard, and the separation between us grows, I start to see Shepard as a separate person. No small wonder I felt most connected to Shepard in LotSB and the most disconnected from Shepard in the opening of the game, where Shepard doesn't really react to little things like, for instance, dying.

Resident Evil is the first example I could think of for an I-Woke-Up-In-A-Strange-Laboratory scenario.

[Christmas Ape]

Ryzaki wrote...
No because supposedly the paragon version has Verner going back home to his wife. He shouldn't be there in the first place.

Which you wouldn't know if it weren't for forumites digging up unused audio content. If you were presented with a Verner who just "took Shepard's example" about "being extreme", but never mentioned the gun, and never came to this forum, it would be seamless. Shepard tells him to go home to his wife, but that doesn't mean he listened. You cannot apply player omniscience to matters of in-game immersion.

SS is an origin. You should at least be able to go: WTF should I trust you guys after what happened to me! I'm not asking for lines and lines of wangst. But some bloody recognition would go pretty far. <_<

Are you just not listening? I'm aware it's one of the origins. But when you're doing the storyboards, you've got to just take the numbers. 1/3 of all Shepards can be presumed to be Sole Survivors. What percentage of that user base then played through the optional Toombs mission, and took the word of an emotionally disturbed murderer as fact, is up for contention. I think my estimation was probably generous. Sure, a line for tIM beyond the "I'll never work for Cerberus!" response to Jacob might have been nice, but most people seem to want a lead-in wherein they execute two of the main characters and go through the Council/Alliance - who are ignoring the problem - as opposed to Freedom's Progress. That's not "some recognition". That's "a completely different first hour of gameplay".

[Nightwriter]

I wanted that opening and I'm not even a sole survivor.

Akuze isn't my background, but you have to admit it's pretty glaring that it never gets mentioned. Possibly even immersion-breaking. An extra line or two would've helped without drawing too much attention to it.

[Nozybidaj]

The_Numerator wrote...
And you have no idea what happened to anyone you care about. From what little you do learn, "most" of your crew survived. And where are they? Lost? Scattered? And the rest, dead. Who? The ones that matter the most? And you don't even know how the **** you're alive-- I can't emphasize this enough. What am I? How can I have been "brought back to life"? What the **** does that even mean? Am I a clone? A machine? Some monstrous imitation of a human being, no different than the abominations I gave my life trying to save this wretched galaxy from? How can I possibly know if I'm the same person I was? I don't even know who I am.

Yeah, its too bad Shep doesn't actually care about any of those things.  That would have actually been believable.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The_Numerator wrote...

As far as idiot balls go, it does stretch the limits of what one is willing to dismiss as "bureaucratic ineptitude".

I already had a hard time buying the whole "we're not doing anything to stop Saren" but hey, atleast they admitted that they were wrong and were ready to fight the Reapers in the end of ME1. But then comes ME2 and because Mac couldn't find an excuse that made sense for us to work with Cerberus, he just handed out free idiot balls to the council and the alliance. Thereby rendering the ending of ME1 completely moot.

It's even worse because in ME1 the alliance seemed like they were actuelly trying to do something, ME2? Nah, they got better things to do.

[Therion942]

Nightwriter wrote...

I wanted that opening and I'm not even a sole survivor.

Akuze isn't my background, but you have to admit it's pretty glaring that it never gets mentioned. Possibly even immersion-breaking. An extra line or two would've helped without drawing too much attention to it.

It's a good way to shoot a player out of giving a single damn about your game, or your game's story right off the bat.

[Nightwriter]

I take it you're a sole survivor?