205 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Christmas Ape wrote...
Which you wouldn't know if it weren't for forumites digging up unused audio content. If you were presented with a Verner who just "took Shepard's example" about "being extreme", but never mentioned the gun, and never came to this forum, it would be seamless. Shepard tells him to go home to his wife, but that doesn't mean he listened. You cannot apply player omniscience to matters of in-game immersion.

How would him blantantly lying and Shep not calling him out on it seamless? How is Shep not asking why is he not still with his wife seamless? It's immersion breaking full stop. I knew the first time I played the game something was wrong which is why I looked around the forums. 

Are you just not listening? I'm aware it's one of the origins. But when you're doing the storyboards, you've got to just take the numbers. 1/3 of all Shepards can be presumed to be Sole Survivors. What percentage of that user base then played through the optional Toombs mission, and took the word of an emotionally disturbed murderer as fact, is up for contention. I think my estimation was probably generous. Sure, a line for tIM beyond the "I'll never work for Cerberus!" response to Jacob might have been nice, but most people seem to want a lead-in wherein they execute two of the main characters and go through the Council/Alliance - who are ignoring the problem - as opposed to Freedom's Progress. That's not "some recognition". That's "a completely different first hour of gameplay".

Yet they can place in extra dialogue for people who bought DLC? You realize that's a much smaller percentage than 33%?   

Also: That completely first hour could have applied across the board you realize. <_< Frankly I'm surprised it wasn't mandatory. Since when was Shep a brainless puppet who followed others orders without question? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Therion942]

My primary Manshep is, the others still do the mission because they find it impossible to resist Admiral Hackett's soothing gravelly voice.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since people like you don't ask questions.

[The_Numerator]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think there is a certain separation between player and character here.

To some extent, I'm watching Shepard. When Shepard doesn't react the way I would, I feel disconnected from Shepard, and the separation between us grows, I start to see Shepard as a separate person. No small wonder I felt most connected to Shepard in LotSB and the most disconnected from Shepard in the opening of the game, where Shepard doesn't really react to little things like, for instance, dying.

Resident Evil is the first example I could think of for an I-Woke-Up-In-A-Strange-Laboratory scenario.

Heh. I was only teasing about that Resident Evil business.

Anyway, you referred to a "separation" between player and character here-- this disconnect you experience when the reaction you see is not yours.

Well, that's perfectly natural, of course. But at the same time, you must appreciate that the nature of the beast is such that the onus is upon you to decide how Shepard "really" reacts. I think you would agree that it is unfortunate that the price which must be paid for a game of this sort to be equally accessible to everyone, is that it must be perfectly suited to no one. I doubt you'll find a single person who could honestly say they felt that there was nothing missing; much ought to be there, which isn't. Some things are missing out of structural necessity; other things because of insufficient planning.

Nevertheless, the formula is obliged to try not to give preferential treatment to any one person's narrative. But that doesn't mean that your narrative isn't there: It is just encrypted, in the right combination of subtle cues and intimations, waiting for you to disentangle it from what, at face value, may seem a very unrelatable mess.

I did... I would like to illustrate the point by showing how, though not always an straightforward process, I was able to extract my narrative from events... Let's say, about up until you're off to collect your first dossiers. However, I don't want to get ahead of myself, and I think that it would be instructive if I had a clearer idea of what your own narrative is, and anything in particular you found difficult to reconcile with it from, let's say again, the beginning up until you're off for the first dossiers. Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in. Exercises are fun, right? The more participants, the more data we gather, and hence the more compelling the results.

So point by point. Any problems you had, what you "should" have happened-- that sort of thing. See where it takes us.

On that note, philiposophy's alternate scenario was clean and well-ordered. No caveats. It was strong, and definitely had potential.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:44 .

[TuringPoint]

They were actually going for the rushed feeling. That's the only way Shepard could be forced into such a position.

[Inverness Moon]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
But I like what BioWare has done in the past. It always had a sense of thoroughness.

Where did the thoroughness go?

Into the Liara/Legion intro that explains the N7 armor welded to his platform but would have required you to play someone other than Shepard from the beginning of the game, and thus got mercilessly scrapped.

'No data available' indeed.

There did the details about this scrapped intro come from? And what would the explanation have been for Legion's armor?

I'm highly annoyed with BioWare for scrapping this. They should have had this intro available for those who were importing or choose to play it or something. 

I really hate how Legion's role was reduced to almost nothing in ME2. I doubt BioWare will make up for it in ME3, but I'm hopeful.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 27 octobre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Nightwriter]

Alocormin wrote...

They were actually going for the rushed feeling. That's the only way Shepard could be forced into such a position.

No. To me this translates into, "It was supposed to be bad."

I cannot accept that! I shall not! BioWare has great writers! Great, I tell you! They wouldn't do that to me on purpose!

Seriously though, it wasn't supposed to be that bad. That's fact, they had a whole other intro planned and everything.

[Nightwriter]

The_Numerator wrote...

Heh. I was only teasing about that Resident Evil business.

Anyway, referred a "separation" between player and character here-- this disconnect you experience when the reaction you see isn't not yours.

Well, that's perfectly natural, of course. But at the same time, you must appreciate that the nature of the beast is such that the onus is upon you to decide how Shepard "really" reacts. I think you would agree that it is unfortunate that the price which must be paid for a game of this sort to be equally accessible to everyone, is that it must be perfectly suited to no one. I doubt you'll find a single person who could honestly say they felt that there was nothing missing; much ought to be there, which isn't. Some things are missing out of structural necessity; other things because of insufficient planning.

Nevertheless, the formula is obliged to try not to give preferential treatment to any one person's narrative. But that doesn't mean that your narrative isn't there: It is just encrypted, in the right combination of subtle cues and intimations, waiting for you to disentangle it from what, at face value, may seem a very unrelatable mess.

I did... I would like to illustrate the point by showing how, though not always an straightforward process, I was able to extract my narrative from events... Let's say, about up until you're off to collect your first dossiers. However, I don't want to get ahead of myself, and I think that it would be instructive if I had a clearer idea of what your own narrative is, and anything in particular you found difficult to reconcile with it from, let's say again, the beginning up until you're off for the first dossiers. Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in. Exercises are fun, right? The more participants, the more data we gather, and hence the more compelling the results.

So point by point. Any problems you had, what you "should" have happened-- that sort of thing. See where it takes us.

On that note, philiposophy's alternate scenario was clean and well-ordered. No caveats. It was strong, and definitely had potential.

Okay, let me see...

Well the opening was great, I was engaged during the destruction of the Normandy. Big "whoa" factor there, well done.

I was really interested in the "if you wanna ****** off the boss, it's your ass, Jacob" scene...

Then Miranda shoots Wilson. That made no sense, but it's not that important. THEN... then we go to the other Lazarus Station.

It all falls apart there. In that first conversation with TIM. I think that's where my problems start.

[Autoclave]

All this catering to the sequel newcomers has NEVER done a good thing for the games. It always ruins the plot. It's like telling ppl that the events in the first game never had any relevance on the protagonist.

[Giggles_Manically]

I agree with you Night.



Not being able to say ANYTHING as a sole-survivor completely ruined the start of ME2.

Then the whole middle.

Than the end.



I did like the jab the Vasir throws at you in LOTSB though if you are a sole survivor.



Honestly though I could not stand being rail roaded, and not being able to say anything working for Cerberus that I wanted to. Overall I hope that it registers in ME3 that I told TIM to shove it, because if I get railroaded again that will ruin ME3 for me.

[Nightwriter]

I don't care if I'm railroaded as long as I can say in the game, "Hey I don't like being railroaded like this."

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't care if I'm railroaded as long as I can say in the game, "Hey I don't like being railroaded like this."

The difference between your character being railroaded within the framework of the story, and you being railroaded as a player, perhaps?

[TuringPoint]

I was trying to say the "rushed" feeling was the situation that the writers created, not the writers bad writing or something getting cut. Shepard gets railroaded. That's Bioware's plan.  People get railroaded in real life too.  

Maybe they could've given Shepard more of a chance to throw a tantrum and get distracted from fighting the Collector's, but I think that would've been bad writing.  They did enough of that I think.

Modifié par Alocormin, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .

[SmokeyPSD]

Wow, some people on here really hate Mass Effect 2. I just can't help but think some are filled with more hot air than sense. I had come on here after completing both 1 and 2 to discuss with others plot, concepts and stuff but after a bit of exploring I almost don't feel like it after reading some ppls posts.

[Randy1012]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

Wow, some people on here really hate Mass Effect 2. I just can't help but think some are filled with more hot air than sense. I had come on here after completing both 1 and 2 to discuss with others plot, concepts and stuff but after a bit of exploring I almost don't feel like it after reading some ppls posts.

Don't be discouraged. Everyone's opinion matters here, it's just the nature of the beast that people like one thing over another. I personally prefer ME1 as a whole over ME2, but I certainly don't hate ME2. Most people around here are pretty reasonable, but others take this whole thing a little too seriously, and that can sometimes ruin everyone else's fun.

[glasgoo21]

 easy,

1. you don't have much choice but go along
2. you hook up with old friends
3. you've been dead long enough for new ennemies to arise
4. It's a computer game,... they only have so much time to get an intro done

[SmokeyPSD]

In actual fact I found the beginning gave ME2 drive in narrative and set the stage quite well. It didn't feel rushed to me, it did feel intense and tight though in my opinion. The issue of being thorough, I don't think it was needed, ME2 did well hitting the ground running.

[Manic Sheep]

Shot answer: because it is.
They probably wanted to just get all that over with so they could kick start the story and give you a reason to work with Cerberus. I consider it an acceptable story mechanic. For what it is, they didn’t do too bad a job IMO. They couldn’t possibly make all the different options for how people wanted their Shep to react.

To be fair, when you’re on that station after having just woke up, you have no idea what’s going on or where you are. Miranda and Jacob are the only people you have contact with and who can take you to someone to get answers. What else can you sensibly do but go along with them for the time being? At least until you get your bearings. Remember that you don’t actually know where you are or where anyone you know is. You could just take the shuttle and leave them behind I suppose but that wouldn't be very smart. You would probably just end up getting lost and potentially lose the opportunity to find out what Cerberus wanted with you or what they did to you (I personally would be very worried that they had screwed with my head or implanted a control chip.)Also Shep is a soldier. Would have been weird for him/ her to throw a tantrum about the whole thing.

And after your first talk with TIM you haven’t really ‘agreed’ to work with him yet. You have only agreed to go to Freedom's Progress and check things out for yourself and you do hock up with some people you know: Joker and Dr Chakwas


After that things start to feel a bit sloppy to me. Especially when you talk to Anderson or Udina. Its like the issue just gets dropped. Although paragons still continue to be aggressive towards TIM while still doing everything they are told.

Also "I’m not working for Cerberus" No, no of course not. Your just following TIMs orders, using their equipment an wearing their uniform.

and it is weird and abit sloppy that you can’t bring up Akuze with them. Especially since its one of the available backgrounds and Shep seems a bit to calm about the being dead for 2 years.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 28 octobre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Xeranx]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

Wow, some people on here really hate Mass Effect 2. I just can't help but think some are filled with more hot air than sense. I had come on here after completing both 1 and 2 to discuss with others plot, concepts and stuff but after a bit of exploring I almost don't feel like it after reading some ppls posts.

You're doing this wrong from the start.  You're instigating a confrontation and I will meet it head on in hopes that it will die after I'm done so people avoid it coming from you again.  To come in and say people really hate Mass Effect 2 in this thread is flat out wrong.  People wouldn't be discussing their issues with Mass Effect 2 if they didn't care about the mythos.  Most discussion starts with disagreements. 

Then to accuse others of being "filled with more hot air than sense" = stupid is mistake number two.  By the way that could include you for they way you come into this thread announcing your presence and taking shots at others.

The point of this thread, if I may be able to assume the point of the thread, is to focus more on what issues some have a problem with because the disappointment thread allows for a great many things to discuss without any real focus.  I appreciate what she's doing and what I feel you're trying to do is unwelcome.  You're welcome to discuss, but not welcome to brandish anyone here a hater.  Take care. 

Modifié par Xeranx, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:38 .

[Chignon]

Lizardviking wrote...

What bothers me about the whole thing was that Bioware's best excuse for us to work for a terrorist group we might possible hate was to hand out idiot balls to both the alliance and the council in ME2.

I agree completely.

[Xeranx]

Alocormin wrote...

I was trying to say the "rushed" feeling was the situation that the writers created, not the writers bad writing or something getting cut. Shepard gets railroaded. That's Bioware's plan.  People get railroaded in real life too.  

Maybe they could've given Shepard more of a chance to throw a tantrum and get distracted from fighting the Collector's, but I think that would've been bad writing.  They did enough of that I think.

I have no problem with Shepard being railroaded.  I, however, do have a problem with Shepard being railroaded without sound reason that he/she can imagine.  The writers could have taken a few minutes to have a sequence play out while Shepard leaves the Citadel after the meeting.  Maybe something like this (assuming Anderson is the human councilor):

Anderson (to the Council): I don't feel right doing this to Shepard.

Councilor(s): We thought it the best way to push him towards Cerberus.  We need eyes and ears within that faction.  The Alliance has lost its fair share of members to that Organization and we still don't know if we have any Cerberus spies.  As long as Shepard is with them and as long as Cerberus feels we are keeping Shepard at arm's length they'll tell him more than if we welcomed him back.

Anderson: But we could have been a bit more tactful about it.

Councilor(s): Councilor Anderson, we know as well as you do how intelligent the Commander is.  If we attempted to play nice, as you humans say, he/she may have gotten suspicious.  We need the Commander to appear free for Cerberus to divulge any secrets they may have.  Our hope is the Commander will do what is right and that allegiances aren't severed, but merely strained.

Anderson: Then let's hope Shepard's allegiances don't change...for all our sakes.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xeranx wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

I was trying to say the "rushed" feeling was the situation that the writers created, not the writers bad writing or something getting cut. Shepard gets railroaded. That's Bioware's plan.  People get railroaded in real life too.  

Maybe they could've given Shepard more of a chance to throw a tantrum and get distracted from fighting the Collector's, but I think that would've been bad writing.  They did enough of that I think.

I have no problem with Shepard being railroaded.  I, however, do have a problem with Shepard being railroaded without sound reason that he/she can imagine.  The writers could have taken a few minutes to have a sequence play out while Shepard leaves the Citadel after the meeting.  Maybe something like this (assuming Anderson is the human councilor):

Anderson (to the Council): I don't feel right doing this to Shepard.

Councilor(s): We thought it the best way to push him towards Cerberus.  We need eyes and ears within that faction.  The Alliance has lost its fair share of members to that Organization and we still don't know if we have any Cerberus spies.  As long as Shepard is with them and as long as Cerberus feels we are keeping Shepard at arm's length they'll tell him more than if we welcomed him back.

Anderson: But we could have been a bit more tactful about it.

Councilor(s): Councilor Anderson, we know as well as you do how intelligent the Commander is.  If we attempted to play nice, as you humans say, he/she may have gotten suspicious.  We need the Commander to appear free for Cerberus to divulge any secrets they may have.  Our hope is the Commander will do what is right and that allegiances aren't severed, but merely strained.

Anderson: Then let's hope Shepard's allegiances don't change...for all our sakes.

Which totally changes the point-of-view of the game from 3rd person tight to 3rd-person-omniscient. 

[Nightwriter]

Don't we have a TIM/Miranda discussion at the beginning of the game? I think we've done third person omniscient before. I think we had some third person omniscient scenes in ME1. I still prefer not to have too much of it.

Xeranx wrote...

I have no problem with Shepard being railroaded.  I, however, do have a problem with Shepard being railroaded without sound reason that he/she can imagine. 

I REALLY agree with this.

I want to look at an example like the mage origin story of DA:O. No matter what, you are "railroaded" into becoming a Grey Warden. You can't change that.

But:

1. It is clearly and satisfactorily explained.
2. It's obvious why it's necessary.
3. We can object. "Hey! I don't wanna be a Grey Warden!"

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:24 .

[Kasces]

I was under the impression the beginning was suppose to feel rushed and totally wrong, because that's exactly how Shepard would feel. Besides, working with Cerberus was necessary. They could have thrown in some extra lines for you Akuze types but frankly, it's like someone else said: Shepard has bigger things to worry about than personal beef. Shepard isn't our character just our character as we guide him, so as an individual character Shepard could have felt figuring out exactly what's happening takes priority over his personal feelings. He is a marine after all, paragon or no. He was kind of trained for this ishh You might as well complain why instead of agreeing full well with Jacob's dad's methods, even if renegade he says Taylor took it too far. Well, because Shepard is a character outside of what we make him.



And for the record, Miranda totally would have left Shepard to the mechs. She does not trust Shepard's goals from the get go, so the Commander doesn't want to come? Fine, the project was a success because Shepard is weary of Shepard as he should be, so what's the skin off her bones over his free will? Even if Shepard MANAGES to kill Jacob and Miranda, what would he have done? He would have gone to the Alliance, been fed BS politics but instead of having resources or even being aware of the Collectors', in 6 or so years a brand new Reaper would have attacked the citadel and won.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Don't we have a TIM/Miranda discussion at the beginning of the game? I think we've done third person omniscient before. I think we had some third person omniscient scenes in ME1. I still prefer not to have too much of it.

And really, I think that everything in ME2 before Shep wakes up on Lazarus Station probably should have been left out.