205 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Kasces wrote...

I was under the impression the beginning was suppose to feel rushed and totally wrong, because that's exactly how Shepard would feel. Besides, working with Cerberus was necessary. They could have thrown in some extra lines for you Akuze types but frankly, it's like someone else said: Shepard has bigger things to worry about than personal beef. Shepard isn't our character just our character as we guide him, so as an individual character Shepard could have felt figuring out exactly what's happening takes priority over his personal feelings. He is a marine after all, paragon or no. He was kind of trained for this ishh You might as well complain why instead of agreeing full well with Jacob's dad's methods, even if renegade he says Taylor took it too far. Well, because Shepard is a character outside of what we make him.

TIM: Shepard. There are these guys. The Collectors. They're working for the Reapers. You have to go after them or the galaxy will be lost. No one will help you but me. We must work together. All your friends are no longer relevant.

Shepard: Okay.

This is not Shepard feeling rushed and wrong. Shepard does not express any "this feels rushed and wrong" feelings. Shepard simply agrees.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kasces wrote...

I was under the impression the beginning was suppose to feel rushed and totally wrong, because that's exactly how Shepard would feel. Besides, working with Cerberus was necessary. They could have thrown in some extra lines for you Akuze types but frankly, it's like someone else said: Shepard has bigger things to worry about than personal beef. Shepard isn't our character just our character as we guide him, so as an individual character Shepard could have felt figuring out exactly what's happening takes priority over his personal feelings. He is a marine after all, paragon or no. He was kind of trained for this ishh You might as well complain why instead of agreeing full well with Jacob's dad's methods, even if renegade he says Taylor took it too far. Well, because Shepard is a character outside of what we make him.

TIM: Shepard. There are these guys. The Collectors. They're working for the Reapers. You have to go after them or the galaxy will be lost. No one will help you but me. We must work together. All your friends are no longer relevant.

Shepard: Okay.

This is not Shepard feeling rushed and wrong. Shepard does not express any "this feels rushed and wrong" feelings. Shepard simply agrees.

Well, you can say "prove it", and then you get to see the Veetor's video and data evidence on Freedom's Progress. 

[Lord_Caledore]

The kicker for me was that you can ask TIM if you have a choice in investigating the Collector attacks, and his response, IIRC, is "You always have a choice, Shepard".



The irony being, of course, that we didn't.

[Nightwriter]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, you can say "prove it", and then you get to see the Veetor's video and data evidence on Freedom's Progress.

You know what I really hate about that first TIM conversation?

In the beginning you can say, "Nothing you say is going to convince me to trust you. I need more than words." Which is GREAT. Good line.

But if you investigate - like you should - that line vanishes. Afterward the best line they give you is:

"If what you say is true... if the Reapers are behind this... I'd consider helping you."

Why?! Why did you take that first line out? When I first heard the "I'd consider helping you" line I was like wtf?! Too fast. If I investigate the one line that lets me retain a little character freedom is taken away.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lord_Caledore wrote...

The kicker for me was that you can ask TIM if you have a choice in investigating the Collector attacks, and his response, IIRC, is "You always have a choice, Shepard".

The irony being, of course, that we didn't.

At that point, BioWare is in a bit of a corner of their own painting.  Where does the story go if Shep just leaves? 

Really, if they wanted to stick with Shep dying (or nearly so, or whatever), and Cerberus bringing him back, what they needed to do was have Shep escape Lazarus Station alone -- Jacob and Miranda aren't there -- and make it to the Citadel on his own, only to find out that it's been two years and everyone thinks he's dead.  Then it becomes a matter of Shep finding himself with a choice between working with people he hates (Cerberus) or not investigating the disappearances.  Make the connection betwen the disappearances and the Reapers a bit more tantalizing -- something like "we had a buried intelligence probe on that world, and it picked up a signal similar to one recorded during Sovereign's attack on the Citadel". 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, you can say "prove it", and then you get to see the Veetor's video and data evidence on Freedom's Progress.

You know what I really hate about that first TIM conversation?

In the beginning you can say, "Nothing you say is going to convince me to trust you. I need more than words." Which is GREAT. Good line.

But if you investigate - like you should - that line vanishes. Afterward the best line they give you is:

"If what you say is true... if the Reapers are behind this... I'd consider helping you."

Why?! Why did you take that first line out? When I first heard the "I'd consider helping you" line I was like wtf?! Too fast. If I investigate the one line that lets me retain a little character freedom is taken away.

That was a bit of a problem for me, too. 

[Xeranx]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Which totally changes the point-of-view of the game from 3rd person tight to 3rd-person-omniscient. 

You're right.  It probably would have been better if the Council began asking us questions that would result in unsatisfactory answers in their minds.  Or maybe, as someone else alluded, have Miranda approach us.  She would be a Cerberus plant, but everything about her would say she's Alliance.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

At that point, BioWare is in a bit of a corner of their own painting.  Where does the story go if Shep just leaves?  

Really, if they wanted to stick with Shep dying (or nearly so, or whatever), and Cerberus bringing him back, what they needed to do was have Shep escape Lazarus Station alone -- Jacob and Miranda aren't there -- and make it to the Citadel on his own, only to find out that it's been two years and everyone thinks he's dead.  Then it becomes a matter of Shep finding himself with a choice between working with people he hates (Cerberus) or not investigating the disappearances.  Make the connection betwen the disappearances and the Reapers a bit more tantalizing -- something like "we had a buried intelligence probe on that world, and it picked up a signal similar to one recorded during Sovereign's attack on the Citadel".  

Actually I like that better than what I came up with.  Tie in the possibility that we find something to continue the loose thread from ME of finding some way to stop them and make working with Cerberus a good idea.  It still brings up conflict with the Council so they can be ready to drop you if they feel they need to.

Modifié par Xeranx, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Kasces]

Kasces wrote...



I was under the impression the beginning was suppose to feel rushed and totally wrong, because that's exactly how Shepard would feel. Besides, working with Cerberus was necessary. They could have thrown in some extra lines for you Akuze types but frankly, it's like someone else said: Shepard has bigger things to worry about than personal beef. Shepard isn't our character just our character as we guide him, so as an individual character Shepard could have felt figuring out exactly what's happening takes priority over his personal feelings. He is a marine after all, paragon or no. He was kind of trained for this ishh You might as well complain why instead of agreeing full well with Jacob's dad's methods, even if renegade he says Taylor took it too far. Well, because Shepard is a character outside of what we make him.





TIM: Shepard. There are these guys. The Collectors. They're working for the Reapers. You have to go after them or the galaxy will be lost. No one will help you but me. We must work together. All your friends are no longer relevant.



Shepard: Okay.



This is not Shepard feeling rushed and wrong. Shepard does not express any "this feels rushed and wrong" feelings. Shepard simply agrees.







Shepard says "prove it" > Freedom's Progress = all the proof he needs. Plus you can still show through Shepard you don't like it, which is exactly why I said at most people can argue more dialogue should have been available.





If that doesn't suit you, well, there

s that whole alternative that Shepard throws a fit, leaves, 6 years later Human Reaper, yeah.....

[Nightwriter]

... So I'm asking too much when I say I'd like to keep that first line of dialogue which vanishes after you investigate? Really? Tsk tsk.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kasces wrote...
If that doesn't suit you, well, theres that whole alternative that Shepard throws a fit, leaves, 6 years later Human Reaper, yeah.....

Which is where I said BioWare painted themselves into a corner at that moment.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

... So I'm asking too much when I say I'd like to keep that first line of dialogue which vanishes after you investigate? Really? Tsk tsk.

Well, I don't think that's asking too much, but then, as I said, I'd probably rewrite the whole beginning anyway.

[chris025657]

Kasces wrote...

He would have gone to the Alliance, been fed BS politics but instead of having resources or even being aware of the Collectors', in 6 or so years a brand new Reaper would have attacked the citadel and won.

For the Collectors to complete the Reaper, they would first have to harvest Earth. I just don't see that as being feasible.

The working with Cerberus plot would have made much more sense to me if they did what Nightwriter said here:

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually I would also have liked a scene where they use show-don't-tell to demonstrate Cerberus's value to us. 

Shepard is investigating colonies on his own and Cerberus sweeps in at the eleventh hour with ships and guns and fights the Collectors off. It really starts to sink in: Cerberus is the only one doing anything about this, the only one taking effective action.

As it stands now, I don't see a good reason why my Shepard wouldn't just shoot Jacob in the back after admitting to be with Cerberus. My Shepard doesn't know anything about the Collector threat, the new Normandy, or the lack of action by the Council or the Alliance. What could be known at that point however, is Cerberus's status as a rogue Alliance group and that Cerberus had abducted and experimented on Alliance soldiers as well as trying to kill Shepard. Railroading is fine so long as it's well explained and justified. 

[Kasces]

Indeed they did.

[The_Numerator]

Nightwriter wrote...
Okay, let me see...

Well the opening was great, I was engaged during the destruction of the Normandy. Big "whoa" factor there, well done.

I was really interested in the "if you wanna ****** off the boss, it's your ass, Jacob" scene...

Then Miranda shoots Wilson. That made no sense, but it's not that important. THEN... then we go to the other Lazarus Station.

It all falls apart there. In that first conversation with TIM. I think that's where my problems start.

What I meant was... Hmm.

Ah, let me try it this way-- Suppose we divide things up based on events which occur between waking up on the station, and immediately following your departure aboard the Normandy SR2.

Then, if I'm not mistaken, that gives us the following increments:

1) Awakening to introduction to Jacob;

2) Introduction to Jacob to introduction to Wilson;

3) Introduction to Wilson to Miranda kills Wilson;

4) Miranda kills Wilson to first meeting with Illusive Man;

5) First meeting with Illusive man to start of mission on Freedom's Progress;

6) Start of mission on Freedom's Progress to conclusion of mission on Freedom's Progress;

7) Conclusion of mission on Freedom's Progress to second meeting with Illusive Man;

8) Second meeting with Illusive Man to presentation of Normandy SR2;

9) Presentation of Normandy SR2 to getting acquainted with her and her crew;

10) Getting acquainted with the Normandy SR2 to deciding upon your first course of action.

So, an empathic exercise. Whee-hee. I'm positively tickled. What fun this will be.

So far I've only described what does happen-- Clearly, I've introduced no variable elements. I've just broken things up clearly to help make the next part of the exercise easier for you to get into.

Now, if you would be so kind as to indulge me, as I expect it requires a non-trivial investment of your time: Recalling in detail thoughts and emotions which may have happened quite a while ago isn't necessarily easy.

If you would then, what I would like you to do is proceed, in order, through the intervals described above, to describe, first, what your thoughts and feelings were, and how they evolved, during each interval. Not your thoughts about problems; not the mechanical details. But your reactions-- In short, how "Shepard" was thinking and responding, based on events, without regard to bumps which interrupted the empathic connection: That's for the second part.

Then, mention any details which you feel are worth of mention for helping strengthen your connection, and/or those which weakened or broke it.

Third, of those which weakened the connection, in what specific way did they undermine the "real" narrative that you described in the first part?

Finally, any additional comments you feel are worthy of note like, for example, how the narrative of one section had consequences in other sections. Another example: How the problems in one section propagated into others. In fact, even go beyond the scope of the original 10 in discussing implications later on if you feel it's worth mentioning. Like I said, this part is just any other general points you think are worth mentioning.

It's asking an awful lot, I know. In truth though, I'm rather glad I took the time to type all this out though-- It'll sure make things easier when it's time to write out my own experience, now that I've set a formal template.

What else?... "What is all this supposed to accomplish?"

Well, as I think I said before, put in broader terms this time: As far as game design and execution goes, there are real problems, and there are apparent problems. For your benefit, we can find out if your negative experiences were the result of real problems or apparent ones, and we do this by way of rigorous analysis.

Can we do it without rigorous analysis? Perhaps, of course. But while slower and more cumbersome, we are certainly able to do it with rigorous analysis! Hurrah for painstaking formality!

And as before, if anyone else wants to join in the fun... Well, hell! Why wouldn't you? Just imagine what you might learn! Plus you get to spend long periods of time quietly writing and intensely thinking! What a way to spend an evening!

Modifié par The_Numerator, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Kasces]

chris025657 wrote...

Kasces wrote...

He would have gone to the Alliance, been fed BS politics but instead of having resources or even being aware of the Collectors', in 6 or so years a brand new Reaper would have attacked the citadel and won.

For the Collectors to complete the Reaper, they would first have to harvest Earth. I just don't see that as being feasible.

The working with Cerberus plot would have made much more sense to me if they did what Nightwriter said here:

Nightwriter wrote...

Actually I would also have liked a scene where they use show-don't-tell to demonstrate Cerberus's value to us. 

Shepard is investigating colonies on his own and Cerberus sweeps in at the eleventh hour with ships and guns and fights the Collectors off. It really starts to sink in: Cerberus is the only one doing anything about this, the only one taking effective action.

As it stands now, I don't see a good reason why my Shepard wouldn't just shoot Jacob in the back after admitting to be with Cerberus. My Shepard doesn't know anything about the Collector threat, the new Normandy, or the lack of action by the Council or the Alliance. What could be known at that point however, is Cerberus's status as a rogue Alliance group and that Cerberus had abducted and experimented on Alliance soldiers as well as trying to kill Shepard. Railroading is fine so long as it's well explained and justified. 

Even if the squadmate's conjecture was true, not necessarily. The Collector Base was huge, could have had dozens of more Collector Cruisers. We just never had to see them because one always seemed to be enough to take out the Normandy, a prototype ship ahead of 95% of others. We would also have to take into account how well Earth is even defended. Of course I'm assuming alot.

Shepard didn't shoot Jacob because while under attack Jacob was the one helping him survive, Miranda was the one guiding him until she got cut off, and if your Shep listens to the logs, apparently whoever Jacob and Miranda belong too saved his life. Those are plenty of reasons to at least wait for the immediate threat to be done, and by the time that happened Shep has a choice to go or stay, which I talked about in my other posts.  Plus Cerberus only tried to personally kill Shepard in ME1 when Shepard intefered, if he even chose too. 

Modifié par Kasces, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[chris025657]

Kasces wrote...

Even if the squadmate's conjecture was true, not necessarily. The Collector Base was huge, could have had dozens of more Collector Cruisers. We just never had to see them because one always seemed to be enough to take out the Normandy, a prototype ship ahead of 95% of others. WE would aslo have to take intro account how well Earth is even defended. Of course I'm assuming alot.

Shepard didn't shoot Jacob because Jacob was the one helping him survive, Miranda was the one guiding him until she got cut off, and if your Shep listens to the logs, apparently whoever Jacob and Miranda belong too saved his life. Those are plenty of reasons at least for me. Plus Cerberus only tried to kill Shepard when Shepard intefered, if he even chose too. 

Kind of off topic, but Earth is huge and very well defended. Taking remote colonies of only a few hundred thousand is nothing compared to the billions on a homeworld like Earth. An major assault on Earth would also eliminate their secrecy. 

I suppose I can see what you're saying. However, I still don't feel they did an adequate job showing why Shepard must work with Cerberus.

[Kasces]

chris025657 wrote...

Kasces wrote...

Even if the squadmate's conjecture was true, not necessarily. The Collector Base was huge, could have had dozens of more Collector Cruisers. We just never had to see them because one always seemed to be enough to take out the Normandy, a prototype ship ahead of 95% of others. WE would aslo have to take intro account how well Earth is even defended. Of course I'm assuming alot.

Shepard didn't shoot Jacob because Jacob was the one helping him survive, Miranda was the one guiding him until she got cut off, and if your Shep listens to the logs, apparently whoever Jacob and Miranda belong too saved his life. Those are plenty of reasons at least for me. Plus Cerberus only tried to kill Shepard when Shepard intefered, if he even chose too. 

Kind of off topic, but Earth is huge and very well defended. Taking remote colonies of only a few hundred thousand is nothing compared to the billions on a homeworld like Earth. An major assault on Earth would also eliminate their secrecy. 

I suppose I can see what you're saying. However, I still don't feel they did an adequate job showing why Shepard must work with Cerberus.

True, but can that defense hold against Reaper tech?

Ultimately, it all comes down to....Bioware doing a better job in ME3 lol.

[Fixers0]

Well apearantly the Collector Cruiser isn't that strong as it only has one weapon, turns very slow, and even an unupgrade normandy can destroy it with a couple of hits, therfore i think that a Fleet of Alliance cruiser can destroy the Collector ship in seconds.

Modifié par Fixers0, 28 octobre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Whereto]

I always took it this way. You cant live every second of shepards life and sort of like AC1 and 2 you live just little moments of it. So there is a lot leading up to that moment but it is never stated because you would have to play the game for 24 hours and live every part. So as much as shepard is you, he or she still very much controls his or her path, just your filling in the important bits like battles and convos with important people that can change certain things.



Well thats my view anyway because a lot shepards life you dont control like eating and general talking to the crew concerning jobs abroad the ship.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lord_Caledore wrote...

The kicker for me was that you can ask TIM if you have a choice in investigating the Collector attacks, and his response, IIRC, is "You always have a choice, Shepard".

The irony being, of course, that we didn't.

At that point, BioWare is in a bit of a corner of their own painting.  Where does the story go if Shep just leaves? 

Really, if they wanted to stick with Shep dying (or nearly so, or whatever), and Cerberus bringing him back, what they needed to do was have Shep escape Lazarus Station alone -- Jacob and Miranda aren't there -- and make it to the Citadel on his own, only to find out that it's been two years and everyone thinks he's dead.  Then it becomes a matter of Shep finding himself with a choice between working with people he hates (Cerberus) or not investigating the disappearances.  Make the connection betwen the disappearances and the Reapers a bit more tantalizing -- something like "we had a buried intelligence probe on that world, and it picked up a signal similar to one recorded during Sovereign's attack on the Citadel". 

Well, I've always supported a choice to refuse to leave Cerberus immediately and refuse to work with them follwing Freedom's Progress at the latest, with Shepard taking the shuttle and heading back to the Citadel... followed by a short montage of scenes reflecting the Alliance's unwillingness to investigate, obstruction of Shepard's attempts to do anything, or a final piece with the Citadel in flames and the Citadel Relay opening to dark space.

Similarly, back on ME1, on Virmire a choice to try and rescue both companions would be available, but doing so would lead to Shepard's death and a similar scene foreshadowing the end of the galaxy.

Critical game-ending choice indeed. Reflect that some choices have to be made, and while 'choosing' otherwise might be possible, it is... severely detrimental to your mission.



Such choices should be rare, however, and blatantly obvious.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 octobre 2010 - 12:20 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

The more I think about it, the more the thing about the Collectors planning to attack Earth is either a Dumb Writing Moment, or an absolutely clear indication that the Collectors have a lot more than that one ship.



Because that one ship, as wicked as it is, would not be able to assault Earth, fill its pods, and get away. Not only does the Sol system have a permanent garrison fleet (it has to, seriously), there's also the fact that the entire Alliance navy is built around a rapid-reaction concept -- Alliance ships would be pouring out of the Charon relay and burning hard for Earth the entire time. And it would take days just to unload and load that many pods, not to mention filling them, fighting off the ground response, etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dumb writing moment more than the other.



Though, if we were allowed limited leave to introduce modest new abilities/avenues of attack...



-Engineer an emergency to lead the Alliance home fleet, or parts of it, away from Earth.



-The Collectors shut off the Charon Relay manually using 'dark switches' to prevent reinforcement (perhaps limiting travel to Reaper IFF's?).



-The Collectors pack the hull and cavities of the Collector Ship to the brim with space assets (Oculi especially) which they use to counter space forces. Smaller vessels, intended only to fight and die in the Sol system, can compliment numbers when deployed.



-Smuggle in indoctrination/husk devices/swarms ahead of time, to target key centers of organization and resistance and destroy anti-space defenses. Indoctrination, if possible, provides the 'infrastructure' of labor to load pods/what not while Collectors fight.



-LiberalEMP devices to shut down as much electronics as possible.



-Nuke/orbitally bombard 'hard' defenses that can't be immobilized by swarms/indoctrination/etc.



-Settle for what is needed to finish the Human Reaper, not everyone on the planet/solar system. That means that survivors can be left, and there might still be Alliance forces engaged in fighting when the Collectors withdraw.



A key thing is that they don't need to keep everything secret from this point on. Terminus colonies were overlooked, but Earth won't. People will know the Collectors are behind this. They just won't (barring Shepard and the Reaper IFF) be able to reach through the Omega 4 Relay, and then the Human Reaper can be finished.



I still don't think it likely, but the most un-demonstrated thing needed would be to close the Charon Relay and cut off communications, and even that isn't impossible: Charon Relay had to be reactivated, after all, which means it can be deactivated as well. Even if the entire Alliance navy abroad immediately starts the days/weeks/months long journey to get to Earth (however long it takes in story time: I wouldn't rely on the Codex numbers for FTL speed because many of those numbers are inconsistent with the plot emphasis), the Collectors could already be mostly done by the time the first reinforcements arrive.

[Oblarg]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dumb writing moment more than the other.

Though, if we were allowed limited leave to introduce modest new abilities/avenues of attack...

-Engineer an emergency to lead the Alliance home fleet, or parts of it, away from Earth.

-The Collectors shut off the Charon Relay manually using 'dark switches' to prevent reinforcement (perhaps limiting travel to Reaper IFF's?).

-The Collectors pack the hull and cavities of the Collector Ship to the brim with space assets (Oculi especially) which they use to counter space forces. Smaller vessels, intended only to fight and die in the Sol system, can compliment numbers when deployed.

-Smuggle in indoctrination/husk devices/swarms ahead of time, to target key centers of organization and resistance and destroy anti-space defenses. Indoctrination, if possible, provides the 'infrastructure' of labor to load pods/what not while Collectors fight.

-LiberalEMP devices to shut down as much electronics as possible.

-Nuke/orbitally bombard 'hard' defenses that can't be immobilized by swarms/indoctrination/etc.

-Settle for what is needed to finish the Human Reaper, not everyone on the planet/solar system. That means that survivors can be left, and there might still be Alliance forces engaged in fighting when the Collectors withdraw.

A key thing is that they don't need to keep everything secret from this point on. Terminus colonies were overlooked, but Earth won't. People will know the Collectors are behind this. They just won't (barring Shepard and the Reaper IFF) be able to reach through the Omega 4 Relay, and then the Human Reaper can be finished.

I still don't think it likely, but the most un-demonstrated thing needed would be to close the Charon Relay and cut off communications, and even that isn't impossible: Charon Relay had to be reactivated, after all, which means it can be deactivated as well. Even if the entire Alliance navy abroad immediately starts the days/weeks/months long journey to get to Earth (however long it takes in story time: I wouldn't rely on the Codex numbers for FTL speed because many of those numbers are inconsistent with the plot emphasis), the Collectors could already be mostly done by the time the first reinforcements arrive.

Completely unfeasible, they wouldn't even be able to reach the Charon relay before being destroyed.

They have *one* cruiser (I don't buy the "they had extras but only though they needed to use one" copout).  That cruiser was destroyed by a frigate wielding cruiser-class firepower (read the codex).  There's no feasible way that they could have ever expanded past the Terminus systems without their ship being destroyed and their entire plan failing.

And even if they had, by some magical chance, succeeded, it's not clear that a new reaper would have done any better than Sovereign.

The entire premise is absurd.

This is beside the point though - I completely agree that the intro to ME2 was clunky and rushed.  In fact, the entire plot of the game seems as if it were a hastily made "plan B" and not what was originally intended.

[Randy1012]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The more I think about it, the more the thing about the Collectors planning to attack Earth is either a Dumb Writing Moment, or an absolutely clear indication that the Collectors have a lot more than that one ship.

Because that one ship, as wicked as it is, would not be able to assault Earth, fill its pods, and get away. Not only does the Sol system have a permanent garrison fleet (it has to, seriously), there's also the fact that the entire Alliance navy is built around a rapid-reaction concept -- Alliance ships would be pouring out of the Charon relay and burning hard for Earth the entire time. And it would take days just to unload and load that many pods, not to mention filling them, fighting off the ground response, etc.

Agreed, except that the Collectors wouldn't even be able to reach Earth without first going through the Arcturus Relay (the primary relay for the Local Cluster), which is where the Alliance headquarters is located, along with its primary fleet. Even attempting to assault Earth would be a suicide run for the Collectors unless they have a whole fleet hiding somewhere.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oblarg wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dumb writing moment more than the other.

Though, if we were allowed limited leave to introduce modest new abilities/avenues of attack...

-Engineer an emergency to lead the Alliance home fleet, or parts of it, away from Earth.

-The Collectors shut off the Charon Relay manually using 'dark switches' to prevent reinforcement (perhaps limiting travel to Reaper IFF's?).

-The Collectors pack the hull and cavities of the Collector Ship to the brim with space assets (Oculi especially) which they use to counter space forces. Smaller vessels, intended only to fight and die in the Sol system, can compliment numbers when deployed.

-Smuggle in indoctrination/husk devices/swarms ahead of time, to target key centers of organization and resistance and destroy anti-space defenses. Indoctrination, if possible, provides the 'infrastructure' of labor to load pods/what not while Collectors fight.

-LiberalEMP devices to shut down as much electronics as possible.

-Nuke/orbitally bombard 'hard' defenses that can't be immobilized by swarms/indoctrination/etc.

-Settle for what is needed to finish the Human Reaper, not everyone on the planet/solar system. That means that survivors can be left, and there might still be Alliance forces engaged in fighting when the Collectors withdraw.

A key thing is that they don't need to keep everything secret from this point on. Terminus colonies were overlooked, but Earth won't. People will know the Collectors are behind this. They just won't (barring Shepard and the Reaper IFF) be able to reach through the Omega 4 Relay, and then the Human Reaper can be finished.

I still don't think it likely, but the most un-demonstrated thing needed would be to close the Charon Relay and cut off communications, and even that isn't impossible: Charon Relay had to be reactivated, after all, which means it can be deactivated as well. Even if the entire Alliance navy abroad immediately starts the days/weeks/months long journey to get to Earth (however long it takes in story time: I wouldn't rely on the Codex numbers for FTL speed because many of those numbers are inconsistent with the plot emphasis), the Collectors could already be mostly done by the time the first reinforcements arrive.

Completely unfeasible, they wouldn't even be able to reach the Charon relay before being destroyed.

Besides the fact the Alliance doesn't really know the Collectors until Shepard's intervention of Horizon?

They don't have to go by mass relays. They can do conventional FTL for the final approach. They have time.

They have *one* cruiser (I don't buy the "they had extras but only though they needed to use one" copout).  That cruiser was destroyed by a frigate wielding cruiser-class firepower (read the codex).  There's no feasible way that they could have ever expanded past the Terminus systems without their ship being destroyed and their entire plan failing.

They don't need the Collector Cruiser to do the fighting. The Collector Cruiser has a powerful weapon, but it's biggest value is transport.

And even if they had, by some magical chance, succeeded, it's not clear that a new reaper would have done any better than Sovereign.

Not have a Spectre named Shepard able to use the Conduit to follow it's attack at the last moment?

It wasn't like the Collectors were entirely alone, either. The Heretic virus would have changed all the geth into Heretics, giving the Human Reaper a larger army than Sovereign. We know that the Geth and Collectors have corrobarated since Sovereign's death.


Heck, I hadn't even thought of that: the Geth could have been the intended 'force' to enable the Collector attack on Earth. Keep their role hidden until the Heretic virus is unleashed, and then reveal it in a devestating first strike.