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Why do the opening events and the alliance with TIM feel wrong and rushed?


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#126
Oblarg

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

It wasn't like the Collectors were entirely alone, either. The Heretic virus would have changed all the geth into Heretics, giving the Human Reaper a larger army than Sovereign. We know that the Geth and Collectors have corrobarated since Sovereign's death.


Heck, I hadn't even thought of that: the Geth could have been the intended 'force' to enable the Collector attack on Earth. Keep their role hidden until the Heretic virus is unleashed, and then reveal it in a devestating first strike.


A conventional FTL final approach would take an unfeasible amount of time.  Think of the distances involved.

That aside, it's a pretty **** reaper plan B if their only remaining servants don't have the firepower to take out *one* frigate, never mind an entire ****ing fleet.  Do you really think Earth would be left with less firepower than was possessed by the Normandy, even if the fleet was needed elsewhere?  The Normandy's firepower with the Thanix cannon is described as "cruiser class," and that's a scaled-down version.  There's no feasible way that the Collectors alone would be able to penetrate alliance space with such a feeble force, FTL or no.

As for the Geth, it's also pretty feeble to rely on converting an entire sentient race to your side as a plan B.  Hell, the Geth were fairly close to stopping it on their own.

Then, if the human reaper had magically been finished, the only reason it posed a threat to the citadel was due Saren using the Conduit to infiltrate the control center and open the arms.  With the conduit now gone, what makes you think they'd even have a chance?  Especially now that at least the turian and human militaries have access to the same class of weapons that the reapers used (see the Thanix cannon - if it allows cruiser-class fire power for a frigate, I wonder what it'd do for a dreadnaught, eh?).

The enemy threat in ME2 was a complete and utter joke - it made the Reapers seem ill-prepared and weak, which is certainly not what you want to do to the big, scary villains of your series.

However, this is all off-topic.  The thread is about the opening sequence, which I agree is botched.

Modifié par Oblarg, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .


#127
Nightwriter

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What is this? No one is doing Numerator's exercise?

I'll do your exercise, Numerator. It sounds like fun. It is a lot to ask, but it's a lot to hear too. Are you sure you want all that?

#128
Blue Face Beast

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I personnaly liked most of the scenario in ME2. I have no complains and feel devs delivered a really compelling story. At times i felt there were some choices missing but i know it is impossible to program for every possible outcome and player wishes.



I have no problem at all with the opening sequence and i was very surprised to see Sheppard die and the Normandy being destroyed. It made me right away curious about what would follow. Waking up in the underattack station was really neat and a good way to put me right in the action ( the tutorial basically ). I am alittle annoyed that i never learned exactly why and who attacked the station but again my char is not omniscient and i moved on with Jacob and Miranda who both seemed trustworthy and friendly.



Then the Illusive Man explained the whole situation and i promptly agree to help because of the human abduction and because i felt i had a debt to him for rezzing me. See. We all have our own way to interpret the story. I never felt like i was in the wrong place and i liked the story all the way and would change nothing.



Its just my opinion thought. There is really no need spreading it around :)


#129
Slayer299

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I really was excited for ME2, I'd played ME1 three times and then I got to meet TIM and everything just felt flat after that. I was railroaded with no good reason to work for TIM and Cerberus. It was just 'you are, deal with it'.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Really, if they wanted to stick with Shep dying (or nearly so, or whatever), and Cerberus bringing him back, what they needed to do was have Shep escape Lazarus Station alone -- Jacob and Miranda aren't there -- and make it to the Citadel on his own, only to find out that it's been two years and everyone thinks he's dead.  Then it becomes a matter of Shep finding himself with a choice between working with people he hates (Cerberus) or not investigating the disappearances.  Make the connection betwen the disappearances and the Reapers a bit more tantalizing -- something like "we had a buried intelligence probe on that world, and it picked up a signal similar to one recorded during Sovereign's attack on the Citadel". 


Now, if either that or something similiar as been mentioned earlier occurred I'd have been ecstatic, but it didn't and it left me feeling like WTF, especially after the braindead-ness of either Council when you meet them...

#130
Nightwriter

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Something I didn't like is how TIM is immediately treated like the story Codex.

TIM is a stranger. BioWare shouldn't use him to provide exposition on the story like his word is to be taken as good.

I don't like how Shepard just sort of accepts Cerberus as his handlers, either. Cerberus handles Shepard from the beginning. Let's be clear. Cerberus handling Shepard is totally different than the Council or even the Alliance handling Shepard. I do not recognize Cerberus as an authority.

I am not going to take orders or missions from TIM like I would the Council. I am not going to let TIM go "here's your objective" like I would with the Council.

#131
The_Numerator

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Naturally. That is, naturally I'm interested. I'm going to fill it out myself. I just need to make it to the weekend first... Precious, precious free time.... I'm sorry. I can't explain more right now. I'm so tired. So very, very tired.

But yes, it's sad no one else is interested in deconstruction. Just a lot of wibbly-wobbly. To each their own, I suppose.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .


#132
SmokeyPSD

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I really don't agree that the Illusive man just becomes Shepard's "handler". That's like saying the council is Shepard's handler in ME1. Really naive and simplistic. No, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's an alliance, the road goes 2 ways. In the dire situation involving the collector's the Illusive Man needs Shepard but Shepard also needs him. He is without support from the Alliance and without the council.

#133
Nightwriter

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SmokeyPSD wrote...

I really don't agree that the Illusive man just becomes Shepard's "handler". That's like saying the council is Shepard's handler in ME1. Really naive and simplistic. No, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's an alliance, the road goes 2 ways. In the dire situation involving the collector's the Illusive Man needs Shepard but Shepard also needs him. He is without support from the Alliance and without the council.


I believe the Council is Shepard's handler. Before them it's the Alliance. In many stories there is some edifice or group which sort of handles and guides the character. It's not a bad thing.

The difference is that with the Council or Alliance, it's okay. 

#134
SmokeyPSD

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So pretty much, you just don't like the Illusive man and Cerberus. Nice.

#135
Nightwriter

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Btw, Numerator, I want to read yours first so I can sort of get a feel for the exercise and what's expected from it.

#136
Nightwriter

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SmokeyPSD wrote...

So pretty much, you just don't like the Illusive man and Cerberus. Nice.


Not at all. I would be fine with working with them if I am first shown it is necessary.

Working with a terrorist cabal just screams "last resort". Yet instead, it is the first resort. I should be able to ask the Council for help and be rejected before I agree to join Cerberus.

That way, when I do join them, I have not only exhausted all other options, I am angry at the Council and kind of respect Cerberus for being the only ones doing anything about the Collectors.

#137
SmokeyPSD

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but u are. through me1, the council is still not prepared to. and the illusive man shows you the evidence by a colony being attacked.

#138
RiouHotaru

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Nightwriter wrote...

Something I didn't like is how TIM is immediately treated like the story Codex.

TIM is a stranger. BioWare shouldn't use him to provide exposition on the story like his word is to be taken as good.

I don't like how Shepard just sort of accepts Cerberus as his handlers, either. Cerberus handles Shepard from the beginning. Let's be clear. Cerberus handling Shepard is totally different than the Council or even the Alliance handling Shepard. I do not recognize Cerberus as an authority.

I am not going to take orders or missions from TIM like I would the Council. I am not going to let TIM go "here's your objective" like I would with the Council.


Unless that's the point.  You're not supposed to take TIM at face value, and question whether he's a Reliable Narrator.  But again, we run into the limitations of game design and programming.  Hindsight is, as usual, perfect.

#139
Nightwriter

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SmokeyPSD wrote...

but u are. through me1, the council is still not prepared to. and the illusive man shows you the evidence by a colony being attacked.


Upon waking up from a zombie coma, my first and foremost thought is to find someone I know, because I am confused and I want to find familiarity. This is a human's strongest natural instinct.

Basically, I feel that TIM's job in this first conversation is to persuade me not to leave. To stay, and hear him out - to disobey this instinct. This should be the real focus of this conversation, yet it isn't. Since TIM is a stranger, and a terrorist, he needs to convince me that his information is not only worth checking out in the first place, but that it is more important to check it out than to find someone I know.

The most persuading TIM does is to say, "Go to Freedom's Progress, and if you don't find what you're looking for we can part ways." This is not enough. TIM should need to do some serious persuading just to convince Shepard it's worth looking into.

#140
Christmas Ape

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Technically speaking, the Council isn't an authority either. 'Council Law' is legally equivalent to a poster your cranky old neighbor put up on a telephone pole.

#141
RiouHotaru

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Christmas Ape wrote...

Technically speaking, the Council isn't an authority either. 'Council Law' is legally equivalent to a poster your cranky old neighbor put up on a telephone pole.


Good point.

#142
SmokeyPSD

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Shepard in my view, is stronger than that. He/She IS strong enough to at least hear The Illusive Man out. You go to freedom's progress, sure enough the Illusive Man is right. You aren't just "meeting" him. He resurrected you afterall.

#143
Nightwriter

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It's more of an authority than Cerberus.

It's about behaving like a servant. Behaving like the Council's servant is one thing; you are. Officially.

Behaving like Cerberus's servant...

#144
Nightwriter

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SmokeyPSD wrote...

Shepard in my view, is stronger than that. He/She IS strong enough to at least hear The Illusive Man out. You go to freedom's progress, sure enough the Illusive Man is right. You aren't just "meeting" him. He resurrected you afterall.


I do not protest going to Freedom's Progress. I just think you go a little too readily.

I want this conversation to be longer, I want it to take longer to convince me. I want TIM to have to work to stop me from just walking out and trying to find the Council. I want it to be hard for TIM. Especially since some Sheps are sole survivors.

I want to have one foot out the door, and then for TIM to say things like: "What if you walk away right now, and I was right? What if you're turning your back on a Reaper threat because it's 'far fetched' and you want to dismiss the source? Do you really want to become the Council, Shepard?" Instead this all plays out like Shepard has already agreed but the game is just going through the motions of “convincing” Shepard that s/he should do it.

#145
Christmas Ape

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Nightwriter wrote...
It's more of an authority than Cerberus.
It's about behaving like a servant. Behaving like the Council's servant is one thing; you are. Officially.
Behaving like Cerberus's servant...

If one believes the theory that Cerberus is an officially disavowed Special Operations Group quietly attached to Alliance Military Intelligence, which I find exceptionally plausible, they're closer to an authority than the Council. The Alliance is a legitimate government, at least.

#146
Nightwriter

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It has a lot to do with public perception of them, and my having played ME1 first.

The truth is I don't mind cooperating with Cerberus or "serving" them, I just think I start doing it a little too quickly. Like I said - rushed feeling.

I also feel they introduce the alliance with Cerberus before they have introduced the Collectors to us in a way that makes us think, "They must be stopped." 

#147
Collider

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The fact that the Akuze background is never addressed whatsoever when Shepard talks to TIM (or any other Cerberus person) seems to suggest to me that they either did not care or they didn't have time/resources (hehe) to do it. It definitely feels like something is missing in the beginning. Since I heard that at one point they wanted Legion to find Shepard's corpse or something along those lines, it's possible that the constant editing may have disallowed a few finishing touches.

#148
SmokeyPSD

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For me with the choices I picked I felt pretty antagonistic as it is toward him. I at least had already decided I was going to hear him out on the base while talking to Jacob even before I stepped onto the hologram deck.



I really do reject the idea of Cerberus's servant aswell. I felt less of a servant of Cerberus than I did the Council honestly. The Illusive Man brings you back with the objective of giving you a very, very long leash and backing you all the way. That doesn't compare to your dealings with the council at all. It feels like a proper two way alliance. Both benefit enormously. It most likely will end in tears, no matter what we all choose at the end of ME2 but the Collector's and the Reaper's the main threat against the entire galaxy. The stakes are extremely high. Only Shepard and The Illusive Man seem to truely understand this. The Illusive Man is prepared to do more than the Alliance and Council combined, every step of the way with Shepard.

The council however questions just about everything you do and finally when you do track down Saren and pull things into perspective, the Council has weak knees, completely. It's almost like the council did not really expect much from the first human spectre.



In the end you walk away from the council the moment you return to the citadel and it's grounded. You go against their authority.

#149
SmokeyPSD

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Um, why is the Akuze background not being talked about by The Illusive Man a negative? I've seen it mentioned a few times. Do people think it's linked to Collector's? There's absolutely no evidence of that.

#150
psienesis

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Council law, in Council space, is as solid a governing body you're going to find that spans half of a galaxy and uncounted trillions of people of various species. In the Traverse, where most of the set-pieces of ME2 are placed, the Council is a foreign state, who's laws don't apply.



Back on the Citadel, there's all of two people of any importance who know what really happened in ME1. Councilor Udina and his assistant, Admiral Anderson. Anderson is not a Councilor, he's just Udina's assistant. Udina is a politician, and supremely selfish and obviously a shrewd humanocentric idealist (which, basically, makes him and TIM the same). Udina doesn't listen to Anderson, Anderson has no political clout. All of the Councilors you convinced to help you fight the Geth and Saren died when you let their ship get blown up during Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. Udina has no interest in trying to tie the other races of the Council into a pact of war against an enemy in a region of space they don't control and haven't even seen. It's politically untenable for him, and also provides him with little immediate profit. Not to mention that, in ME2, the bulk of the Council's military might is human, so in a long or particularly violent conflict, Humanity has the most to lose, especially if the enemy is not attacking the colonies of other races. Even if such a war were to come about, Udina may fear that humans would be too weakened by its course to maintain a hold on the political power they had so recently gained. Thus... no Council help for Shep. Udina never liked you anyway.



Basically, there's two worlds at work here. There's however you played ME1, and then there is the "canonical" events that ME2 assumes. I didn't go that route in my ME1 play-throughs, but apparently I left the Council to die, left Adenko to die at Saren's Quick-Krogan-O-Matic lab and punched a baby or something. Whatever, this is the backstory we are presented with in ME2.



Me, I play "Grey Shep", making Paragon/Renegade choices based on whatever I feel is the right choice at the time. This keeps both scores right about the same throughout the game (though does, at times, deny choosing either of their dialog options). That said, Cerberus is not your enemy in the same way that the Geth or the Collectors or the Reapers are your enemy. Sure, you've had entanglements with them in the past, whenever one side got in the path of the other, but they're humans, with human morals, human emotions and human drives. Familiar. Understandable. They have things you can relate to and, if needed, exploit. Cerberus is my enemy only when Cerberus makes themselves my enemy, and they're apparently not enemy enough to pass on spending 4 billion credits to resurrect my frozen corpse *after* tipping of Liara and friends to rescue it from the Shadow Broker, who was going to sell my remains to the Collectors.



Act 1 plays out in the best way that it could have, given the constraints of the game and the fact that it had to be accessible to people who'd never played ME1. Seeing yourself die, your ship blow up, chaos and bloodshed, just to wake up in a laboratory with some weird glowy bits on your skin, is enough to provide the most basic, primary motivation to work with Cerberus: you owe them your life. Cerberus alone has offered you a chance to avenge your untimely end.



There is, of course, the unstated threat that Miranda hints at. She wanted to put in a control chip, but TIM said no. That doesn't mean you don't have a cortex bomb implanted in your skull. They've also got your DNA and a particularly fat file on all your adventures. They could just space-walk you, clone a few million copies, and through neural induction and implanted memories, remake you in the Cerberus image. Eventually, they might get one that works. There's all of 2 returning characters from ME1 recruited into the Normandy SR2 crew... and, to be honest, I almost never use Garrus for anything. Didn't in ME1, either. Like the character well enough, but there are other, better people to fill the role he takes in squad actions. The adventure can get along without him. Having the "real" Shep to recruit these people just makes it easier, not really required.



So, while the idea of escaping the lab alone to return to the Citadel only to find that you've been listed as MIA: Presumed Dead and a brand-new Council that isn't going to listen to you anyway and that ponce Udina firmly holding the reins of power, is interesting and, sure, would have been an interesting, alternate beginning, it really does nothing but add thirty minutes to an hour of travel and cut-scenes to put you right back at Cerberus Lab #2 with Jacob and Miranda and your long-distance call to TIM. From a pacing perspective, and from a design perspective for a player new to the series, I can see why they didn't go that route. It's unnecessary, because you get the same information from TIM, which Anderson confirms if and when you bother to go back to the Citadel to talk to him. If you've played ME1 before, you know that the Council moves but very slowly, and the galactic bureaucracy would tie you up in red tape until the Collectors were knocking on the door before you could even get the keys to a starship.