205 réponses à ce sujet

[SmokeyPSD]

go to the council first, even though you were resurrected at a cerberus facility, by cerberus and can only really escape with cerberus operatives. I don't know, this to me just feels like gripping at straws and just reading like someone kicking and screaming to work for like it or not, the only group as of the opening of ME2 that was in a position to fight and give you the means.

[SmokeyPSD]

I disagree that they acknowledge the reapers at the end wholesale at the end of ME aswell. only anderson does which I choose. none of the other council members do. they feel the victory is over now. only shepard and anderson feel the real fight is ahead.

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...
If Collectors can board the Normandy SR2, they can board the Normandy SR1.

The SR2 was shut down by the virus included in the Reaper IFF. The SR1 was engaged in evasive maneuvers.

And it's not about that, Christmas, it's about the impression the game gives the player.

And I got the impression it was all very much a back room private audience to bring the Alliance into the Council as quickly as possible so they could start fulfilling their rebuilding and defensive obligations as a Council race. It would seem our impressions varied.

[Nightwriter]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

go to the council first, even though you were resurrected at a cerberus facility, by cerberus and can only really escape with cerberus operatives. I don't know, this to me just feels like gripping at straws and just reading like someone kicking and screaming to work for like it or not, the only group as of the opening of ME2 that was in a position to fight and give you the means.

Smokey, it isn't fair that the Council refuses to help me because I'm working with Cerberus when I wasn't even given the opportunity to come to the Council first to begin with. I can't put it any plainer than that.

I'm always sad to see someone who accuses a forumite of complaining for complaining's sake just because it's complaining, but if that's the way you feel... I honestly am too weary now to fight anymore people on it. I am dearly sorry my involuntary disappointment is a hate crime.

[SmokeyPSD]

I'm putting forth the idea that it is fair to go to the Illusive Man when you do, but even if you don't I see no reasoning that the Council would be anymore forthcoming. You've just been brought back from the dead. By Cerberus, they have been so narrowminded in the past, what difference would it make. I never said your complaining for complaining sake, it's obvious your disappointed.



In my view, it is completely fair and reasonable how it plays out. I actually went to the council the first opportunity I had to explore. Ofcourse, I was welcomed the way you are.

[Nightwriter]

It's not about the Council being more forthcoming. I just want to hear them say "no" before I tell Cerberus "yes".

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Regarding the Council and Alliance being complete idiots in ME2 (something I dislike).

I think it works that they show mistrust against Shepard, mostly because TIM have sendt false intel suggesting that he faked his own death in order to work for Cerberus. But the whole "ah yes "reapers" " BS should have been dropped.

Instead of being disbelieving idiots. Should they perhaps instead change it so that they were severly crippled in the battle of the Citadel, and that the Batarians have begun to be more agresive as a result. Resulting in them not able to go in and defend the outer colonies, but atleast they still believe in the Reapers and are rebuilding their forces.

Would that work?

[Nightwriter]

I actually think they should have focused more on TIM leaking information to the Council/Alliance, and more clearly identified it as a possible cause of the Council's distrust.

And yes Lizardviking, I would've liked that much better. Much.

[SmokeyPSD]

I'm good with how it is. They are hurting from the battle of the Citadel, it's not stated directly in the meeting but the Alliance and Council both are having the same problems of recovering their fleets. It's not complete narrowsightedness they are working off. I believe that they never came onside with the Reaper threat to begin with. There was no retcon involved. The council simply through practical concerns and no further evidence are still not willing to take the leap that they are a real and present danger.

[Therion942]

psienesis wrote...


So, while the idea of escaping the lab alone to return to the Citadel only to find that you've been listed as MIA: Presumed Dead and a brand-new Council that isn't going to listen to you anyway and that ponce Udina firmly holding the reins of power, is interesting and, sure, would have been an interesting, alternate beginning, it really does nothing but add thirty minutes to an hour of travel and cut-scenes to put you right back at Cerberus Lab #2 with Jacob and Miranda and your long-distance call to TIM. From a pacing perspective, and from a design perspective for a player new to the series, I can see why they didn't go that route. It's unnecessary, because you get the same information from TIM, which Anderson confirms if and when you bother to go back to the Citadel to talk to him. If you've played ME1 before, you know that the Council moves but very slowly, and the galactic bureaucracy would tie you up in red tape until the Collectors were knocking on the door before you could even get the keys to a starship.

You seriously can't see how that completely annihilates any suspension of disbelief and immersion a player may have up until that point, that discussion with TIM, can you? You have no idea how jarring it is to see your character not acting like your character and instead acting like some puppet, can you? It is at this point where any actual roleplayer comes to the realization that he is no longer his avatar's thoughts, emotions, and justifications. When control is wrested from him and he is shoehorned into a scenario which makes about as much sense as a Panda driving a Go-Kart. The entire opening sequence is, essentially, one big sign that reads "****** off this our story, this is the new ****" and there is such jarring, awful shift from becoming the roleplayer to the director that it hurts the entire game's integrity before it actually starts. This is not how you write, there was no respect for the rhetorical triangle in the opening sequence.

[Christmas Ape]

Therion942 wrote...
You seriously can't see how that completely annihilates any suspension of disbelief and immersion a player may have up until that point, that discussion with TIM, can you? You have no idea how jarring it is to see your character not acting like your character and instead acting like some puppet, can you? It is at this point where any actual roleplayer

Snk. No True Scotsman. Invalid argument.

comes to the realization that he is no longer his avatar's thoughts, emotions, and justifications. When control is wrested from him [...] one big sign that reads "****** off this our story [...] shift from becoming the roleplayer to the director

Considering this describes Mass Effect's dialog system perfectly, I'm at a loss why you even bought 2. Mass Effect is pure director's chair RPG, and it was from the beginning; more involved than a JRPG, but less sandbox than Fable and less immersive-by-design than Elder Scrolls games.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:38 .

[SmokeyPSD]

In the end I found the beginning no less able to roleplay with and stay on the journey. I think in the end a lot of you guys are knawing at the edges of what in the end, was purely a overall direction choice. into the darkness with cerberus as there was no one else due to the context of the story. has nothing to do with execution, writing, freedom, how it played out. you guys just seem immensely unhappy with how every single thing played out. My suspension of disbelief was fine, my ability to roleplay was fine. my immersion level was at insane levels through mass effect 2, far surpassing mass effect 1. there were many times I caught myself thinking, god, i really want to get off this planet just to hear lance henrikson's voice in 1.



I thought it was a masterstroke. it could've gone any number of easier pathways. instead we got a real challenging sequel tone and situation wise. each to their own.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

go to the council first, even though you were resurrected at a cerberus facility, by cerberus and can only really escape with cerberus operatives. I don't know, this to me just feels like gripping at straws and just reading like someone kicking and screaming to work for like it or not, the only group as of the opening of ME2 that was in a position to fight and give you the means.

As I said in another post, the way around this is to have Shephard escape the destruction of Lazarus Station alone, and eventually be faced with the choice of working with the organization he hates (Cerberus) or getting no help at all.  That is, if you want to keep the death, the resurection by Cerb, and working with Cerb.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lizardviking wrote...

Regarding the Council and Alliance being complete idiots in ME2 (something I dislike).

I think it works that they show mistrust against Shepard, mostly because TIM have sendt false intel suggesting that he faked his own death in order to work for Cerberus. But the whole "ah yes "reapers" " BS should have been dropped.

Instead of being disbelieving idiots. Should they perhaps instead change it so that they were severly crippled in the battle of the Citadel, and that the Batarians have begun to be more agresive as a result. Resulting in them not able to go in and defend the outer colonies, but atleast they still believe in the Reapers and are rebuilding their forces.

Would that work?

Ten times better than Councilman Fingerquotes.

[Moiaussi]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SmokeyPSD wrote...

go to the council first, even though you were resurrected at a cerberus facility, by cerberus and can only really escape with cerberus operatives. I don't know, this to me just feels like gripping at straws and just reading like someone kicking and screaming to work for like it or not, the only group as of the opening of ME2 that was in a position to fight and give you the means.

As I said in another post, the way around this is to have Shephard escape the destruction of Lazarus Station alone, and eventually be faced with the choice of working with the organization he hates (Cerberus) or getting no help at all.  That is, if you want to keep the death, the resurection by Cerb, and working with Cerb.

Alternatively, Shepard could have called TIM's bluff, stayed on Lazarus, suppressed or deactivated the bots (they were in the bloody bot control room and didn't even look at the controls! Even if Shep is a ruddy engineer!!!) and found his own ride.

Edit: Btw, anyone else find it strange that they left on a shuttle rather than an actual ship?

Modifié par Moiaussi, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SmokeyPSD wrote...

go to the council first, even though you were resurrected at a cerberus facility, by cerberus and can only really escape with cerberus operatives. I don't know, this to me just feels like gripping at straws and just reading like someone kicking and screaming to work for like it or not, the only group as of the opening of ME2 that was in a position to fight and give you the means.

As I said in another post, the way around this is to have Shephard escape the destruction of Lazarus Station alone, and eventually be faced with the choice of working with the organization he hates (Cerberus) or getting no help at all.  That is, if you want to keep the death, the resurection by Cerb, and working with Cerb.

Alternatively, Shepard could have called TIM's bluff, stayed on Lazarus, suppressed or deactivated the bots (they were in the bloody bot control room and didn't even look at the controls! Even if Shep is a ruddy engineer!!!) and found his own ride.

Edit: Btw, anyone else find it strange that they left on a shuttle rather than an actual ship?

The Kodiak seems to be have plot FTL.  See also, the "we all have to take the shuttle" pseudo-mission.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

I'm good with how it is. They are hurting from the battle of the Citadel, it's not stated directly in the meeting but the Alliance and Council both are having the same problems of recovering their fleets. It's not complete narrowsightedness they are working off. I believe that they never came onside with the Reaper threat to begin with. There was no retcon involved. The council simply through practical concerns and no further evidence are still not willing to take the leap that they are a real and present danger.

Yes it is a retcon. Didn't you pay attention to the ending of ME1? They acknowlegded Sovereign and the Reapers as real. Even if they didn't believe in the Reapers it still completely illogical to not do ANYTHING. Face it, the council and alliance were given the idiot ball because Walters coulnd't come up with anything conviencing.

Also please notice this..

Council claims Sovereign was a Geth ship.
Council also claims that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.....

So their theory is based on the theory that Saren was somehow charismatic enough to convience the Geth (a hyper-intelligent AI race) that the ship THEY BUILD was something else entirely.

This suggest to me atleast that.
A) They are retards due to being handled the idiot ball in ME2.
or
They are bluffing in front of Shepard, and know the Reapers excist. But given all the clues and hints in the game, this theory seems highly unlikely.

I had no problem with working for Cerberus in ME2, I welcomed because I thought it could for an interesting story (working for shady people). All I needed was a convincing reason for working for them, too bad the reason we're given is completely stupid.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lizardviking wrote...
Also please notice this..

Council claims Sovereign was a Geth ship.
Council also claims that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.....

So their theory is based on the theory that Saren was somehow charismatic enough to convience the Geth (a hyper-intelligent AI race) that the ship THEY BUILD was something else entirely.

DOH! 

Nice catch.

[Nozybidaj]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Regarding the Council and Alliance being complete idiots in ME2 (something I dislike).

I think it works that they show mistrust against Shepard, mostly because TIM have sendt false intel suggesting that he faked his own death in order to work for Cerberus. But the whole "ah yes "reapers" " BS should have been dropped.

Instead of being disbelieving idiots. Should they perhaps instead change it so that they were severly crippled in the battle of the Citadel, and that the Batarians have begun to be more agresive as a result. Resulting in them not able to go in and defend the outer colonies, but atleast they still believe in the Reapers and are rebuilding their forces.

Would that work?

Ten times better than Councilman Fingerquotes.

Or if you were Paragon Shepard have them believe you, tell you "sorry no jurisdiction" about the Colonies disappearing, then sending you to work with Cerberus as their agent to 1) Stop the Collector attacks and 2) Spy on Cerberus.

I find it hard to believe that the Council would pass up such a golden opportunity to gain knowledge of Cerberus and TIM if they have a willing and able Shepard standing there in front of them.

[SmokeyPSD]

No their theory is that it's just plain Geth technology as there wasn't enough of it left to show otherwise. The rest is justification for their stance. It's postering nothing more. It's a nice little so called paradox you think you've found but it isn't really, the 2 statements aren't really linked.



I was paying attention to the end of ME1 thank you, they hardly acknowledged anything. Only Shepard and Anderson did.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Lizardviking wrote...

SmokeyPSD wrote...

I'm good with how it is. They are hurting from the battle of the Citadel, it's not stated directly in the meeting but the Alliance and Council both are having the same problems of recovering their fleets. It's not complete narrowsightedness they are working off. I believe that they never came onside with the Reaper threat to begin with. There was no retcon involved. The council simply through practical concerns and no further evidence are still not willing to take the leap that they are a real and present danger.

Yes it is a retcon. Didn't you pay attention to the ending of ME1? They acknowlegded Sovereign and the Reapers as real. Even if they didn't believe in the Reapers it still completely illogical to not do ANYTHING. Face it, the council and alliance were given the idiot ball because Walters coulnd't come up with anything conviencing.

Also please notice this..

Council claims Sovereign was a Geth ship.
Council also claims that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.....

So their theory is based on the theory that Saren was somehow charismatic enough to convience the Geth (a hyper-intelligent AI race) that the ship THEY BUILD was something else entirely.

This suggest to me atleast that.
A) They are retards due to being handled the idiot ball in ME2.
or
They are bluffing in front of Shepard, and know the Reapers excist. But given all the clues and hints in the game, this theory seems highly unlikely.

I had no problem with working for Cerberus in ME2, I welcomed because I thought it could for an interesting story (working for shady people). All I needed was a convincing reason for working for them, too bad the reason we're given is completely stupid.

I agree to the notion of the council (all of the authorities, for that matter) are holding out in their talks with Sheppard. After all, things like the thanix cannon came about from research on Sovereign, so people must've figured out that reapers had to exist. For instance, in the game, EDI is instantly able to the origin of the collector drone in the pod, and how it was modified... It's just unthinkable that council scentists wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Reaper and Geth technologies after having more than a year to throughly dissect and reproduce their respective technologies.

But I guess we'll have to see how things turn out in ME3 to know for sure.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

SmokeyPSD wrote...

No their theory is that it's just plain Geth technology as there wasn't enough of it left to show otherwise. The rest is justification for their stance. It's postering nothing more. It's a nice little so called paradox you think you've found but it isn't really, the 2 statements aren't really linked.

I was paying attention to the end of ME1 thank you, they hardly acknowledged anything. Only Shepard and Anderson did.

But if they don't really believe it then why? Why say that Saren convinced the Geth that the Reapers were real if they don't think it's really the case. Why didn't they just say "Sovereign was a geth construct and they co-operated with Saren because he was a former spectre who had resources to help them"?

[SmokeyPSD]

I really just don't understand what your saying. that's pretty much WHAT the council said in the first place with the information in the meeting.

[SmokeyPSD]

I see what the problem that's formed is. The council is separating out the ship and the reapers that's all. that's why it always made sense to me. saren convincing the geth in their mind, and in turn shepard but in different ways that's all. Shepard believing in the ship, it does not immediately follow the Geth believing in the ship. Your trying to force the statements together when they really aren't that closely related.

[Nightwriter]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Or if you were Paragon Shepard have them believe you, tell you "sorry no jurisdiction" about the Colonies disappearing, then sending you to work with Cerberus as their agent to 1) Stop the Collector attacks and 2) Spy on Cerberus.

I find it hard to believe that the Council would pass up such a golden opportunity to gain knowledge of Cerberus and TIM if they have a willing and able Shepard standing there in front of them.

Oh this sounds wonderful. Wonderful. I weep.