145 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

 I'm referring to the IGN review of Mass Effect 2. In their review, one of the negatives of ME2 was that it was overly referential to ME1. They gave ME2 a 9.7, and the only negatives were that it was overly referential, and had minor bugs; which leads me to believe that ME2 could have potentially gotten a 10 if it wasn't as referential. Seeing as IGN is one of the King Pin reviewers out there, do you guys think that Bioware will take this criticism to heart?

Because in my personal opinion, that is the poorest excuse of a negative i've ever heard. Making ME3 even more standalone is the absolute worst direction you can take the epic ending of a trilogy. Casey Hudson has said multiple times that ME3 will be a standalone game, but how "standalone" do you think they are willing to take ME3 while still keeping it's identity, to cater for new players? ME2 was standalone enough with barely any references, will ME3 have even less referential material?

[lovgreno]

I suppose it would be easier to make choices from the two first games count more in ME3 since they don't have to consider how the story will develop after the ending scene.

[Nightwriter]

Gibb, I don't think I've ever read a review so horrendous, I have the desire to burn down IGN headquarters just to erase the article from existence before BioWare sees.

BioWare, ME2 WAS NOT REFERENTIAL ENOUGH TO ME1.

Christ, I was scandalized by how much I felt like ME1 ceased to matter in ME2.

[Christmas Ape]

As a game review, it's a perfectly valid complaint. Designed as a standalone game, reviewed as a standalone game. That everybody's cranky the trilogy isn't taking the shape they want doesn't really enter into it.

[Nightwriter]

Course it does. BioWare should accommodate new players without punishing old players.

[Christmas Ape]

When did everyone start confusing "didn't reward me as much as I want" with "punished me"?

[MajFauxPas]

Obviously the reviewer didn't play ME1 and found that ME2's reliance on ME1 was detrimental to his experience because he hadn't played ME1.



It's like seeing Empire Strikes Back first.....

[Nightwriter]

'Bout the time we all agreed the reset of the game made the events of ME1 meaningless and impotent.

[Mister Mida]

I don't get how anyone can find ME2 'overly referential', unless you can't be bothered with reading the codex and totally forget the '2' at the end of game title. ME2 is practically a reboot, so I don't get what they're nagging about.

[Ieldra]

lovgreno wrote...
I suppose it would be easier to make choices from the two first games count more in ME3 since they don't have to consider how the story will develop after the ending scene.

Exactly that is what someone from Bioware said - don't recall who - in an interview. It's unclear how much they'll really make old decisions count, but he sounded very excited about the possibility for widely diverging outcomes and not being restricted by necessary railroading for the next game. I think they want to do this.

Gameplay-wise, I would prefer to continue seamlessly, but I could live with being reset to level 10 or so. That's just gameplay - I can live with some gameplay/story segregation if it makes the overall experience better.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 octobre 2010 - 09:03 .

[Aggie Punbot]

I don't know about that IGN reviewer, but I like my game sequels to be sequels, not just completely unrelated games with a franchise title on it. Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games of all time because it's a sequel that actually continues the story of the character that I had invested a lot of time and affection in.

Thank you, Bioware, for allowing us to continue Shepard's story in ME2 instead of just shunting him/her to the side in favor of someone else.Thank you for being a friend, traveling down the road and back again...etc. etc.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 25 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[philiposophy]

I don't see how you can legitimately criticize a sequel for being referential to its predecessor. What do you expect?

[Christmas Ape]

I don't know about that IGN reviewer, but I like my game sequels to be sequels, not just completely unrelated games with a franchise title on it.

Then you've been spoiled by Mass Effect, because I can't think of a single game beforehand in which decisions from the first game impacted the sequel. I'm willing to proven wrong, but I bet for every example of connected sequels one could find there's a dozen that are even less connected than Mass Effect/Mass Effect 2.

[Nightwriter]

Of course we're spoiled. We've been listening to their marketing. If BioWare has issues about our expectations they should take it up with their marketing department and the things it's been telling us.

CARRYOVER CHOICES

THE ABILITY TO SHAPE YOUR UNIVERSE

INNOVATIVE TRILOGY GAMING

SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS RIPPLE THROUGH SPACE!

[Christmas Ape]

Okay, well, that completely dodges my point - that suggesting you prefer a trend that didn't exist before now and to my knowledge is composed of only one game and its sequel is being disingenuous - but regardless.



Notice where it says trilogy? That means three. If someone hands me three wallets and tells me there's $50 inside, I don't get to call him a liar after checking in two of them. Well, I mean I can, but no-one should take me seriously when I do.

[Nightwriter]

Obviously I'm saying it has nothing to do with any trend and everything to do with what was advertised and therefore what was expected. If you asked me honestly, I'd probably say BioWare hyped up the choice consequence aspect of their game beyond what they, or any development company, could realistically deliver.

Your wallet analogy is perplexing.

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...
Obviously I'm saying it has nothing to do with any trend

Right, but that's the comment I was responding to, about having a preference for a connection between sequels that's basically unknown in the industry. This is not the first time we've done this dance, I think.

and everything to do with what was advertised and therefore what was expected. If you asked me honestly, I'd probably say BioWare hyped up the choice consequence aspect of their game beyond what they, or any development company, could realistically deliver.

Felt the same about the "complete the missions your way!" advertising for Assassin's Creed. They're brutally linear. Still fun, even if ACII makes the first one feel like a beta test for the real game.

Your wallet analogy is perplexing.

You were offered a trilogy in which your choices shape the setting and carry weight in subsequent games. Besides the fact that this did happen - just not as much as people wanted, because everyone wanted the Mass Effect 2 that would be created using their save file and their Shepard as a reference point, damn the other ~million people needed to make the game a success - it's not over yet. We've only opened two empty wallets - odds are the $50 is in the one we haven't checked yet.

I don't want wall-to-wall consequences for ME1 in ME2, and then have ME3 be all about ME2 choices. Some things should take time to come back to Shepard. Events are set in motion that become an issue even later. ME2 felt a little like the entire universe was waiting for Shepard to come back. If anything, I felt there was too much email, not enough "That sounds familiar and ominous..." newscasts for my tastes.

But hey. Different strokes.

[Collider]

Bioware themselves have said that they look at the big-name reviews. Will they take this particular criticism to heart? Who knows. But it seems clear that they've taken some of the big-name review criticisms to heart, as well (perhaps ot a lesser extent) the criticisms of the fans or lesser names themselves.

[Therion942]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wait you're serious, let me laugh harder

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Asheer_Khan]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Okay, well, that completely dodges my point - that suggesting you prefer a trend that didn't exist before now and to my knowledge is composed of only one game and its sequel is being disingenuous - but regardless.

Notice where it says trilogy? That means three. If someone hands me three wallets and tells me there's $50 inside, I don't get to call him a liar after checking in two of them. Well, I mean I can, but no-one should take me seriously when I do.

Actually i too very well remember (it was time before EA took over ME franchise) Bioware heads promise that ME series  will be hard line trilogy and ALL CHOICES from ME 1 will have HEAVY IMPACT on two next games.

Then EA took over, turn ME in stand alone games, Drew karpyshyn team was switched to ToR and Mac Walters took over throwing out of the window Drew's plans for whole series...

It's made me really sad that "curse of sequels" (started with KoTOR 2  (i known that this wasn't bioware game but it's still consider as sequel to KoTOR) extended on NWN 2 ) still hang over Bioware games...

[Christmas Ape]

Actually i too very well remember (it was time before EA took over ME franchise) Bioware heads promise that ME series will be hard line trilogy and ALL CHOICES from ME 1 will have HEAVY IMPACT on two next games.

Let's assume I take your anecdotal evidence as truth.

Then yes, Night is right, what they promised you was well beyond the capacity of the medium to deliver.

[Jigero]

people take IGN reviews seriously? IGN is the red headed step child of the professional review community.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Of course we're spoiled. We've been listening to their marketing. If BioWare has issues about our expectations they should take it up with their marketing department and the things it's been telling us.

CARRYOVER CHOICES

THE ABILITY TO SHAPE YOUR UNIVERSE

INNOVATIVE TRILOGY GAMING

SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS RIPPLE THROUGH SPACE!

And they did.

The universe of Mass Effect does change by your actions: you get it more from the lore and the news about how the galaxy is running. You do have carry over choices, they do shape the context of the universe, it is a pretty new idea to try and implement, and we are seeing consequences and implications travel with us.

The game play doesn't change much, but that's a different bird entirely, and something they didn't promise.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Of course we're spoiled. We've been listening to their marketing. If BioWare has issues about our expectations they should take it up with their marketing department and the things it's been telling us.

CARRYOVER CHOICES

THE ABILITY TO SHAPE YOUR UNIVERSE

INNOVATIVE TRILOGY GAMING

SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS RIPPLE THROUGH SPACE!

And they did.

The universe of Mass Effect does change by your actions: you get it more from the lore and the news about how the galaxy is running. You do have carry over choices, they do shape the context of the universe, it is a pretty new idea to try and implement, and we are seeing consequences and implications travel with us.

The game play doesn't change much, but that's a different bird entirely, and something they didn't promise.

[Asheer_Khan]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Actually i too very well remember (it was time before EA took over ME franchise) Bioware heads promise that ME series will be hard line trilogy and ALL CHOICES from ME 1 will have HEAVY IMPACT on two next games.

Let's assume I take your anecdotal evidence as truth.
Then yes, Night is right, what they promised you was well beyond the capacity of the medium to deliver.

I am not sure if you did participate in old forum activity, but i remember there in dawn of ME 2 how devs were bombarded with questions about "to keep or not to keep ME 1 saves"  and Bioware's answer was always this same "KEEP SAVES because they will be important"

So i ask WHERE ARE THOSE IMPORTANT ME 1 CHOICES?

Taking aside entire "cerberus uber alles" idiocy all ME 1 meetings (rachni messenger (as consequence of sparing Rachni Queen), Giana, Shiala, Fist, Hellena Blake and even Conrad "wanabe Shepard" Verner could be set up via dialog tree during shuttle ride right after Lazarus (as Obsidian did with KoTOR 2).

Now, after Bioware's really moronic move with LoTSB in relation to some EU countries i start to be really worried that i will be in matter of fact again FORCED by them to purchase E - version of ME 3 to be 100% sure that i will have fully compatible game with future DLCs.

That's why from now on everything what CHudson or any other Bioware representative says i treat with "AH YES..." approach.<_<

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 25 octobre 2010 - 10:51 .