145 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

cachx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Of course we imported! We wanted our experiences to mean something.

But it is surprising! from a videogame producer standpoint.

Most players never finish the game they start.
Most players never bother with expansions or extra material.

We are actually a rarity =/

ME is also the first game that puts emphasis on the whole savegame transfer thing and works it to such extent (as much as we love to complain that is not enough). I remeber the old Suikoden games to have a similar feature but can't recall if other games did this.

And now that I think about it, how many game series follow a single story with the same characters, without reeboting or going prequel? not many.

Yeah but their surprise just feels like it truly reveals that they didn't make ME2 for ME1 players.

I know, I know, I'm probably being silly... just feels that way is all...

[Moonbox]

Nightwriter wrote...

Moonbox, that is... harsh. I see where you're coming from, but it's a bit harsh. ME2 did have some redeeming features, they just didn't make up for what it did wrong.

It had better graphics.  It had deeper character background.  It had better combat and gameplay.  I can't deny any of that.  It had a lot of good ideas.  In my mind, however, the game was as you say, a tragedy.  It was a tragic failure in story telling and the writers and producers should be embarrassed.

Nightwriter wrote...
And I loved DA:O, I think it's the game ME2 could've been.

I liked Dragon Age.  I didn't love it.  I enjoyed the tactical combat.  It reminded me of Baldur's Gate, which I loved.  I think the story for the game was pretty recycled (nobody should be able to deny that) but it was a solid title.  I thought ME1 was leaps and bounds above DA:O, and DA:O was leaps and bounds above ME2. 

[Phaedon]

Well it could work that way:



A vanilla new ME3 game wouldn't be referential at all and the imported ME3 game would be full of references.



Or instead, Bioware could make a better introduction.

[Lord Nicholai]

Nightwriter wrote...

And I loved DA:O, I think it's the game ME2 could've been.

If thats the way you feel then its no wonder you don't like ME2. I'm glad ME2 is not the number-crunching RPG that most people here were hoping for

[Nightwriter]

In all honesty, DA:O's actual story wasn't that inspired, the darkspawn weren't a terribly compelling enemy. But DA:O succeeds as a superb example of a character driven story, which is what ME2 was supposed to have been, really.

DA:O was good because of the characters. It was good because of how involved the characters were in the whole game. ME2 could've done the same thing, but unfortunately I don't think I've ever played a BioWare game where the characters felt less involved.

[wizardryforever]

Moonbox wrote...
ME2 really didn't have any redeeming features IMO and I haven't played it since February and probably won't load it up again. 

Curious.  Why exactly are you here commenting on a game that you probably will never play again?  What drives someone to come onto a game's forum and just bash it repeatedly, months after they've completely stopped playing it?  Is it an ego thing (everyone needs to know my opinion on this!)?  Boredom?  Cynical proselytizing? 

Game carryover is a great thing that should be expanded if possible.  But keep in mind that very few games do anything remotely like this, and even then not to the scale of ME2.  We need to keep in perspective that this is a relatively new phenomenon and that the forums don't really provide an accurate sample of the mindset of most who play the game.

[NitrAce]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Seeing as IGN is one of the King Pin reviewers out there, do you guys think that Bioware will take this criticism to heart?

There's your problem right there, IGN. 
I hope their review doesn't carry too much weight with Bioware. 

[Christmas Ape]

You know, we already beat that Casey Hudson quote to death...last month, was it? About three days after it was released to us, anyway. I believe we even got some confirmation that what was meant was "Less of ME1's talking heads, more body language and dynamic conversations". I don't bother to keep links of things like that around, but that comment made its way around the forums like a bullet train when it hit.

[Shadesofsiknas]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Which is exactly what they were trying to convey. At least that's what i understood from a couple of interviews. ME2 steers in the direction of comics and this underlined by all the ME-comics that are being released. Too bad for people that prefer a more realistic approach to story telling.

Thats because the new lead writer is a comic book writer.

Its like they sent all the talent(Drew & Daniel) to write on TOR and left the reserve team to get ME2 over the line.

In fairness the guy who wrote the LOTSB did a good job(cant remember the name?) and I would like to see him given a larger role in ME3.

Please Bring back Drew to oversee ME3.

Ive read the first 2 ME books recently and I am finishing the last book of the Darth Bane trilogy at the moment and I have enjoyed them alot as Drew is getting stronger as an author with each book. I have ME Retribution sitting here waiting to go and I cant wait.

[Pocketgb]

Shadesofsiknas wrote...
Please Bring back Drew to oversee ME3.

Yeup. While I overall enjoyed ME2's story, it's hard to pick up where Drew left off, and it's even harder to come close to topping what he creates.

[ShadyKat]

NitrAce wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Seeing as IGN is one of the King Pin reviewers out there, do you guys think that Bioware will take this criticism to heart?

There's your problem right there, IGN. 
I hope their review doesn't carry too much weight with Bioware. 

IGN wasn't the only video game website that gave ME2 great reviews. Pretty much all of them did.

[Jebel Krong]

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Which is exactly what they were trying to convey. At least that's what i understood from a couple of interviews. ME2 steers in the direction of comics and this underlined by all the ME-comics that are being released. Too bad for people that prefer a more realistic approach to story telling.

Thats because the new lead writer is a comic book writer.

Its like they sent all the talent(Drew & Daniel) to write on TOR and left the reserve team to get ME2 over the line.

In fairness the guy who wrote the LOTSB did a good job(cant remember the name?) and I would like to see him given a larger role in ME3.

Please Bring back Drew to oversee ME3.

Ive read the first 2 ME books recently and I am finishing the last book of the Darth Bane trilogy at the moment and I have enjoyed them alot as Drew is getting stronger as an author with each book. I have ME Retribution sitting here waiting to go and I cant wait.

you are an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. for one mac walters only started writing the me comics after the games came out and the offer came in from dark horse... games are also a collaborative effort, so no one person is responsible if the writing is good/bad. drew is not a great writer - his novels are all very samey and filled with annoying characters.

[Shadesofsiknas]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Which is exactly what they were trying to convey. At least that's what i understood from a couple of interviews. ME2 steers in the direction of comics and this underlined by all the ME-comics that are being released. Too bad for people that prefer a more realistic approach to story telling.

Thats because the new lead writer is a comic book writer.

Its like they sent all the talent(Drew & Daniel) to write on TOR and left the reserve team to get ME2 over the line.

In fairness the guy who wrote the LOTSB did a good job(cant remember the name?) and I would like to see him given a larger role in ME3.

Please Bring back Drew to oversee ME3.

Ive read the first 2 ME books recently and I am finishing the last book of the Darth Bane trilogy at the moment and I have enjoyed them alot as Drew is getting stronger as an author with each book. I have ME Retribution sitting here waiting to go and I cant wait.

you are an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. for one mac walters only started writing the me comics after the games came out and the offer came in from dark horse... games are also a collaborative effort, so no one person is responsible if the writing is good/bad. drew is not a great writer - his novels are all very samey and filled with annoying characters.

Oooh who has their panities in a bunch? Are you Mac in disguise?

[Moiaussi]

Jebel Krong wrote...

you are an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. for one mac walters only started writing the me comics after the games came out and the offer came in from dark horse... games are also a collaborative effort, so no one person is responsible if the writing is good/bad. drew is not a great writer - his novels are all very samey and filled with annoying characters.

And yet, with a change of writers, Udina is just as annoying, the Council are more annoying, the Vermire survivor is more annoying, Garrus tosses any character development from ME1 out the window (and is thus arguably more annoying, at least for paragons), Liara is annoying pre- LotSB.... Who are all these new, better written characters, exactly?

Individual milage may vary... you may personally prefer the writing in ME2.  Not so sure how many else do, though...

[Jebel Krong]

udina/council are the same - you complain when there isn't continuity and complain when there is - can me2 catch a break? apparently not...



garrus is much better in me2 thanks to all the stuff he went through in-between and during me2, he actually becomes a character, not a one-note cipher. yeah some of the old character got short-shrift, but the new ones more than made up for that - Mordin, Legion, Thane, Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, Grunt... and whose to say the old ones won't feature again in me3?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Jebel Krong wrote...

udina/council are the same - you complain when there isn't continuity and complain when there is - can me2 catch a break? apparently not...

garrus is much better in me2 thanks to all the stuff he went through in-between and during me2, he actually becomes a character, not a one-note cipher. yeah some of the old character got short-shrift, but the new ones more than made up for that - Mordin, Legion, Thane, Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, Grunt... and whose to say the old ones won't feature again in me3?

Since you seem to be a die-hard ME2 fan, i was wondering, do you think the "Overly referential" criticism is a true negative of ME2? Do you think ME3 should be more standalone and have less references to it's predecessors? 

[Asheer_Khan]

If ME 2 characters were so fantastic written... then why my Shepard fells so lonely on ship full of people until LoTSB and talk with Liara?



But on the other hand... if i see people on forum crying "WALLOFTEXT" at post having about 500 words then i really don't expect that they will have patience to read four "pages" of dialog tree with one in game character.



I remember that biggest negative accusation toward Tali at old ME forum was complexity of her dialogs - "she talking too much" - speaking general.

Now when in ME 2 her dialogs were "compressed" suddenly she become one of the favorites characters...



And that's why i starting to be little concern about success of SW ToR since according to Drew's team this will be pretty hard story driven MMO...

[Jebel Krong]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

udina/council are the same - you complain when there isn't continuity and complain when there is - can me2 catch a break? apparently not...

garrus is much better in me2 thanks to all the stuff he went through in-between and during me2, he actually becomes a character, not a one-note cipher. yeah some of the old character got short-shrift, but the new ones more than made up for that - Mordin, Legion, Thane, Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, Kasumi, Grunt... and whose to say the old ones won't feature again in me3?

Since you seem to be a die-hard ME2 fan, i was wondering, do you think the "Overly referential" criticism is a true negative of ME2? Do you think ME3 should be more standalone and have less references to it's predecessors? 

actually i am a fan of both games, and mass effect in general. there are some fundamental flaws in both games, they are just different for each.

as for references, personally i can live without a lot of the really small ones - odd characters returning, especially (diminishes the universe) - as a renegade player i tend to kill a lot of them anyway - what i would like to see is some of the bigger ones acknowledged. i can see why me2 found this hard at times, perhaps moreso than me3 will, even taking into account 2 games' worth of choices - i want resolution with surviving me1/me2 squadmates, even if we can't keep them as party members etc. THAT's the kind of reference i want.

i guess a simpler answer would be - i want it to have  more meaningful references to both me1 and 2, and that should be easier as the last part of the trilogy.

[Jebel Krong]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I remember that biggest negative accusation toward Tali at old ME forum was complexity of her dialogs - "she talking too much" - speaking general.
Now when in ME 2 her dialogs were "compressed" suddenly she become one of the favorites characters...

tali in me1 was simply "walking exposition" about the quarians. in some ways it was necessary, but it damaged her as a character. me2 didn't have that problem to overcome, and the focus on the characters and their development helped her despite her obvious adolescent hero-worship (plus she had 2 great missions). EDIT: and she became romanceable of course - probably the biggest factor in popularity terms.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Nightwriter]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If ME 2 characters were so fantastic written... then why my Shepard fells so lonely on ship full of people until LoTSB and talk with Liara?

The ME2 characters were great, they just weren't implemented well.

And LotSB delivers some of the best character-to-character interaction I've ever seen, it makes you appreciate how a conversation between two people should play out, so of course it tends to throw ME2 into a bad light.

[Shadesofsiknas]

Nightwriter wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If ME 2 characters were so fantastic written... then why my Shepard fells so lonely on ship full of people until LoTSB and talk with Liara?

The ME2 characters were great, they just weren't implemented well.

And LotSB delivers some of the best character-to-character interaction I've ever seen, it makes you appreciate how a conversation between two people should play out, so of course it tends to throw ME2 into a bad light.

Yep credit to Patrick Weekes for that I believe. Now Imagine if we had that quality of writing in all of ME2.

I loved ME2 but it could have been so much more in regards to the story.

[Habelo]

LoL. Did lord of the rings also get this kind of reviews? "DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND STORY, WAI DEY BE WALKIN WHIT RING"- you had to see the first one to understand the second one, ****ing **** movie.

[mopotter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If ME 2 characters were so fantastic written... then why my Shepard fells so lonely on ship full of people until LoTSB and talk with Liara?

The ME2 characters were great, they just weren't implemented well.

And LotSB delivers some of the best character-to-character interaction I've ever seen, it makes you appreciate how a conversation between two people should play out, so of course it tends to throw ME2 into a bad light.

Absolutely!  I enjoyed the characters in ME2 individually and I laugh every time I play LotSB, especially driving the flying car.

I like a game that has a beginning and an ending so the idea of a stand alone game doesn't bother me.  

But,  I think you mentioned this somewhere, I want the story to be a continuation of ME1 and I just didn't get this feeling with ME2.  i had fun playing ME2 and I got the whole reapers making new reapers idea, it just didn't work for me.  

I'm hoping ME3 does bring the story to it's conclusion and I'll be disappointed if it doesn't even if it's a great game.  

That being said, I do want them to continue the romance from ME1, and I guess from ME2 if they survived.  If they do anything to destroy this, I may not recover from the disappointment.  

[Lunatic LK47]

Moiaussi wrote...


Garrus tosses any character development from ME1 out the window (and is thus arguably more annoying, at least for paragons)?

Individual milage may vary... you may personally prefer the writing in ME2.  Not so sure how many else do, though...

Uh, Garrus lost his entire squad and got badly affected by it. I don't see how it exactly threw his character development out the window. It's as stupid as saying "I should just accept my family is killed by my best friend and should turn him over to the authorities."

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Getorex]

Nightwriter wrote...

cachx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Of course we imported! We wanted our experiences to mean something.

But it is surprising! from a videogame producer standpoint.

Most players never finish the game they start.
Most players never bother with expansions or extra material.

We are actually a rarity =/

ME is also the first game that puts emphasis on the whole savegame transfer thing and works it to such extent (as much as we love to complain that is not enough). I remeber the old Suikoden games to have a similar feature but can't recall if other games did this.

And now that I think about it, how many game series follow a single story with the same characters, without reeboting or going prequel? not many.

Yeah but their surprise just feels like it truly reveals that they didn't make ME2 for ME1 players.

I know, I know, I'm probably being silly... just feels that way is all...

Until and unless some Bioware code drones come here and say something to disabuse me of this, I DO believe that ME2 was straddling worlds. It both carried over (somewhat and rather experimentally) from ME1 but also was setup to be a standalone game (or a starter game) that newbies could run from without being expected to play ME1.

That sort of design spec puts limits on the game. They were also experimenting with unspoken "dialog" (gestures, postures, expressions). They probably focused enough on that to the point that actual dialog suffered some. I rather expect that their cubicle space is rather high-pressure and hectic. People calling out over cubicle walls, rushing from cubicle to office meeting, bean counters pressuring faster production, etc.

Tell ya'll what, I'M disappointed that ME2 didn't come with a full haptic body suit that could read my gestures and body position AND transfered some sensations to my body from the game (hits, collisions, etc). They didn't provide dead-on realistic dialog WITH gestures and expressions AND they didn't provide anything else I come up with over time that I think they should have.

Damn. I guess they really do suck.