139 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

On another site there was a post about most memorable gaming moments, and I was reflecting back on Half-Life.  When it came out in 1998, one of the things that really stood out was its hadling of sequences that in older games were typically done as videos.  In Half-Life, not only were they handled within the game engine, but the player actually continued to play through them, though (try as you might) you weren't able to affect the outcome of the scripted sequences.  The result was that you could witness narrative-shaping events without being reduced to a spectator, and I felt it really helped with the immersive feel of the game.

It's disappointing to me that most games have not followed that lead.  Although many games now use their game engine to generate cut scenes, they still stop the action and force you to watch.  In playing ME2, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm sitting watching the game for several minutes at a time.  I suppose it's much too late in the development for DA2, but I would really like to see BioWare make use of the less intrusive scripted sequence approach of the Half-life games.

[Mr. Man]

I actually prefer cut-scenes, it adds cinematic depth that I don't think could be achieved with simple scripted sequences. For example; I couldn't stand the scripted conversations in Assassin's Creed, which seems to be similar to what your describing.

Modifié par Mr. Man, 25 octobre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Seagloom]

BioWare seems to be heading in a direction that merges this concept with a traditionally fully passive approach. Instead of allowing us free reign to intervene during a cut scene, we sometimes get to affect the progression of events through dialogue choices. This usually takes the form of making a decision that affects a quest, though not always. Mass Effect 2 also introduced the Paragon/Renegade interrupt system. I am unsure if total freedom would be as valuable in their approach to RPGs as other games. I could see how this might work well in certain scenes while being awkward in others.



For example, let us say we had full control during the darkspawn ambush after lighting the beacon. How much a difference would it be in practice from simply watching our characters falter? Since the plot requires us to lose, we would probably be flooded with wave after wave of darkspawn until they knocked the party unconscious. Alternatively, we could keep fighting until Flemeth appeared and saved us in another cut scene. Certainly this serves to keep the player invested in the game, but the benefit in interaction may not outweigh the effort in creating artificial freedom. There are also moments where such freedom can seriously damage the dramatic tension of a scene.



I partially agree with your proposal. Rather, I agree expanded interaction is a good idea, but feel it should be approached carefully to avoid damage to the narrative's presentation. Half-Life belongs to an entirely different genre. As such, Valve had options BioWare might not here.

[maxernst]

At the very least, I would like them to stop grabbing my party and moving them at the beginning of every major battle.

[cachx]

I always prefer in-engine scenes over cinematics. (now mostly because .bik videos look awful).

[errant_knight]

maxernst wrote...

On another site there was a post about most memorable gaming moments, and I was reflecting back on Half-Life.  When it came out in 1998, one of the things that really stood out was its hadling of sequences that in older games were typically done as videos.  In Half-Life, not only were they handled within the game engine, but the player actually continued to play through them, though (try as you might) you weren't able to affect the outcome of the scripted sequences.  The result was that you could witness narrative-shaping events without being reduced to a spectator, and I felt it really helped with the immersive feel of the game.

It's disappointing to me that most games have not followed that lead.  Although many games now use their game engine to generate cut scenes, they still stop the action and force you to watch.  In playing ME2, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm sitting watching the game for several minutes at a time.  I suppose it's much too late in the development for DA2, but I would really like to see BioWare make use of the less intrusive scripted sequence approach of the Half-life games.

I never felt like I was watching too much in DA:O, although I did in Leliana's Song. Hard to tell what the balance will be in DA2, but I hope it's not as prevalent as it was in Leliana's song. Cinematics can make the action seem more dramatic when they work, but when they're too long, or force behavior, not so much. Then they detract, in my opinion.

[Seagloom]

maxernst wrote...

At the very least, I would like them to stop grabbing my party and moving them at the beginning of every major battle.

That would be nice. If nothing else it makes playing rogues less cumbersome. It is quite as annoying trying to prepare an ambush or sneak past, only to have party formation blown the moment your character steps over a trigger. Sadly I think we will never see this change due to way area encounters are designed. At least we can dream.

[kyles3]

Seagloom wrote...

For example, let us say we had full control during the darkspawn ambush after lighting the beacon. How much a difference would it be in practice from simply watching our characters falter? Since the plot requires us to lose, we would probably be flooded with wave after wave of darkspawn until they knocked the party unconscious. Alternatively, we could keep fighting until Flemeth appeared and saved us in another cut scene. Certainly this serves to keep the player invested in the game, but the benefit in interaction may not outweigh the effort in creating artificial freedom. There are also moments where such freedom can seriously damage the dramatic tension of a scene.

i suspect it would also seriously damage many players' poultice supply. would be cool, though; i've had a soft spot for the hopeless boss fight ever since beatrix in final fantasy ix.

[Mr. Man]

Seagloom wrote...

BioWare seems to be heading in a direction that merges this concept with a traditionally fully passive approach. Instead of allowing us free reign to intervene during a cut scene, we sometimes get to affect the progression of events through dialogue choices. This usually takes the form of making a decision that affects a quest, though not always. Mass Effect 2 also introduced the Paragon/Renegade interrupt system. I am unsure if total freedom would be as valuable in their approach to RPGs as other games. I could see how this might work well in certain scenes while being awkward in others.

For example, let us say we had full control during the darkspawn ambush after lighting the beacon. How much a difference would it be in practice from simply watching our characters falter? Since the plot requires us to lose, we would probably be flooded with wave after wave of darkspawn until they knocked the party unconscious. Alternatively, we could keep fighting until Flemeth appeared and saved us in another cut scene. Certainly this serves to keep the player invested in the game, but the benefit in interaction may not outweigh the effort in creating artificial freedom. There are also moments where such freedom can seriously damage the dramatic tension of a scene.

I partially agree with your proposal. Rather, I agree expanded interaction is a good idea, but feel it should be approached carefully to avoid damage to the narrative's presentation. Half-Life belongs to an entirely different genre. As such, Valve had options BioWare might not here.

I agree. I think that the way Mass Effect approaches it is perfect; you get the best of both Worlds (good, cinematic cut-scenes that you can influence directly with dialoge and the interrupts). One of the many benifits of a vioced protagonist is that it opens up many possibilities in how you approach such encounters. I think a VP is a sign that DA2 is going in the right direction.

[errant_knight]

Mr. Man wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

BioWare seems to be heading in a direction that merges this concept with a traditionally fully passive approach. Instead of allowing us free reign to intervene during a cut scene, we sometimes get to affect the progression of events through dialogue choices. This usually takes the form of making a decision that affects a quest, though not always. Mass Effect 2 also introduced the Paragon/Renegade interrupt system. I am unsure if total freedom would be as valuable in their approach to RPGs as other games. I could see how this might work well in certain scenes while being awkward in others.

For example, let us say we had full control during the darkspawn ambush after lighting the beacon. How much a difference would it be in practice from simply watching our characters falter? Since the plot requires us to lose, we would probably be flooded with wave after wave of darkspawn until they knocked the party unconscious. Alternatively, we could keep fighting until Flemeth appeared and saved us in another cut scene. Certainly this serves to keep the player invested in the game, but the benefit in interaction may not outweigh the effort in creating artificial freedom. There are also moments where such freedom can seriously damage the dramatic tension of a scene.

I partially agree with your proposal. Rather, I agree expanded interaction is a good idea, but feel it should be approached carefully to avoid damage to the narrative's presentation. Half-Life belongs to an entirely different genre. As such, Valve had options BioWare might not here.

I agree. I think that the way Mass Effect approaches it is perfect; you get the best of both Worlds (good, cinematic cut-scenes that you can influence directly with dialoge and the interrupts). One of the many benifits of a vioced protagonist is that it opens up many possibilities in how you approach such encounters. I think a VP is a sign that DA2 is going in the right direction.

I see it as the opposite, particularly in cutscenes. The last thing I want is the PC chatting away and emoting outside my direct control.

[TimelordDC]

I don't know what exactly you think is the difference between cutscenes and scripted sequences - cutscenes are scripted sequences created within the game engine but shown independently (note: they are not .bik movies).

The only advantage over a scripted sequence is that, at least in Dragon Age, you can control the outcome through dialogue choices (where implemented). The only difference a voiced protagonist makes here is that the cutscenes feel a lot more cinematic since the player is not a dumb actor anymore.



Further, even in a regular conversation, a particular line can be converted to a cutscene while the rest of the conversation followes the staged version. IMO, cutscenes are one of the most powerful features in the DA engine and I really like how Bioware has implemented them.

[Schuback]

Yeah and it's rude to walk around or jump up and down when others are talking.

[maxernst]

TimelordDC wrote...

I don't know what exactly you think is the difference between cutscenes and scripted sequences - cutscenes are scripted sequences created within the game engine but shown independently (note: they are not .bik movies).
The only advantage over a scripted sequence is that, at least in Dragon Age, you can control the outcome through dialogue choices (where implemented). The only difference a voiced protagonist makes here is that the cutscenes feel a lot more cinematic since the player is not a dumb actor anymore.

Further, even in a regular conversation, a particular line can be converted to a cutscene while the rest of the conversation followes the staged version. IMO, cutscenes are one of the most powerful features in the DA engine and I really like how Bioware has implemented them.

The difference is very simple. In a cut scene, you simply watch the action unless there happens to be a dialogue option.  The camera angle suddenly changes, and you no longer can move or change views.  Cut scenes right before a combat screw me up every time in the Mass Effect games as I struggle to figure out where I am, what direction I'm facing and where the opponents are, after the cut scene camera angle changes. Not all cutscenes have any dialogue, and in many of them (as Addai 67 indicates) your character says and does things without your consent, though this is less of a problem in DA:O than the ME games.  And I'm sorry, but why would your character always need to be polite and wait for people you know you're planning to fight finish what they have to say?

[TimelordDC]

I agree with the cutscene-right-before-combat issue. I don't like that at all, especially when my main character is a rogue or a mage [the one instance that really pissed me off was the final fight in the Werewolf lair when you side with them]

maxernst wrote...

And I'm sorry, but why would your character always need to be polite and wait for people you know you're planning to fight finish what they have to say?

It's partly a technical limitation. You can talk only to friendly groups and fight only with hostile groups. Most conversations fire a script to change the group/faction so that you can enter combat after the dialogue.

It's also partly a story-telling mechanism. Ever wondered why the villain always explains everything before the final combat? It's to make sure the plot is understood. The same way, in games, you might get a snippet of information that can be used to further the quest-line or simply to lend closure to an investigation/plot you've been working on.

Lastly, the dialogue might present you with a choice - one that you might not take but some others will. Since the game cannot know what you might choose, it has to pass this point before deciding that you are going to fight and firing the appropriate script to do that.



Can this be improved? Sure, it can. For DA2? I doubt it since not everything is being changed for DA2. I suspect the conversation/plot handling will remain the same though I would love it if they minimize the combat-after-cutscene instances.

[Brockololly]

At least with Origins, you had people complaining about the silent PC looking like a mute when it came time for the cutscenes. I love it in first person games like Half Life when they keep things in the player's perspective for the "cutscenes."

If BioWare were ever to do the whole silent PC thing again, it would be neat if maybe they switched to a first person view for dialogue and cutscenes still letting you move the camera and look around, especially since its a first person narrative in that case.



I just find that in ME the cinematics get too in your face and distracting when you're trying to focus on the narrative and not some obscure camera angle.

[Reaverwind]

TimelordDC wrote...

Can this be improved? Sure, it can. For DA2? I doubt it since not everything is being changed for DA2. I suspect the conversation/plot handling will remain the same though I would love it if they minimize the combat-after-cutscene instances.

Same here. I would really like to see Bioware dispense with the cliche exposition-before-combat altogether - by the time your party faces off against an antagonist, the plot should have already established the reasons for doing so. The ONLY time I want to see the cutscene prior is for those few unique bosses and where there's a possibility of avoiding combat through dialogue.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 26 octobre 2010 - 12:41 .

[LiquidGrape]

Scripted events is much more in line with the inherent narrative potential of the medium. So I'm a major proponent of it.

For DA2? Naw. It would just mess with the established technique.

[Mr. Man]

Brockololly wrote...

At least with Origins, you had people complaining about the silent PC looking like a mute when it came time for the cutscenes. I love it in first person games like Half Life when they keep things in the player's perspective for the "cutscenes."
If BioWare were ever to do the whole silent PC thing again, it would be neat if maybe they switched to a first person view for dialogue and cutscenes still letting you move the camera and look around, especially since its a first person narrative in that case.

I just find that in ME the cinematics get too in your face and distracting when you're trying to focus on the narrative and not some obscure camera angle.

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you. Uhh...

[Loc'n'lol]

Scripted sequences work better for first person games, with a strong emphasis on immersion : you are the character, he reacts on every input of your mouse and keyboard, and you witness the world through his eyes and ears, cinematics would break this immersion, by taking control of the character away from you and introducing an outside camera. They are generally used between chapters, when you have already released control of your character. Half-life is an extreme example in that you never leave the first person view. Ever.

On the other hand, in dragon age, you are viewing things outside of your character, you can and do halt the course of time at will, you move the camera around as you please, you are shaping a story and witnessing it as a spectator at the same time, scripted sequences could work, but will simply force you to have your party stand by while you watch. You will also most likely not get the exact camera angle you wanted, unless you pause, and pausing in the middle of a scripted sequence would probably ruin the effect. Cinematics make much more sense here.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 26 octobre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Mr. Man]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Scripted sequences work better for first person games, with a strong emphasis on immersion : you are the character, he reacts on every input of your mouse and keyboard, and you witness the world through his eyes and ears, cinematics would break this immersion, by taking control of the character away from you and introducing an outside camera. They are generally used between chapters, when you have already released control of your character. Half-life is an extreme example in that you never leave the first person view. Ever.

On the other hand, in dragon age, you are viewing things outside of your character, you can and do halt the course of time at will, you move the camera around as you please, you are shaping a story and witnessing it as a spectator at the same time, scripted sequences could work, but will simply force you to have your party stand by while you watch. You will also most likely not get the exact camera angle you wanted, unless you pause, and pausing in the middle of a scripted sequence would probably ruin the effect. Cinematics make much more sense here.

Fair enough. I agree that if simple scripted sequences were to ever work, it would be in a FPS. In an RPG like ME or DA it would make no sense. The game is in 3rd person anyway.

[Challseus]

Cutscenes all the way for me. They make up such a small % of actual game time, that when I do get one, I want to sit back and enjoy it. There were many scenes I really enjoyed in DAO, the war council at the Battle of Ostagar springing to mind. I wouldn't have wanted to be able to waltz around while that went on.

[maxernst]

Mr. Man wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

At least with Origins, you had people complaining about the silent PC looking like a mute when it came time for the cutscenes. I love it in first person games like Half Life when they keep things in the player's perspective for the "cutscenes."
If BioWare were ever to do the whole silent PC thing again, it would be neat if maybe they switched to a first person view for dialogue and cutscenes still letting you move the camera and look around, especially since its a first person narrative in that case.

I just find that in ME the cinematics get too in your face and distracting when you're trying to focus on the narrative and not some obscure camera angle.

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you. Uhh...

I don't see how having an interesting protagonist and making choices is affected by going to scripted sequences in place of cut scenes.  The cut scenes are already scripted sequences written in the engine--why do they have to control the camera angle and character position to give you dialog choices.  Maybe you wouldn't be able to have as much detail on animations if there was flexibility in the relative locations of the people, but they seem to be able to deal with you having different backgrounds and clothes etc.during dialog cut scenes with your companions without any difficulties.  I don't think cinematics are worth the decreased immersion and completely surrendering control of your character...or their disorienting effect in the ME games.

Besides, there are lots of cut scenes where you aren't making choices at all--pretty much any cut scene involving darkspawn, undead, or other mindless monsters. I don't really care in regular conversations, but they rarely have complicated cut scenes anyway. It's the situations that pop up in dungeons where my rogue is scouting ahead and it's seriously immersion-breaking for me and totally destroys my tactical set-up to suddenly be striding forward to talk to somebody with the rest of party magically appearing at my side.  It's not what my PC would do.

And after having played ME2, I can now see why people are worried that DA2 will be more like an interactive movie than a roleplaying game.    While I have said elsewhere that Bioware has always tended toward the cinematic in their games, i think they took it too far in ME2.

Going back to Half-Life, there were some great scenes--like when you're in the office complex and you can see the scientist through the window on the door about to be eaten by the barnacle.  There's another point where you first encounter the marines and what you see is the scientist thinking he's about to be rescued and then getting gunned down in front of you.  Even just the opening--you're on a train and can't really do anything but look around, but the (for the time) realistic environments and the audiotape informing you of job opportunities in various fields and finishing with "Black Mesa is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer" really added to the feeling of really being there.   I think the scenes are far more powerful because they don't stop the action and pull you out of the game to present them, they just happen in front of you, giving you the illusion that if you were just a little faster you could change things.  Sure, Half-Life's a different genre but I don't really see why the same style of presentation couldn't work.

As far as the war council, they could surely script Duncan to give you a severe talking to, if you decided to get up and walk around during that.

Modifié par maxernst, 26 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Aumata]

I can't really see that working in DA nor ME, as somebody said it would work for FPS. Though on a second thought Fable 1 &2 did the same thing, rarely any in game cut-scene. But having a dialogged wheel and no way of seeing character reactions, only following by the tone of their voice would be rather bizarre, and for me would have me stop caring.