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Cut scenes vs scripted sequences


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#26
Mr. Man

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maxernst wrote...


I don't see how having an interesting protagonist and making choices is affected by going to scripted sequences in place of cut scenes.  The cut scenes are already scripted sequences written in the engine--why do they have to control the camera angle and character position to give you dialog choices.  Maybe you wouldn't be able to have as much detail on animations if there was flexibility in the relative locations of the people, but they seem to be able to deal with you having different backgrounds and clothes etc.during dialog cut scenes with your companions without any difficulties.  I don't think cinematics are worth the decreased immersion and completely surrendering control of your character...or their disorienting effect in the ME games.

Besides, there are lots of cut scenes where you aren't making choices at all--pretty much any cut scene involving darkspawn, undead, or other mindless monsters. I don't really care in regular conversations, but they rarely have complicated cut scenes anyway. It's the situations that pop up in dungeons where my rogue is scouting ahead and it's seriously immersion-breaking for me and totally destroys my tactical set-up to suddenly be striding forward to talk to somebody with the rest of party magically appearing at my side.  It's not what my PC would do.

And after having played ME2, I can now see why people are worried that DA2 will be more like an interactive movie than a roleplaying game.    While I have said elsewhere that Bioware has always tended toward the cinematic in their games, i think they took it too far in ME2.

Going back to Half-Life, there were some great scenes--like when you're in the office complex and you can see the scientist through the window on the door about to be eaten by the barnacle.  There's another point where you first encounter the marines and what you see is the scientist thinking he's about to be rescued and then getting gunned down in front of you.  Even just the opening--you're on a train and can't really do anything but look around, but the (for the time) realistic environments and the audiotape informing you of job opportunities in various fields and finishing with "Black Mesa is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer" really added to the feeling of really being there.   I think the scenes are far more powerful because they don't stop the action and pull you out of the game to present them, they just happen in front of you, giving you the illusion that if you were just a little faster you could change things.  Sure, Half-Life's a different genre but I don't really see why the same style of presentation couldn't work.

As far as the war council, they could surely script Duncan to give you a severe talking to, if you decided to get up and walk around during that.


From what your describing; I think you would be happier with an FPS. There are plenty of games out there that fit all your criteria (like Half-life) but this is a RPG. Just accept that not all genres have to be made exactly the same as each other, Mass Effect is fantastic the way it is. Quite frankly I don't understand the whole "I feel trapped, in the cut-scene" arguement; if I never left the first person perspective, I'd feel just as trapped if not more. Also considering the story is the biggest component of both ME and DA, I think it's utterly silly to think that cinematics aren't important. You think I play ME for the combat? Of course not. I play for the story, and cinematics play a big role in bringing that story to life.

#27
Sylvius the Mad

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Mr. Man wrote...

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you.

Yes.  Absolutely.

#28
the_one_54321

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...
So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you.

Yes.  Absolutely.

Prepare to be thoroughly disappointed.

#29
Mr. Man

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you.

Yes.  Absolutely.


Play an FPS then. This genre isn't for you, I'm not even sure WHY your here

Modifié par Mr. Man, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:28 .


#30
AlanC9

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Mr. Man wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you.

Yes.  Absolutely.


Play an FPS then. This genre isn't for you, I'm not even sure WHY your here


Wait a minute. Who says that's a good feature in an FPS? I guess it offers a little pseudo-agency so the player doesn't realize he isn't actually doing anything in the scene, but does that really help?

I would have preferred going to cutscenes in HL2. I often missed a whole bunch of dialogue because I'd moved out of sound range before someone started talking, and the AI characters aren't sophisticated enough to notice that Gordon isn't paying attention before they talk to him.

I guess I'm just not a fan of games letting you do stuff that the game-world can't handle properly.

#31
Greed1914

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I figure that the scripted gameplay like what happened in Half-Life hasn't become popular because it has the potential to make players feel like the power is taken from them. I mean, I get annoyed whenever I play a fighting game and my reward for winning a fight is that my character actually loses in the story. What was the point of the effort?

#32
Dhiro

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

So let me get this straight- you would sacrifice cinematics, having an interesting protagonist, and making chioces, all so that you could- wait for it- move the camera angle around and wander around in circles next to whoever is talking to you.

Yes.  Absolutely.


I'd think you would prefer more dialogue choices than just the option to walk around. Why you would sacrifice this?

#33
Sylvius the Mad

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Mr. Man wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes.  Absolutely.

Play an FPS then. This genre isn't for you, I'm not even sure WHY your here

That's a first.  I'm generally complaining that RPGs are becoming too much like shooters (or adventure games), and not enough like RPGs.

Dhiro wrote...

I'd think you would prefer more dialogue choices than just the option to walk around. Why you would sacrifice this?

I really dislike that conversations now seem to exist somehow outside the game, so the UI disappears, and I lose camera control.  These things really take me out of the game.

And the suggestion that making choices and having agency are somehow opposed preferences is arrant nonsense.

Interesting characters?  The most interesting character to me is always mine, and I need control over him to make that so.

#34
Lord_Valandil

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Dear Maker...Sylvius is at it again XD

You're perseverant, I'll give you that.

#35
Sylvius the Mad

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Lord_Valandil wrote...

Dear Maker...Sylvius is at it again XD
You're perseverant, I'll give you that.

My preferences don't change.

#36
Lord_Valandil

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Dear Maker...Sylvius is at it again XD
You're perseverant, I'll give you that.

My preferences don't change.


Which is good. But I don't think the style of DA will change.
I think it's OK as it is now.

#37
Sylvius the Mad

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DAO was better than okay. DAO was good. It wasn't perfect, but it was good.

I want to prevent regression.

#38
Mr. Man

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DAO was better than okay. DAO was good. It wasn't perfect, but it was good.
I want to prevent regression.


you liked DA:O, really? But it had....cutscenes.....and chioces. How could such a blasphemous game interest you? (note sarcasm).

#39
Sylvius the Mad

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Choices are a good thing. But all cutscenes do is eliminate choice.

#40
Dhiro

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes.  Absolutely.

Play an FPS then. This genre isn't for you, I'm not even sure WHY your here

That's a first.  I'm generally complaining that RPGs are becoming too much like shooters (or adventure games), and not enough like RPGs.

Dhiro wrote...

I'd think you would prefer more dialogue choices than just the option to walk around. Why you would sacrifice this?

I really dislike that conversations now seem to exist somehow outside the game, so the UI disappears, and I lose camera control.  These things really take me out of the game.

And the suggestion that making choices and having agency are somehow opposed preferences is arrant nonsense.

Interesting characters?  The most interesting character to me is always mine, and I need control over him to make that so.


Actually, that-one-person (I'm too lazy to go look his/her name) asked if you would trade the right to make choices just to have agency (if I'm getting what you're trying to say), so I was thinking in this situation. But I suppose I can see your point.

#41
maxernst

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Mr. Man wrote...

maxernst wrote...


I don't see how having an interesting protagonist and making choices is affected by going to scripted sequences in place of cut scenes.  The cut scenes are already scripted sequences written in the engine--why do they have to control the camera angle and character position to give you dialog choices.  Maybe you wouldn't be able to have as much detail on animations if there was flexibility in the relative locations of the people, but they seem to be able to deal with you having different backgrounds and clothes etc.during dialog cut scenes with your companions without any difficulties.  I don't think cinematics are worth the decreased immersion and completely surrendering control of your character...or their disorienting effect in the ME games.

Besides, there are lots of cut scenes where you aren't making choices at all--pretty much any cut scene involving darkspawn, undead, or other mindless monsters. I don't really care in regular conversations, but they rarely have complicated cut scenes anyway. It's the situations that pop up in dungeons where my rogue is scouting ahead and it's seriously immersion-breaking for me and totally destroys my tactical set-up to suddenly be striding forward to talk to somebody with the rest of party magically appearing at my side.  It's not what my PC would do.

And after having played ME2, I can now see why people are worried that DA2 will be more like an interactive movie than a roleplaying game.    While I have said elsewhere that Bioware has always tended toward the cinematic in their games, i think they took it too far in ME2.

Going back to Half-Life, there were some great scenes--like when you're in the office complex and you can see the scientist through the window on the door about to be eaten by the barnacle.  There's another point where you first encounter the marines and what you see is the scientist thinking he's about to be rescued and then getting gunned down in front of you.  Even just the opening--you're on a train and can't really do anything but look around, but the (for the time) realistic environments and the audiotape informing you of job opportunities in various fields and finishing with "Black Mesa is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer" really added to the feeling of really being there.   I think the scenes are far more powerful because they don't stop the action and pull you out of the game to present them, they just happen in front of you, giving you the illusion that if you were just a little faster you could change things.  Sure, Half-Life's a different genre but I don't really see why the same style of presentation couldn't work.

As far as the war council, they could surely script Duncan to give you a severe talking to, if you decided to get up and walk around during that.


From what your describing; I think you would be happier with an FPS. There are plenty of games out there that fit all your criteria (like Half-life) but this is a RPG. Just accept that not all genres have to be made exactly the same as each other, Mass Effect is fantastic the way it is. Quite frankly I don't understand the whole "I feel trapped, in the cut-scene" arguement; if I never left the first person perspective, I'd feel just as trapped if not more. Also considering the story is the biggest component of both ME and DA, I think it's utterly silly to think that cinematics aren't important. You think I play ME for the combat? Of course not. I play for the story, and cinematics play a big role in bringing that story to life.


Umm...no, I prefer RPGs and always have.  Half-Life is about as pure an FPS as I've actually liked--in part, because I happen to think that it handled storytelling in a more immersive way.  Its actual story is not particularly compelling, but its storytelling is exceptional.  This is not true of most FPS's..though I would also say it of System Shock 2.  My complaint about ME has nothing to do with it being a roleplaying game.  I just find stopping the game to show you a movie--which happens four or five times in one combat sequence in ME (the Matriarch Benezia fight) extremely disruptive.  And at least two of them don't offer you any dialogue options, nor do they progress the storyline in any way.  Honestly, it's not the conversation cut scenes that irritate me, it's the ones that trigger automatically when you arrive at point B. It seems to me you would be happier watching a movie than playing a game. 

I also can't imagine why you have this idea that a first-person perspective is somehow inimical to roleplaying.  Ever played Ultima Underworld? It's a terrific roleplaying game.  All of Bioware's games have the player represented by a single avatar, so their games would theoretically work fine from a first-person perspective from a story-telling angle.  The only reason that a third person perspective works better for DA:O is it would be too hard to control your companions in first person and the A.I. isn't good enough.   So for the time being, 3rd person with a free camera is the way it has to be for squad-based single-player RPG's.  But it's because of the combat style, not the storytelling, that first person isn't convenient.

#42
Sylvius the Mad

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maxernst wrote...

Ever played Ultima Underworld? It's a terrific roleplaying game.

Ultima Underworld is on my list of the top 5 games of all-time.  Wonderful game.

#43
soteria

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I would have preferred going to cutscenes in HL2. I often missed a whole bunch of dialogue because I'd moved out of sound range before someone started talking, and the AI characters aren't sophisticated enough to notice that Gordon isn't paying attention before they talk to him.


Thief was the same way, but it had an excuse: the player was supposed to be clever enough to stay close enough to hear dialogue without being detected.

Ultima Underworld is on my list of the top 5 games of all-time. Wonderful game.


Hmm, I'm guessing BG, BG2, and maybe Fallout are three others?

#44
maxernst

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In Sylvius' defense, it's worth mentioning that the fact that you're critical of a particular aspect of something doesn't mean that you hate it. A game doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable. I consider DA:O to be a great game, certainly among the top 10 RPG's I've played. I even like the Mass Effect games, although I have a laundry list of complaints about them. I actually find it peculiar when people seem to think a particular game was the best in all aspects (even when it's the holy Baldur's Gate 2). I'm not sure I've seen a game that excelled in every aspect.



I've never suggested that I even liked Half-Life overall better than DA:O. They're difficult to compare and I'd have to think about it, to be honest. I certainly have not suggested that I wanted to make the game similar to Half-Life, except in this one particular sense. There are certain times when cut scenes are necessary. Even the Half-Life games used them, but overuse of them can make me feel like I'm watching a story rather than participating in it.

#45
Sylvius the Mad

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soteria wrote...

Ultima Underworld is on my list of the top 5 games of all-time. Wonderful game.

Hmm, I'm guessing BG, BG2, and maybe Fallout are three others?

Only BG.  Not BG2.

Ultima IV
Wasteland
Ultima Underworld
Baldur's Gate
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

Nothing released in the last 12 years has cracked my top 5.

#46
ErichHartmann

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DAO was better than okay. DAO was good. It wasn't perfect, but it was good.
I want to prevent regression.


You advocate regression with your views.  I'm sure you would be content if computer games and technology were still them same as 20 years ago.     

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .


#47
Sylvius the Mad

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ErichHartmann wrote...

I'm sure you would be content if computer games and technology were still them same as 20 years ago.

In some respects, yes.  There were some common features in old CRPGs that I prefer, but they no longer appear.

However, I do quite like the move to 3D environments (not that that's new - Ultima Underworld had 3D environments in 1989).  Being able to rotate the world in NWN was a big step forward, and I wouldn't like to go back to true isometrics.

That a feature is new (or old) tells us nothing about its quality.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:28 .


#48
Xewaka

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri


Great game. Pity about the right ownership mess preventing a sequel.

#49
Beerfish

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...



Interesting characters?  The most interesting character to me is always mine, and I need control over him to make that so.


I think this is where you differ from most people and thus have opposing views.  The most interesting chracters for me is anyone other than my own character.  I can shape my character most any way I want, even within game constraints.  The things that interest me are the other characters in the game and I'm more than willing to put up with a little crimping of my style to learn as much about them as possible.

In almost any genre of storytelling book or game or movie the more tightly controlled the author has things the better job they can do of telling an engrossing story and developing interesting characters.  The less control the storymaker has the harder it is to develop story and characters. 

#50
Sylvius the Mad

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Beerfish wrote...

I think this is where you differ from most people and thus have opposing views.  The most interesting chracters for me is anyone other than my own character.  I can shape my character most any way I want, even within game constraints.  The things that interest me are the other characters in the game and I'm more than willing to put up with a little crimping of my style to learn as much about them as possible.

In almost any genre of storytelling book or game or movie the more tightly controlled the author has things the better job they can do of telling an engrossing story and developing interesting characters.  The less control the storymaker has the harder it is to develop story and characters. 

I don't think you can ever really know other people.  As such, in stories about other people (basically all books) what is interesting is what they do, not who they are.

RPGs allow us to investigate who the characters are like no other art form because we're actually able to know our characters' minds.