288 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

MrFob wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except we have no reason to believe it will be. By their own admission, Retribution isn't canon, so there's no reason for it to be. It's a work that takes place assuming Shepard has made a specific choice, but that's about as canonical as the 'default Shepard canon' theory a few months back which people insisted made all their choices irrelevant.

There isn't a canon. Retribution isn't a ret-con. What is the basis of worrying?

Sorry if I missed something here but as far as I can tell, apart from one single sentence in Retribution (which I choose to ignore because this line ironically doesn't add anything to the plot of the book), every written ME work (the 3 novels and the 3 comics (Redemption, Incursion and Inquisition)) work well, regardless of he decisions Shep makes in either game. Is that correct? Are we arguing over that one particular line?

That is incorrect, sorta.

The Mass Effect story line, as it relates to Shepard and his/her choices, does not have a canon as reflected by Retribution. Elements of Retribution might as well be considered a canonical path in the sense of 'if Shepard chose Udina as Councilor, this would happen,' but Shepard choosing Udina is not the canon, a 'everyone elses decisions that conflict with this are wrong/irrelevant/will be retconned', and neither are the events of Retribution as written. Anderson taking part in hunting down Cerberus as depicted won't happen if he was selected as Councilor, according to the email reply.

How this will be handled for Anderson-choosers remains to be seen.

If it helps you, think of Retribution as a cannon path... if Shepard chose Udina. If Anderson was chosen, it isn't. Things that don't conflict with Shepard's actions/nature can be relied upon. Things that do, do not overwrite.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:13 .

[MrFob]

Oh wow, I don't want to get into a discussion about the definition of cannon (neither here nor in the 'Udina is Councilor' thread).
(EDIT: Thnaks D_t_Y for posting DKs mail there btw, didn't see that one before.)
All I wanted to say is, that the only problem is one frikkin line in the book. Everything else is consistent with any decision you as a player can make. Therefore I don't see a significant problem.

Modifié par MrFob, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:18 .

[masterkajo]

Udina knows what's best for humanity... anyone thinking he might know TIM a bit too well?

Anyway, I am looking forward to how this Councilor Udina think is about to influence ME3.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Still, Karpyshyn says that Retribution only canonically happens if Udina is chosen by Shepard to become humanity's Councilor. Personally I think I'd like it if the upcoming book, let's call it Salvation for now, chronicles what would happen if Anderson was chosen and remained Councilor. Mostly because it would fit the whole duality aspect of Mass Effect's morality system: now actually showing us how much Shepard's choices affect the universe around him/her.

[PROKNIFER69]

Lizardviking wrote...

Udina knows whats best for humanity.

Anderson knows whats best for Udina. A fist to the face!

[Dean_the_Young]

I like the idea, but disagree as to the direction: Retribution struck me as the setting of a Paragon world (bar the Anderson choice): no mention of keeping the base (and of the great technology within, as opposed to possible scraps), Turian cooperation,and Cerberus being portrayed as having been dealt a body blow, when the fear from the end of ME2 was that it would be incredibly more powerful and influential... which we really didn't see.



A duality would be great, but I think we already saw the dark side of a Paragon path. Why not the bright side of a Renegade path?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

[Dean_the_Young]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

That's certainly the implication from this. Retribution is based off of assuming Udina is councilor... but that  is not canon or a retcon.


Some variation of Retribution may occur regardless, but what we saw? Anderson an integral part of the firefight? No.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, what various people have sometimes done in various other situations must apply here as well.

Got it. Totally authoritative. A great and definitive basis for this concern.

Solid predictions are based on patterns of previous events. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, what various people have sometimes done in various other situations must apply here as well.

Got it. Totally authoritative. A great and definitive basis for this concern.

Solid predictions are based on patterns of previous events. 

Selective remembrances of past data do not make patterns.

[cachx]

Drew wrote...
Hopefully the Mass Effect fans will understand our position and not get

too bent out of shape.

:D

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, what various people have sometimes done in various other situations must apply here as well.

Got it. Totally authoritative. A great and definitive basis for this concern.

Solid predictions are based on patterns of previous events. 

Selective remembrances of past data do not make patterns.

Don't bother trying to make a claim to knowledge you cannot possess, Deano.  It's transparent.   You have no way of knowing what you're claiming to know right there.

[Fiery Phoenix]

The best part is, this was literally one of the very few decisions that seemed to actually bear fruit and result in something. Was it really necessary to shaft it?



Like we need even more of this. I think I have lost complete interest in reading Retribution at this point.

[Kaiser Shepard]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The best part is, this was literally one of the very few decisions that seemed to actually bear fruit and result in something. Was it really necessary to shaft it?

Like we need even more of this. I think I have lost complete interest in reading Retribution at this point.

Well, they did do the same with Dragon Age already...

I think I might refrain myself from purchasing and/or reading Retribution as well, at least until this whole paradox is cleared up.

[Spectre_907]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...
Actually Drew Karpyshyn said that Anderson could not have stepped down if he was councilor. Udina must be the councilor if Retribution is to occur. Go here.

Either the events of Retribution do not exist if Anderson is made councilor or Udina as councilor has to be forced as canon. I'm thinking that the former is the route that is going to be taken with imports into ME3.

Or the events of Retribution are changed in a timeline where Anderson is Councilor, and we're simply given what happened in a time he isn't. Remember the line in the same reply:


But this isn't really a "ret-con", as there was no established canon in

the first place.


ME1 and ME2 have a lot of choices were different paths largely end up at the same point, even though the paths inbetween them were unquestionably different. The side material is not necessarily different: remember, Retribution makes no differentiation between letting the Council live or if you killed them. The Turians help regardless.

Maybe Retribution doesn't occur if you picked Councilor Anderson (a metagaming best reason yet to pick him). Maybe Retribution occurs with different names and roles. Until ME3 or futher word, we don't know...

...but we have no basis to assume a ret-con where there isn't one. Retribution is an expansion of the ME universe based off of one path in particular, with pieces that can be interesting to everyone. At the moment, nothing more should be read into it.


Retribution isn't a ret-con of your story. Retribution is in a timeline all of tis own.

I actually say that in a later post (poorly worded though)

Spectre_907 wrote...
I wouldn't call it canon though since we do not have any connection to ME3 established so I'd say it is an either or thing. Things like Ascension and Revelation had a connection based on Tali and Anderson's dialogue.

and here.

With regard to whether those who choose Anderson get an alternate explantion or do not get the events at all, the email seems to suggest that Retribution could only happen provided Anderson is not the councilor. At the very least, the events leading up to Kahlee contacting Anderson about Grayson's capture in Retribution could exist in a universe where Anderson is made councilor.

My guess: We'll get an alternate explanation to events following.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 28 octobre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, what various people have sometimes done in various other situations must apply here as well.

Got it. Totally authoritative. A great and definitive basis for this concern.

Solid predictions are based on patterns of previous events. 

Selective remembrances of past data do not make patterns.

Don't bother trying to make a claim to knowledge you cannot possess, Deano.  It's transparent.   You have no way of knowing what you're claiming to know right there.

I'm not making a claim about non-provided data. You were. Support it.

[doagrl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

That's certainly the implication from this. Retribution is based off of assuming Udina is councilor... but that  is not canon or a retcon.


Some variation of Retribution may occur regardless, but what we saw? Anderson an integral part of the firefight? No.

I don't think that's what he meant in that email at all. Drew seems to be explaining why they had to "canonize" Udina as the Councilor in Retribution since the story wouldn't have made sense if Anderson was the Councilor.

He's not saying that Retribution exists as some alt universe ME story only for those people who chose Udina in the first place. That would make no sense at all since that is a complete turn around from the way the other novels have worked. Not to mention that if Retribution was alt universe then Inquisition and everything flowing from that would also be alt universe which again doesn't make any sense at all.

I think that what has been done is done; Udina is the Councilor and all the stories that flow from that point are valid for all Shepards. Unfortunately that just leaves the people who didn't choose Udina from the start in need of an explanation about why Anderson is no longer the Councilor. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Where in that email did you see 'this is a retcon' or 'this is canon'?

[doagrl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where in that email did you see 'this is a retcon' or 'this is canon'?

What he said is that the Councilor decision wasn't a ret-con because it wasn't established canon. But now it is established canon because he made it canon when he put it in his book.

There are things that are canon in the Mass Effect stories which is why they have always tried so hard to keep elements of the story that deal directly with in-game decisions as vague as possible.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, what various people have sometimes done in various other situations must apply here as well.

Got it. Totally authoritative. A great and definitive basis for this concern.

Solid predictions are based on patterns of previous events. 

Selective remembrances of past data do not make patterns.

Don't bother trying to make a claim to knowledge you cannot possess, Deano.  It's transparent.   You have no way of knowing what you're claiming to know right there.

I'm not making a claim about non-provided data. You were. Support it.

Don't accuse people of "selective remembrances" if you can't back it up.

[KainrycKarr]

Kind of annoyed with so many human characters in the spotlight. Seriously, humanity is way too new to be in total control of the galaxy.

[MrFob]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

That's certainly the implication from this. Retribution is based off of assuming Udina is councilor... but that  is not canon or a retcon.


Some variation of Retribution may occur regardless, but what we saw? Anderson an integral part of the firefight? No.

Seeing how Revelation as treated in ME1 and how the quarians mention Ascension in EM2, I am pretty sure, the events of Retribution will referenced in ME3 and their consequences (Anderson and Sanders as a team, investigating the reapers) will be the seen in the game (especially since it allows BW to put Udina into the councilor position, no matter what). IMO that makes Retribution an integral part of the ME universe and not some alternate scenario and again, we end up having to ignore one statement in the book if we chose Anderson as council member.

[RiouHotaru]

Shandepared wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

That's certainly the implication from this. Retribution is based off of assuming Udina is councilor... but that  is not canon or a retcon.


Some variation of Retribution may occur regardless, but what we saw? Anderson an integral part of the firefight? No.

To me that email sounds like the whole thing is a retcon. However I don't think it's hopeless. If you choose Anderson as Councilor then one could easily later have Anderson explain that after you met him on the Citadel he stepped down from the Council and Udina took his place. Anderson stayed on as his advisor for a while and then left when the whole thing with Cerberus went down.

Except that Drew said that if Anderson is Councilor he can't step down.  As he's one of the main writers, I'll take his statement as Word of God.  Which makes Retribution/Inquisition one possible set of events that can take place in a player's canon.  But it's obviously not mandatory.

Which means Pallin is alive.  Yay~

[Killjoy Cutter]

MrFob wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Dean, are you saying that Retribution happens in and only in a universe where Shepard has picked Udina?

That's certainly the implication from this. Retribution is based off of assuming Udina is councilor... but that  is not canon or a retcon.


Some variation of Retribution may occur regardless, but what we saw? Anderson an integral part of the firefight? No.

Seeing how Revelation as treated in ME1 and how the quarians mention Ascension in EM2, I am pretty sure, the events of Retribution will referenced in ME3 and their consequences (Anderson and Sanders as a team, investigating the reapers) will be the seen in the game (especially since it allows BW to put Udina into the councilor position, no matter what). IMO that makes Retribution an integral part of the ME universe and not some alternate scenario and again, we end up having to ignore one statement in the book if we chose Anderson as council member.

Which came first, Revelation or ME1?