1010 réponses à ce sujet

[Tamyn]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Also consider the fact that DA2 is supposed to take place before, during and after DA:O. It's like recasting a role in the middle of the movie. First she's played by, oh say, Angelina Jolie. Then in scene two she's Jennifer Garner. Then Jolie. Then Garner. Then Jolie. Then Rosie O'Donnell. Then Jolie. It breaks immersion when you see a character that keeps drastically changing appearance for no real reason ('just because we can' isn't really a good reason in my book but YMMV) in the middle of the story.

Unless you're planning on playing DA:O simultaneous with DA2 and constantly intercutting between the two AND staying camped in the Pearl in Denerim while you're at it, the character design changes exactly once--between DA:O and DA2.  

Plus, when Hawke meets Isabela is likely to be years after the Warden would ever run into her. Hawke is very young when fleeing Denerim, yes? And the game spans 10 years.

[tmp7704]

Saibh wrote...

Really, it's only the lips. I have no problem with a heavier jaw and chin or brows, but her lips don't look right on her face.

Mostly they're placed too high as a result of nose being too small. Regular human face is like this:



- eyes are in the middle of the head
- nose fills the upper half of the bottom half of the head, starting from eye line
- the lips are placed in the middle of area from tip of the nose to bottom of the head

In Isabela's case the upper lip begins almost where the nose should end instead, while they should rather be near where her piercing is placed. That's what causing the "large chin/jaw" impression.

Thing is, this seems to be quite common for the DA2 characters shown so far, i wonder if it's a side-effect of changes they gave to their character creation.

edit: the wallpaper cgi version of the character doesn't suffer from this, just the in-game version.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Tamyn]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

FitShaced wrote...

I the only one who see's this?

You are absolutely the only person on the face of the earth who sees that.

I see it too. So

Modifié par Tamyn, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Annihilator27]

Hmmm I wonder If shell be even more kinkier. Then again eevryone has been on that boat.

[Eshaye]

I like the redesign of Isabella, but not her face... Toolset for DA2 yes? I hope so..



In don't like the comment that BioWare choose to completely ignore how she looked like before because she was a minor character, I'm sorry but you should envision that your game speaks enough to people to not ignore details like this.



I'm not arguing whether she's attractive or not, it's more an issue of consistency in this case. For that matter Flemeth also looks way more femme fatale of an advanced age then the old hermit woman we knew in Origins... O.o The entire art direction is different.

[nijnij]

There's no logic to the human face, otherwise everyone would look the same. As long as she doesn't look cartoonish, it's fine.

[tmp7704]

nijnij wrote...

There's no logic to the human face, otherwise everyone would look the same.

This is simply not true. Attend any drawing course or just do a quick search for "face proportions" and you'll find there's basic guidelines to how human face and body is built.

There's individual variations of course, but they're within certain limits. You don't meet many humans for example with eyes on their forehead, do you?

[Saibh]

nijnij wrote...

On the contrary, I think lips that are full without being wide are good for giving a rebellious look. drew Barrymore's a fine example.

I'd agree with you if it looked natural--it's not that I dislike having smaller, fuller lips on a character, or having a wide jaw or prominent chin, it's that her face looks unnatural and cartoonish with those lips. They don't look like they fit on her correctly--tmp pointed out why. 

[tmp7704]

Incidentally Drew Barrymore has pretty wide lips

(http://upload.wikime...rymoreFeb09.jpg if linking doesn't work)



see how the corners go all way past the mid-point of the eye? That's pretty wide for a human (or at least typical)

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Tamyn]

Find a picture where she's not smiling.

Here you go:



Her mouth is not much wider than her nose. Mine is similar.

Modifié par Tamyn, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:16 .

[tmp7704]

Tamyn wrote...

Find a picture where she's not smiling.

http://www.thelatest...w-barrymore.jpg



(the one you posted is airbrushed to the point where i wouldn't trust any features to remain accurate. Part of the industry charm, unfortunately)

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Saibh]

In comparison with her jaw and the placement on her face are far more natural. Her face doesn't look surreal because her jaw isn't much wider than her mouth, and her lips aren't where her nose should end.

It's not really about "small lips" look bad, at least for me. It's that they look unnatural on Isabela's face.

EDIT: Here. They look evenly proportioned--on the small side, though.

Modifié par Saibh, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Tamyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

(the one you posted is airbrushed to the point where i wouldn't trust any features to remain accurate. Part of the industry charm, unfortunately)

Airbrushing erases wrinkles and blemishes and minimizes the nose. The intention is to draw more attention to the eyes and mouth. They don't diminish the lips.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

[quote]Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

[quote]RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...


Let's be right upfront here.  Perfect-Kenshin is describing masterbatory aids, imported_beer is talking about beauty.[/quote]

We're describing the same thing. I used the somewhat vague masturbation analogy as a reference to what most men (or rather, the target audience) perceive in fictional character beauty. Obviously, if I got to know someone beyond what a fictional character can inform, this could easily be an instance of beauty transcending physical appearance. However, in the midst of people who don't even exist (not to mention are quite shallow, as this Isabela seems to be), one's paradigm is likely to be much different.
[/quote]

Totally disagree.  From how I read those two posts, the two of you are very much describing different things.  imported_beer said an unusual appearance can be another facet of a beautiful person.  In reference to Isabela, you said you didn't want to see ugly women, only attractive ones.  I agree with you that a good personality can make up for maybe not being a supermodel, but you then went on to say she's shallow... so aren't you just saying Isabela's ugly again?



[quote]
[quote]As for beauty, if every woman in DA2 were Victoria Secret models, then stand-out beauty would no longer mean anything.[/quote]Given that this is a video game, I'm inclined to disagree. If anything, it'd merely create more complaints (because we definately don't have enough of those) on there not being enough romances.
[/quote]

I guess we're going to have to settle on disagreeing here.    I think if all the DAO chicks were modeled after women that fell out of a naughty magazine they would start to blend into each other.  Not to mention they'd be so shorty and flat.  (rim shot)


[quote]
[quote]She's not the one that admitted masterbating to a video game.   

[/quote]

Your cruel japes will be[/i] remembered, ser. If you hear sobbing later, that's me crying myself to sleep.

But seriously, I never said anything about masturbating to a video game (although at a younger age, I wouldn't put it past myself). My point was that sex sells. People go into a movie theater and want the heroine to be attractive not because they intend to masturbate in the movie theater.

[/quote]
[/quote]
But but... that's why I go to the....  Nevermind!    

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Brockololly]

tmp7704 wrote..

In Isabela's case the upper lip begins almost where the nose should end instead, while they should rather be near where her piercing is placed. That's what causing the "large chin/jaw" impression.

Thing is, this seems to be quite common for the DA2 characters shown so far, i wonder if it's a side-effect of changes they gave to their character creation.

edit: the wallpaper cgi version of the character doesn't suffer from this, just the in-game version.

Yeah, even Cassandra, Lady Hawke, Varric and Carver seem to suffer from puffy chin/jaw syndrome. It has nothing to do with them being hot or ugly, its just that their faces are out of whack with anatomical norms. It reminds me of some of the comically bad faces on people in Awakening. Its like everything is too scrunched up in the middle of her face.

I really hope its not something endemic to the new face morph system, but it kind of seems that way.

[tmp7704]

Tamyn wrote...

Airbrushing erases wrinkles and blemishes and minimizes the nose. The intention is to draw more attention to the eyes and mouth. They don't diminish the lips.

The point being the image is heavily retouched. The airbrushing is the most obvious part of it, but it doesn't exclude possible tweaks made to size and placement of individual features if they are deemed not "ideal" enough. Air-quotes for "ideal" fully intended.

[Ryzaki]

DA's character creator was fine as modders like Dracomies shown. BW just couldn't make pretty faces for anyone that wasn't a companion. Or Anora.

...Ah well. There's at least a chance for some modders to fix it at the very least.

Also I can't help but hope that someone stabs her in the inner thigh or kicks her in the crotch with a steel boot. Vindictive I know but I always think such things when people fight in outfits like that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:24 .

[steelfire_dragon]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Put on some pants.

Pants are an unnecessary inconvenience. Ask any number of my friends.

you know the differnece about wearing a kilt and a pair of pants?

its easier to run with kilt up, than you pants down

[DragonRageGT]

TLDR

The only problem with this is that, if this were a movie, she's a lot more Tara Lynn than Penelope Cruz or even María José de Pablo Fernández (Cote de Pablo). So, that's a lot more an "Elizabeth" than an "Isabela", if you know what I'm saying.

(Zevran disapproves: -100)

Modifié par RageGT, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .

[TJPags]

imported_beer wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What if she just looked, you know, like she did when they FIRST showed her to us?.

I am not arguing against people who don't like the aesthetics of her. Beauty is subjective, and not every character is going to be equally appealing to all. If you prefered what she looked like, that is fair.

Now of course, a lot of men would like to romance the conventionally attractive, cookie cutter women, but the presence of Isabela doesn't mean, conventionally pretty women do not exist in the game (edit- to romance, that is). Surely, it wouldn't kill them to see if there is an NPC who is more aesthetically to their tastes before falling on their sword and threatening to gouge out their eyes and blame Bioware for ruining their escapist fantasies? (Not you, but some others have)

There ARE people who'd rather romance the woman with attitude even if she doesn't have aesthetically perfect looks. To them maybe Isabela is exotic, a firebrand... and perfectly desirable. There are even people who think she is already plenty attractive in this very thread. By harping on and on that every single woman in the game doesn't fit a precise model of one's own individual ideals of physical perfections seems a bit much.

/All IMO.

First, you're absolutely entitled to your opinion.
I said in another post, I really don't care what she looks like - she's a character in a video game, not some girl I just saw across a crowded room.
My problem with her is that, IMO, she looks NOTHING like the character we met in DAO, yet she's supposed to be the same person.  Change the hairstyle, the clothes, even hair color, that's okay - but she looks nothing like the Isabela we saw in the Pearl.  And frankly, IMO, that's kind of silly.

TS2Aggie wrote...
For me personally it's not that she's "ugly", it's that she looks absolutely nothing like Isabela from DA:O. Nothing. Not a shred of anything to suggest that they're supposed to be the same person. If a dev hadn't come out and said it, I'd have simply thought she was just a new companion we'd never heard of before.

Also consider the fact that DA2 is supposed to take place before, during and after DA:O. It's like recasting a role in the middle of the movie. First she's played by, oh say, Angelina Jolie. Then in scene two she's Jennifer Garner. Then Jolie. Then Garner. Then Jolie. Then Rosie O'Donnell. Then Jolie. It breaks immersion when you see a character that keeps drastically changing appearance for no real reason ('just because we can' isn't really a good reason in my book but YMMV) in the middle of the story.

This kind of sums it up for me.  She's supposed to be the same person, yet she looks completely different - and it's more than hair color or style or anything - that's a completely different face, body, etc.  A different person.  And it's kind of silly.

Bioware felt like changing her, and it's their game, so they can do that.  But they should have just made her a new person, with a new name, etc.

[tmp7704]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, even Cassandra, Lady Hawke, Varric and Carver seem to suffer from puffy chin/jaw syndrome. It has nothing to do with them being hot or ugly, its just that their faces are out of whack with anatomical norms. It reminds me of some of the comically bad faces on people in Awakening. Its like everything is too scrunched up in the middle of her face.

I really hope its not something endemic to the new face morph system, but it kind of seems that way.

I think male Hawke has that too actually, it's just in his case the effect is masked by the beard. But if you look at the bottom edge of the beard as sign where the chin may end... then even with some decent margin for error it's pretty massive too.

[Tamyn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tamyn wrote...

Airbrushing erases wrinkles and blemishes and minimizes the nose. The intention is to draw more attention to the eyes and mouth. They don't diminish the lips.

The point being the image is heavily retouched. The airbrushing is the most obvious part of it, but it doesn't exclude possible tweaks made to size and placement of individual features if they are deemed not "ideal" enough. Air-quotes for "ideal" fully intended.

Siabh's pic  here is a better example then. It proves the same point.

They also can't do too much modification of the facial features or the face would be unrecognizable. I don't think they'd change the size of her eyes, nose and mouth. Maybe if she was some unknown model, but not Drew Barrymore. I can see in the pic I posted that they didn't mess with the "imperfect" asymmetry of Drew's nose and eyes.

Modifié par Tamyn, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:33 .

[the_one_54321]

imported_beer wrote...
stuff...
more stuff...

You make some excellent points and by far the strongest argument for "leave her as she is" that has come up in this thread. Personally I wonder how well such an approach could work in the context of an interactive story driven RPG. In a movie, a book, a comic even I'd be enthusiastically agreeing with you. I'm sure that any fans of Jack would claim that it can be done rather well, and they may make an excellent argument as well. So in response to all of your questions and suggestions...

No, I don't think I could get bored with only standard female beauties. It's a video game. They're not real people.

It could be that your thoughts on making her reservations about looks part of the story could yeild something really interesting.

It's true that we don't have any idea what other options there might be for romances. And we don't know the context of this one. What we do know is that she is Isabela and that we have pictures of her. That's all any of my statements could be based on and it's entirely possible they are rendered invalid at a later date.

Now then. Since you are so vehemently in oposition to my possition, I wonder what you think about the idea that all of this can be completely separate from actual views and values concerning what is beautiful and of quality in a woman? At least one of the ladies here said that such comments make women feel unwelcome in gaming communities. However I said multiple times that this opinion of mine only applied because it's a video game and thus, as you put it, escapism. If it were real life my opinions would be rather turned on their head.

tmp7704 wrote...
Picture of face proportions
Picture of Drew Barrymore

This one actually gave me pause for thought. It is true that some of Isabela's other images paint her a little better. Could be that the big closeup image was just done in really really terrible lighting. Also, if her chin isn't too big, then her lips are definitely too small.